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Kingwood flooding doesn't pass the smell test

77,389 Views | 567 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by notheranymore
Bondag
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You would hope that the SJRA response keeps lawyers for pursuing that any further, but I am sure there is someone that would take the case. Put me on that jury.

People along Buffalo Bayou that actually have money, like BP, Wortham, Hobby, etc. not that is a different story.
The Wonderer
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Bondag said:

You would hope that the SJRA response keeps lawyers for pursuing that any further, but I am sure there is someone that would take the case. Put me on that jury.

People along Buffalo Bayou that actually have money, like BP, Wortham, Hobby, etc. not that is a different story.
Buzbee stated he would not take any SJRA claims, but I've seen several lawyers that are attempting to sign clients for claims that do not have any business or experience in flood claims.
Bassmaster
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It won't keep them away. It will get a lot of attention, so some crappy lawyers will take these cases for some free publicity.
chimpanzee
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It has probably been covered, but does the Lake Conroe dam not have a spillway like the Lake Houston dam, and does this (or some other) feature make approaching or over topping the dam that much more likely/catastrophic if they allowed Lake Conroe to rise further?

Conflating The Woodlands with others actually around Lake Conroe was boneheaded and sounded petty, but the official statement from SJRA did not spend much time addressing why some additional amount of acre feet were not retained in Lake Conroe to keep those same acre feet out of Lake Houston apart from the quick mention of dam integrity concerns. Spending a lot of words on The Woodlands gaffe and very few on the threat to the Conroe dam sounds evasive of that nominally valid concern.

Many in Kingwood believe out of anger and paranoia that the policy/decision is/was something along the lines of "keep all water out of homes surrounding or upstream of Lake Conroe, and screw everyone else" because, they got water in their homes and people above the Conroe dam did not.

The last guy to get water in his house ends up being the marginal loser in any flood, so it still seems a valid question on who gets to make the call on who those unlucky people will be. If the answer to that question involves, in part, the integrity of the Conroe dam, then downstream should get the short straw because the alternative is yet worse for them. Putting it all together though, it is a plausible scenario that SJRA acted out of an abundance of caution for the dam's integrity and in the end did not actually come anywhere close to its actual limits and in so doing chose to flood people downstream instead of people upstream out of conservatism and avoidance of a much more serious risk. If you just lost your house, you are going to Monday Morning QB the whole situation and say they should have let it ride a bit more, but if you are SJRA, you are going to say, no way in hell am I letting that dam fail. Putting the rationale for the decisions that were made out there in those terms and more clearly acknowledging the tradeoffs would help the discussion better than calling out people that were lashing out in anger and shock, I think.

Lots of misinformation was thrown around to give angry people someone else to blame, which is annoying but forgivable and predictable, scumbag lawyers trying to capitalize on thee dynamic specifically excepted.
schmellba99
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88jrt06 said:

schmellba99 said:

88jrt06 said:

TxElsie said:

I just have to say that although no houses flooded in Summerwood...


Almost embarrassed at this lame *humble-brag*, given all those who are struggling... but you're the one who trashed the guy who had to come back from halfway across the world to confront the aftermath with his family, then trashed him over daycare decisions in crisis. So, no big surprise. Maybe just shut it down?
Wow. So if you make the statement that your house didn't flood, now you are being mean and hurtful and inconsiderate of somebody who did have water in their home?

Jesus, society is doomed. We are literally going to offend ourselves to extinction.
You failed to read the thread. She also ragged on a poster who flew halfway across the world to get home, etc.,
and was pleased to find daycare, under duress. She then pointed out "there's usually a reason (i.e., they're lousy)
when there's an opening...." That was a cheap shot. THEN, this. Also, "literally"...really?
Uhhh...I did read the thread pendejo. No mention anywhere of what you are talking about above on this thread. If you are talking about another thread, then excuse the ever lifing fck out of me for not knowing what you are talking about.

Other than that, your comment is exactly as I stated and reeks of somebody that is looking to be offended. I only go by the context of what is on this thread that is still here. HTMFH.
CDUB98
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Quote:

but the official statement from SJRA did not spend much time addressing why some additional amount of acre feet were not retained in Lake Conroe to keep those same acre feet out of Lake Houston apart from the quick mention of dam integrity concerns.


Because that is the reason. The only reason they release water is to protect the dam or provide drinking water for Lake Houston. That's it, except for maybe some required flow for downstream wetlands.
FHKChE07
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Yeah, we have covered this, but I will clarify. Lake Conroe has no spillway. It had flood gates. If the level in Lake Conroe gets too high then it gets above the flood gates and they essentially get ripped off. Then there is no control. And during Harvey they reached the highest level ever at Lake Conroe.
chimpanzee
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FHKChE07 said:

Yeah, we have covered this, but I will clarify. Lake Conroe has no spillway. It had flood gates. If the level in Lake Conroe gets too high then it gets above the flood gates and they essentially get ripped off. Then there is no control. And during Harvey they reached the highest level ever at Lake Conroe.
I still think the point could use more emphasis to calm people down, but they'll hear what they want. People get that Lake Conroe helped people downstream versus what would happen if it did not exist. They clearly don't get how close it might have come to not existing any more.
chimpanzee
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CDUB98 said:

Quote:

but the official statement from SJRA did not spend much time addressing why some additional amount of acre feet were not retained in Lake Conroe to keep those same acre feet out of Lake Houston apart from the quick mention of dam integrity concerns.


Because that is the reason. The only reason they release water is to protect the dam or provide drinking water for Lake Houston. That's it, except for maybe some required flow for downstream wetlands.

So are the houses around Lake Conroe essentially built above the "if it gets up here we'll have much larger problems on our hands than flooded houses around Lake Conroe" level?
The Wonderer
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chimpanzee said:

CDUB98 said:

Quote:

but the official statement from SJRA did not spend much time addressing why some additional amount of acre feet were not retained in Lake Conroe to keep those same acre feet out of Lake Houston apart from the quick mention of dam integrity concerns.


Because that is the reason. The only reason they release water is to protect the dam or provide drinking water for Lake Houston. That's it, except for maybe some required flow for downstream wetlands.

So are the houses around Lake Conroe essentially built above the "if it gets up here we'll have much larger problems on our hands than flooded houses around Lake Conroe" level?
No, most homes are built a ways back from the bulkheads or elevated if at the bulkheads. Lake Conroe has flooded several times.
88jrt06
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schmellba99 said:

88jrt06 said:

schmellba99 said:

88jrt06 said:

TxElsie said:

I just have to say that although no houses flooded in Summerwood...


Almost embarrassed at this lame *humble-brag*, given all those who are struggling... but you're the one who trashed the guy who had to come back from halfway across the world to confront the aftermath with his family, then trashed him over daycare decisions in crisis. So, no big surprise. Maybe just shut it down?
Wow. So if you make the statement that your house didn't flood, now you are being mean and hurtful and inconsiderate of somebody who did have water in their home?

Jesus, society is doomed. We are literally going to offend ourselves to extinction.
You failed to read the thread. She also ragged on a poster who flew halfway across the world to get home, etc.,
and was pleased to find daycare, under duress. She then pointed out "there's usually a reason (i.e., they're lousy)
when there's an opening...." That was a cheap shot. THEN, this. Also, "literally"...really?
Uhhh...I did read the thread pendejo. No mention anywhere of what you are talking about above on this thread. If you are talking about another thread, then excuse the ever lifing fck out of me for not knowing what you are talking about.

Other than that, your comment is exactly as I stated and reeks of somebody that is looking to be offended. I only go by the context of what is on this thread that is still here. HTMFH.

"Literally"
JJxvi
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What do the rainfall totals even look like in areas north of Conroe, compared to what they were in Kingwood itself, and in Spring and Cypress Creek watersheds? Im guessing the Lake Conroe/Upper West Fork watershed didnt get near as much rain to begin with as areas that are below the Lake Conroe dam anyway. Thats the simple reason why Lake Conroe homes didnt flood, the majority of the rain fell downstream from them not upstream from them, unlike Kingwood which had it both above and below them.
FHKChE07
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Well, I am pretty sure that it was the highest inflows to Lake Conroe ever.
JJxvi
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Right...but what are we talking? 15 inches in areas north of conroe, and 30+ inches south of conroe? I havent seen any kind of official analysis, but from what i remember from the various color blobs was that north of Montgomery country was were the colors started rapidly changing to the lower levels (which were still huge amounts of rainfall).
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WestTxWood88
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[UPDATE: Tracking Number Received from Seller, thanks for the help Staff - much appreciated]

[We understand that you may have an issue with another poster but please refrain from derailing threads with that issue. - Thank you. -Staff]
FHKChE07
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Well, that is no fun. This thread had gotten boring.
FHKChE07
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And it didn't take long for an example to crop up. This is why you don't mess with water supplies...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2018/01/18/mad-max-scenario-cape-town-run-out-water-90-days/#157b09fd5414

Cape Town, a town of 3.8 million people is now restricting their residents to 23 gallons per person per day. And they will still run out of water on April 22nd. Or at least, that is when the municipal water will be turned off and only be used for essential services. Then, residents can collect their 6.6 gallons of water a day at a collection point with armed guards.

This is why they do not pre-release from drinking water reservoirs because the alternative to people having flooded homes is people not having drinking water. As heartless as it sounds, the former is far greater than the latter.
schmellba99
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I had forgotten about this thread and how much fun it was.

Wouldn't want to be in Cape Town for the foreseeable future either.
FHKChE07
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I came across it and a prepper was talking about what they needed to do and how important it was to have water storage for your family. The overwhelming response was to not be anywhere near a city of 3.8 million people that is running out of water in 90 days. There is no good end to that scenario.
schmellba99
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FHKChE07 said:

I came across it and a prepper was talking about what they needed to do and how important it was to have water storage for your family. The overwhelming response was to not be anywhere near a city of 3.8 million people that is running out of water in 90 days. There is no good end to that scenario.
Nope, no good end at all. I can only imagine the blight that will happen when/if taps actually get shut off.

God forbid something like a fire happens - the Great Chicago Fire will be about like a girl scout campfire.
Ezra Brooks
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schmellba99 said:

I had forgotten about this thread and how much fun it was.

Wouldn't want to be in Cape Town for the foreseeable future either.
Kingwood is SLOWLY getting back to normal.

HEB opened this last Friday - it was a nuthouse over the weekend.

Feels like a store/restaurant or two are re-opening every week.

Still houses with trash out front, though that was mostly cleaned up in the 6-8 weeks following the storm.

Construction/remodeling crews are ever present, but the conversation that I seem to keep having with folks I know that were flooded out mostly center around how hard it is to get these crews to show up and work - lots of folks are moving really slowly at getting everything put back together.
schmellba99
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Ezra Brooks said:

schmellba99 said:

I had forgotten about this thread and how much fun it was.

Wouldn't want to be in Cape Town for the foreseeable future either.
Kingwood is SLOWLY getting back to normal.

HEB opened this last Friday - it was a nuthouse over the weekend.

Feels like a store/restaurant or two are re-opening every week.

Still houses with trash out front, though that was mostly cleaned up in the 6-8 weeks following the storm.

Construction/remodeling crews are ever present, but the conversation that I seem to keep having with folks I know that were flooded out mostly center around how hard it is to get these crews to show up and work - lots of folks are moving really slowly at getting everything put back together.
And Kingwood isn't any different than other areas that were hit just as hard or harder. I drive through Dickinson fairly regularly - same issues. Still areas that haven't had much recovery from the substantially more widespread flooding than Kingwood received.

It was a major storm - once in a lifetime event. Lots of folks still not back to normal, and won't be for a while.
Finn Maccumhail
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Ezra Brooks said:

schmellba99 said:

I had forgotten about this thread and how much fun it was.

Wouldn't want to be in Cape Town for the foreseeable future either.
Kingwood is SLOWLY getting back to normal.

HEB opened this last Friday - it was a nuthouse over the weekend.

Feels like a store/restaurant or two are re-opening every week.

Still houses with trash out front, though that was mostly cleaned up in the 6-8 weeks following the storm.

Construction/remodeling crews are ever present, but the conversation that I seem to keep having with folks I know that were flooded out mostly center around how hard it is to get these crews to show up and work - lots of folks are moving really slowly at getting everything put back together.

I have a number of friends and family of friends who were affected by the flooding in Kingwood. While tragic and a huge disruption the idea that the flooding in the area was caused by any mismanagement on the part of the SJRA is rather absurd.

If you're looking for man-made reasons the flooding was worse with Harvey than in the past look at the development along the San Jacinto River and Cypress/Spring Creek drainages. And then look at Lake Houston itself- Kingwood sits at a pinch point in the drainage above the 1960 bridge. That portion of the lake is very shallow in many parts, much of it silted in and there's tons of debris which washes down from upstream that chokes off the flow and caused the water to back up into Kingwood. And that has even affected the lower part of the lake by silting in channels and deeper water. I'm not sure how it can all be remedied but surely folks who do this kind of work have some ideas.
94chem
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Quote:

And then look at Lake Houston itself- Kingwood sits at a pinch point in the drainage above the 1960 bridge. That portion of the lake is very shallow in many parts, much of it silted in and there's tons of debris which washes down from upstream that chokes off the flow and caused the water to back up into Kingwood. And that has even affected the lower part of the lake by silting in channels and deeper water.
[I heard a rumor that] Schlumberger offered the city to dredge Lake Houston years ago, accepting the sand as payment. The city apparently said "no," and tried to charge them for it. I don't have the link, but this would have been par for the course under Lee Brown. Here's a link from 2011 when Ted Poe tried to get the lake dredged during the drought.

Dredging Lake Houston

Here's a haunting article from 2016, when Mayor Turner went to DC to ask for funds:

Turner to DC

Lake Houston definitely needs dredging, as its capacity has been reduced by 50%.
chimpanzee
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The amount of sand in Lake Houston is crazy. Areas along the river close to 59 looked like beaches for a while. Getting across to the marinas in Huffman to get gas was a challenge before Harvey, as I understand it. Perhaps it would be possible to dredge the lake enough to add additional flood retainage capacity when coupled with some other ability to lower the level quicker in advance of a pending storm, but who knows if that would even be possible much less how many billions it would cost on a scope/scale to have made an appreciable difference time around.

I'm just hoping it doesn't happen again, not sure how the insurance situation would ultimately be resolved trying to rebuild at this scope/scale with the idea that this could be a regular occurrence.



94chem
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Quote:

And Kingwood isn't any different than other areas that were hit just as hard or harder.
In terms of recovery, no. Lots of places are slugging along one step at a time.

But Dickinson's likelihood of future flooding, at least to my knowledge, doesn't increase every year that nothing gets done. 1) Illegal sand mining on the San Jacinto River, 2) higher than necessary pool levels at Lake Conroe (you can look up historical levels) to accommodate water sales and recreation, and 3) failure to dredge Lake Houston are making the likelihood and severity worse with each passing year.

Rick Walker, candidate for Ted Poe's house seat 2, has made flood prevention the centerpiece of his campaign.

Kevin Roberts, current state rep also running for Poe's seat, has recently made a big deal out of flood recovery and prevention. You can read about their plans on-line.

The flooding out here was not exclusively - by any stretch - manmade, but to the extent that it was, it is important for our city, county, state, and federal governments to alleviate, rather than exacerbate problems.

Go back to having "fun" with this thread.
Finn Maccumhail
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Yeah, I forgot about the dredging idea. That would help.

But, what's the story on the illegal sand mining operations? Aerial views show all kinds of sand pits up and down the San Jacinto (and other rivers for that matter), but if they're illegal why haven't they been shut down? Who would do that?
Liquid Wrench
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No need to be defensive; Lake Houston is important to the region, not just Kingwood and I would hope the new candidates would be getting lots of questions to test their local knowledge.
FarmerJohn
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Quote:

It was a major storm - once in a lifetime event.
After the Memorial Day floods, Tax Day floods, and now Harvey I don't believe that. Maybe we won't see 50 inches of rain again but I think it more likely than not that we'll get another rain event that results in progressive flooding in the next decade or so. That doesn't include flooding caused by heavy downpours that result in transient flooding conditions.
schmellba99
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I still see you are stuck on the idea that recreational boating somehow had something to do with the flooding. If at this point you still have that mentality, there is absolutely no amount of logic on this earth that can be presented that will change that. Because ample logic and discussion on how they system as a whole operates has been laid out pretty clearly on this very thread.

I'm not sure where you are going with "illegal sand pits" being a contributing factor to flooding. A couple of things - unless the sand pit has a crater about the size of Galveston Bay, it's not going to make any difference in the change in flooding characteristics. At least not to an appreciable degree - there may be a change when you get to the 17th decimal place in your calculations. If anything, it would help because it provides additional capacity to store water before it goes downstream. So you'll have to clarify what you mean in terms of this bullet point as a contributing factor.

And honestly, any operation that has the potential to impact riverine systems doesn't just happen. ACE is involved, TCEQ is involved. A few other alphabet agencies that require beaucoup paperwork to make any modifications to any part of the valley below oridnary high water mark are involved. Permits are required, inspections are required, not doing either equates to big big big fines.

Dredging LH is a great idea - the problem is that the .gov that folks love so much make it near impossible to do. It literally takes years of red tape, environmental impact studies (not just on the lake impacts, mind you, but on the environment where dredge material will be deposited as well, and don't forget impact studies on haul routes, air quality and a few other things that all take time and money), feasibility studies, cost to benefit impact studies, lobbying for funding and the consumption of resources and time required for that aspect, cooperation from multiple federal and state agencies (each with an agenda, each with a limited budget and each with different stated capacities), bidding the work and then finally doing the work. And LH isn't exactly an easy body of water to simply dredge due to the fact that it is man made, is a source for drinking water (which means that dredge operations have to be done in a manner that will not negatively impact the ability to treat said water to potable standards with existing equipment or without damaging existing equipment). Not to mention the subsurface conditions - being that it is a man made reservoir, a significant portion of the lake bed is debris ridden with the vegetation and tree stumps that was there prior to the lake being constructed. So standard dredging equipment is not going to work and specialized equipment will need to be designed, fabricated, procured, demonstrated, etc.

As far as Dickinson not being subject to future flooding - yeah, no. You want to know the single biggest factor in any of the floods (obviously outside of significant weather events)? Development. Urban growth. Building in areas that should not be built in. Areas that are high and dry but channel 10x the amount of water that natural vegetative cover channels to the same rivers and bayou systems that we can't modify. The exponential population and subsequent development growth in the greater Houston area that has no real end in sight.

Aside from the fact that Harvey was just a whale of a storm, we are going to continue to see more and more smaller scale storms produce flooding in areas "that have never flooded before!" because of compounding impacts. A master planned development in a vacuum may not have any significant impact on drainage and flooding, but 15 of them in close proximity outside of a vacuum do. So it's not just Kingwood, it's every area that you look that has ongoing development. Which is a 360 degree swath around Houston.

Another major contributing factor is the fact that since about 1825, we have absolutely changed the natural ecosystem along the gulf coast. Not just through development, but through changes in plant life from native salt and switch grass prairie land to pastures covered in Jiggs and Coastal and Bermuda that simply do not handle the severe weather patterns the same. It is estimated that there is less than 1% of the native gulf prairie system still in existence - and the various prairies along the gulf coast were measured in millions of acres. We don't have natural wildfires that maintain vegetation lines. We levee and channel river systems and don't let them change course like they did for a million years before we came here. We don't allow rivers to flood annually like God's design and instead build houses right on the banks. We bring in new plants that aren't native here and change the surfacescape. All of these have impacts that might not be significant when measured individually, but when measured as a whole have a monster impact.

So yeah, I'll keep having fun with this thread. You may succeed in solving the problem that affected you, but the end result is that you will cause a problem for somebody else. Or 10 years from now the fix you lobbied for today will be rendered ineffective because of 10 years worth of developmental changes that were not accounted for when the problem was identified today.

That's not to say that policies and procedures should not be reviewed and modified where necessary - but you are among one of the ones on this thread that have maintained that there was some type of criminal and deliberate act perpetrated to get those rich Kingwood folk, so I'm a bit skeptical of your ability to grasp the entire picture. Even with your 200+ patents and PHD sitting on the wall.
CDUB98
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Quote:

I still see you are stuck on the idea that recreational boating somehow had something to do with the flooding. If at this point you still have that mentality, there is absolutely no amount of logic on this earth that can be presented that will change that. Because ample logic and discussion on how they system as a whole operates has been laid out pretty clearly on this very thread.
Liquid Wrench
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Quote:

That doesn't include flooding caused by heavy downpours that result in transient flooding conditions.
That's the issue that isn't being talked about enough. We have spots all over town that can't even handle a heavy downpour because the city hasn't maintained or upgraded drainage in decades, no matter how many times we approve new bonds or fees. The night Harvey hit, we had intersections and residential areas flooding out within an hour or two before the bayous were even strained.

We're hearing all this talk of mega-structures to protect against "The New Normal," but in a lot of areas with outdated storm drainage, this is the "old normal." City officials need to be tied up and lashed to motivate them to address existing outdated infrastructure before going on an engineering study spending spree for sone new giant boondoggle.
CDUB98
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Well, if they did that, where would they get all the money to buy welfare votes and give lavish contracts to their buddies?
chimpanzee
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CDUB98 said:

Well, if they did that, where would they get all the money to buy welfare votes and give lavish contracts to their buddies?
Surely some politician still has friends over at KBR, they could probably handle it.

Is Dick Cheney still kicking around?
 
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