We are so weak mentally and physically

This is going to get worse. They can't clear a ball.

We just need to get out of this game lol

The first match I saw progress. I saw it against BHA too, just didn't get the result to go with it.

This has been a massive regression.

Old Trafford does not seem happy with Marcus. Personally, I think before this game he was putting in more effort this year than last. But he's not done as well this year as Garnacho or Amad. And no one has been very good this game.

Can see why they like Collyer but being forced to put him on at HT against Liverpool is really indicative how bad the situation is at CM. Ugarte will help hopefully but it still needs so much work.

Hey in fairness that was a pretty good chance from Rashford to Zirkzee. Just didn't connect.

Sir Jim doesn't look like he's having a very fun time.

You missed the first half… Collyer has been much better than Casemiro. It was very very bad.

For the record, I'm just going off the boos when Amad subbed Garnacho. I don't think they are booing Garnacho or Amad. I kind of don't think it is fair, but there does seem to be some toxicity around Marcus at the moment. I keep hoping he gets a run of luck and form, but it obviously won't be today.

Oh I'm sure he was better based strictly off the 1st half reactions I saw. My comment was more around how he played. He did some really good things. That knock down header they gave Zirkzee an opportunity, won the ball back a few times with some smart presses...but he also was a bit slow reacting and tactically naive at times. But hey, it's Liverpool and it's his first big senior appearance so I get it. The fact that he was a marked improvement over Casemiro is a massive indictment of Casemiro. The fact that he was the next line in line is a massive indictment of the depth in midfield.

Yeah I disagree. We didn't panic in game 1. But we still played poorly for 75 minutes. I think people have been lying to themselves. It's like here's Sir Jim. Things must be better. Reality is that EtH's Man United play poorly more often than not.

I don't know who he plugs in to play Mount's position in a strikerless formation but, even if Mount is injured, I doubt he plays a forward next time he faces an above average team.

The other discouraging thing is that, based on the limited time I saw, the backline which is the area that was most improved during the transfer window was really poor. Both center backs made some really bad giveaways. Outside backs looked overrun and overwhelmed. All stemming from a midfield that was just completely irrelevant.

I did not know about the exchange detailed in the link below. Kind of reminded me a bit of Wenger or Benitez getting defensive at media questioning. Generally when stuff like this happens, it's a good indication that the manager is on an irreversible path to doom unless they have a lot of good will banked due to incredible success and while ETH likes to point to those cup victories, that's not near enough credit. Not in the modern game anyway.

https://www.football365.com/news/man-utd-ten-hag-hits-out-reporter-six-mistakes

Jason Davis made the point after the Fulham and Brighton matches that United are capable of beating top teams when they play perfectly under EtH. But when they don't play perfectly they don't win. And that's the big issue here. You'll never play perfectly every game. It sounds trite. But they don't play well enough on the average days.

3 matches in and we already have the dreaded vote of confidence.

"Do we still believe in? Erik? Absolutely. We think Erik is the right coach for us and we're fully backing him."

When they inevitably fire him by Christmas, it will make the summer dance look even more ridiculous than it was.

Omar Berrada & Dan Ashworth reveal Man Utd's plans for Erik ten Hag - Yahoo Sports

A daily I subscribe to (The Transfer Flow) summarized it well in their analysis of Mainoo last month and describes where we are at the moment.

https://www.thetransferflow.com/p/united-management-thinks-mainoo-better-xavi

Quote:

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Pick out any star central midfielder you'd like to compare Mainoo to, and they probably started looking like one of their club's best players a year or two older than Mainoo is right now. Steven Gerrard debut at 18, made the leap at 20. Xavi debut at 18, made the leap at 21. Luka Modric debut at 19, arguably didn't properly make the leap until 22.

And yet, Manchester United have put themselves in a situation where their success is predicated on Mainoo making that leap right now, at age 19, with 2500 minutes of pro experience. I think he's talented enough that this is possible, but we have a lot of history to suggest he likely needs one more year, even if he's on a Ballon d'Or-type trajectory.

---

Mainoo was poor Sunday. Which is fine...he's 19. It's going to happen and expecting it not to happen is expecting him to be better than some of the all time great center mids. And when that happens, it's compounded by Casemiro's skill falling off a cliff and having two options who aren't really central midfielders (Eriksen and Mount) and a bunch of academy players who have next to no first team experience.

It's an abysmal midfield and it does no favors to Mainoo to burden him with this. He should be starting 20-25 games a year and have at least a little room for error without the entire midfield and game collapsing if he plays poorly. Ugarte should help...it remains to be seen exactly how much. But even if he amazes, he's not a magic bullet. He can hopefully make it easier for Mainoo but he can't take over any of his responsibilities.

Anyway, I think it was indeed easy to gloss over that fact above over the summer because the previous transfer seasons were so bad and United did improve pretty much everywhere. The midfield started in an abysmal place and did not improve talentwise nearly enough to solve the problems. I still think United had a very good window. I still think Ugarte will help. But I still think they need at least two more real central midfielders (i.e. not square attacking mids who are plugged into a round central midfielder hole) who are capable of playing in the EPL before things in that part of the pitch get better.

Mainoo was actually OK (relative to everyone else) until I cursed him by saying it on the thread. Then the wheels completely fell off.

I saw an average position chart, and our back line was WAY back on average position and our front three were WAY forward. Our shape was good against Fulham and actually pretty good against Brighton. Sunday was awful. I don't want to give Jamie Carragher any credit, but he's kind of right, we can't play a high frontline and a low backline, with basically two midfielders (Bruno might as well be a fourth forward) and expect to get away with it on games where we can't dominate possession.

And I'll say one other thing: in the average position chart against Liverpool (going off memory) the highest player was Marcus, even ahead of Zirkzee. At this point, I don't think we can really blame Marcus because he can't just be deciding not to run back on his own. But it's really confusing because it's not like Liverpool just got Trent and Mo Salah last week. And let's be real: Trent isn't there for his suffocating defense, is he? I think the plan was to pull Casemiro over to help cover them, but that plan didn't go very well. We got murdered on their right (our left). And Dalot is playing on his unnatural side. I don't know, man, the plan was really really poor.

I still think ten Hag can turn it around, but he's in a bad spot. Next four PL games are Southampton away, Palace away, Spurs home, Villa away. With only 3 points out of the first 9, minimum is 7 out of 12, and really 9 for me to feel OK about our chances for top 4. The next four games after the next international break are more manageable, but he needs to figure things out really quick in my opinion or things can get really uncomfortable really fast.

Actually I went and found the chart. The only players covering the back left were Martinez and Dalot; Casemiro was shaded to the right; it's crazy how exposed we were on the left against one of the best right wingers in the world. Maybe we were thinking we could torture them with Marcus as much as they did with Salah, but… that didn't happen. (Again, I want to emphasize that I think people are being unfair to Rashford).

Showstopper said:

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Actually I went and found the chart. The only players covering the back left were Martinez and Dalot; Casemiro was shaded to the right; it's crazy how exposed we were on the left against one of the best right wingers in the world. Maybe we were thinking we could torture them with Marcus as much as they did with Salah, but… that didn't happen. (Again, I want to emphasize that I think people are being unfair to Rashford).

---

Go watch highlights of Rashford from a few years ago. He's light years slower and less agile. My suspicion along with others is that he is a player that relied on blinding speed to overwhelm his opponents. That speed has abandoned him, and he really does not know what to do.

Be that as it may, he created more chances than Amad and Garnacho combined. Both played better before Liverpool, so I think they should have started ahead of Marcus, but they didn't do much. Amad was energetic, I suppose.

In a dominating 3-0 loss, no one has a ton of highlights.

Showstopper said:

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Be that as it may, he created more chances than Amad and Garnacho combined. Both played better before Liverpool, so I think they should have started ahead of Marcus, but they didn't do much. Amad was energetic, I suppose.

In a dominating 3-0 loss, no one has a ton of highlights.

---

Truth.

EtH managed to kill this season's thread in 3 games. impressive.

Well, it's the international break. When the schedule came out, I thought, "Great, Liverpool before the international break, if it goes bad, we get to stew on it for basically two weeks."

I'm not sure why this international break even exists. The Euros and the Copa America barely finished. I wish they'd revamp the international scheduling to have fewer interruptions even if the breaks were like a week longer or something. I know, I'm just yelling at clouds.

Showstopper said:

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Well, it's the international break. When the schedule came out, I thought, "Great, Liverpool before the international break, if it goes bad, we get to stew on it for basically two weeks."

I'm not sure why this international break even exists. The Euros and the Copa America barely finished. I wish they'd revamp the international scheduling to have fewer interruptions even if the breaks were like a week longer or something. I know, I'm just yelling at clouds.

---

yea, i didn't really pay attention to the schedule. shaking my head that we have a break already. just so dumb.

Visually, there's a chance Rooney isn't quite on the CR7 anti-aging diet plan, but… you have to hand it to him, this is a pretty nice goal lol.

We are getting dominated so far. Can't even advance the ball beyond the half line. Onana with a good save early to keep it level.

Lisandro finally gets the ball advanced. Turns into a very good opportunity for Zirkzee. But he can't put anything on his sliding shot. Ends up straight at the keeper.

Southampton once again in control of this match.

And we have given up a penalty.

Disaster half for Dalot

Yup. Doesn't help that Rashford can't be bothered to do anything whatsoever.

How do you like Onana now?

Onana saves it!