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Kingwood flooding doesn't pass the smell test

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94chem
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8:57a, 9/8/17
Quote:
Take the steps necessary to inform yourself, and you will never have to wait for somebody else to warn you of coming flood danger.
Glued to t.v. Never heard anything about Kingwood. Home was in 500 year plain and took no water in '94. Could have moved more stuff upstairs before leaving if we had known.

...and whoever said that a small portion of Kingwood flooded, that's a ridiculous statement.

...and whoever said that a future drought possibility is a good reason for not releasing water, that is even more ridiculous.

FYI, the 100 year zones in Kingwood, like where I lived for 17 years and was required to buy flood insurance (73' elevation), did not flood. The 500 year zone did flood (58' elevation). So, back to the communication issue, it would seem completely logical that the 500 year zones would flood after the 100 year zones, doesn't it? If the SJRA had said something like, "This flood has nothing to do with flood zones; it only has to do with elevation above sea level. Here's a website where you can check your elevation. If you are below 65', or 60', consider evacuating."
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07fta07
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In reply to 94chem • 8:59a, 9/8/17
AG
Kingwood is part of the greater Houston area they kept referencing while saying STAY HOME AND STAY OFF THE ROADS.

Sometimes you have to take a little responsibility on yourself. If I knew I was that low and near a lake with historical flooding issues and that an unprecedented amount of rain was coming, I'd probably choose to leave.
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txags92
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9:04a, 9/8/17
AG
There is no way that the 500 yr elevation is 15' lower than the 100 yr. I think you have some numbers mixed up there. And as for not hearing anything, are you sure you didnt sleep through several hcfcd briefings with lindner? Because he brought it up several times and on ch2 the anchors and meteos mentioned it several times too.
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txags92
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9:09a, 9/8/17
AG
And drought is absolutely a reason not to prerelease water, even if it is only a secondary one. One more time since maybe you slept throught this part of the thread...LAKE CONROE IS NOT A FLOOD CONTROL RESERVOIR...IT IS A DRINKING WATER RESERVOIR THAT HOLDS WATER EXPECTED TO SUPPLY ~75% OF HOUSTON' WATER SUPPLY NEEDS.

I am not sure how the point could be made any clearer. Conroe is not going to sacrifice the water supply needs of ~5 million people to potentially protect 1000 homes. Not going to happen.
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94chem
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9:23a, 9/8/17
I'll give you the addresses if you want. My home at 73' was placed in the 100 year zone after Allison. My home at 58' is in the 500 year zone. Fact - I moved from higher elevation to lower elevation and lowered my flood risk. The flood zones were drawn, presumably, to account for overflowing bayous, and not for Lake Houston flowing the wrong way. Believe it or not, you can learn something too. And, I never left my home until I saw the water down the street that began to block my exit.
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txags92
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9:42a, 9/8/17
AG
Ok, PM me the addresses if you want, because frankly, in playing with a topographic map and the Harris County Flood Mapping tool, I am not seeing anywhere in Kingwood with an elevation near 73 feet that appears to be close to the 100 yr floodplain. The 100 yr/500 yr flood divider plain down near the lake appears to be based on somewhere around 57-58'. I am not seeing anywhere on the topo with 73 feet that is close to the 100 yr flood plain. It must be near some localized feature of one of the bayous that constricts water flow or something, because I am just not seeing it. In either case, this was a >500 year storm. It doesn't matter which flood plain you were in, you were going to flood this time. The alternative was to let the dam overtop, destroy the spillway, and release 5-10x the flow rate and make the flooding even worse and last for much longer. Sorry if you flooded...but SJRA had to protect their dam.
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94chem
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9:43a, 9/8/17
Just checked it again on the elevation maps. 73' at non-flooded home in the 100 year zone. 58' at flooded home in 500 year zone. I had some flood insurance, but would have been required to purchase more if the zones had been drawn based on elevation. In fact, I wonder if this might be a legal recourse for people who were uninsured or under-insured. I argued that because my 73' home did not flood during TS Allison that it was at minimal flood risk, but had to buy the policy anyway. Again, it did not flood this time either, but still sits in the 100 year zone. My 58' home did not flood in '94 either.
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JJxvi
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9:54a, 9/8/17
AG
The buyout program is not new.

http://hcad.org/property-search/real-property-advanced-records/

Type in "Harris County Flood" under owner name. Then "1000" under land code and hit search. That will bring up every vacant residential lot in the county that is now owned by HCFCD because at some point in the past (probably mostly Allison) the owner took the buyout.
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94chem
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9:54a, 9/8/17
Quote:
It doesn't matter which flood plain you were in, you were going to flood this time.

...except that my Kingwood home in the flood zone didn't.

And when you allude to some "localized feature," I think that's exactly what happened - albeit wrongly. After seeing what happened here, my assumption is that many of the flood zones were determined based on local bayou capacity, not on lake capacity. Based on what happened in '94, it appears that there was an overreaction to TS Allison, and virtually no reaction to 1994, based on the flood zone mapping. This would have dramatically affected the economic impact for many homes here.

I basically hedged my bet, because I live in a low-risk zone (allegedly). However, as a Houstonian, I keep some flood insurance...we'll see how far it gets me.
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redag06
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9:56a, 9/8/17
94- Where are you getting your elevation numbers from? I know I had found my elevation at one point and now I can't seem to find it.
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AlaskanAg99
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10:21a, 9/8/17
AG
There is a USGS program ongoing currently in our region which will result in floodplain maps being redrawn in the next few years. A lot of people will be in for a surprise.
aTm '99
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94chem
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10:24a, 9/8/17
elevationmap.net
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aTm2004
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In reply to 07fta07 • 10:26a, 9/8/17
AG
07fta07 said:
Kingwood is part of the greater Houston area they kept referencing while saying STAY HOME AND STAY OFF THE ROADS.

Sometimes you have to take a little responsibility on yourself. If I knew I was that low and near a lake with historical flooding issues and that an unprecedented amount of rain was coming, I'd probably choose to leave.
Family in Alabama: "Our house was destroyed by a tornado...possibly from outer bands from Irma."
07fta07: "Alabama is in the Southeast they kept referencing. You were informed a hurricane was coming. Sometimes you have to take a little responsibility for yourself."

God, I love TexAgs.
ArticPenguin:
I am a middle aged lesbian with two children. In Texas, the GOP would love to claim I am an unfit parent and take my children.

Response when pressed for proof:
I actually have 6 links, and was getting super pissed the more info I looked up...So, look it up yourself, I am not going to fight about something I know to be true, to a person who would just as soon see me in prison or dead.
https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/2948036/replies/51680255
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07fta07
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In reply to aTm2004 • 10:28a, 9/8/17
AG
You've proven to understand nothing about this situation.
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redag06
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In reply to 94chem • 10:29a, 9/8/17
Site isn't working for me.
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aTm2004
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In reply to 07fta07 • 10:31a, 9/8/17
AG
07fta07 said:
You've proven to understand nothing about this situation.
You seem to forget Houston is a giant city,
ArticPenguin:
I am a middle aged lesbian with two children. In Texas, the GOP would love to claim I am an unfit parent and take my children.

Response when pressed for proof:
I actually have 6 links, and was getting super pissed the more info I looked up...So, look it up yourself, I am not going to fight about something I know to be true, to a person who would just as soon see me in prison or dead.
https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/2948036/replies/51680255
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07fta07
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In reply to aTm2004 • 10:35a, 9/8/17
AG
aTm2004 said:
07fta07 said:
You've proven to understand nothing about this situation.
You seem to forget Houston is a giant city,

I understand it perfectly. Which is why I understand that they didn't go door to door telling the 6+ million people in the region step by step instructions for their particular location. You seem to not be able to grasp that.

You took your kids to the toy store while the region was undergoing massive flooding. That's all I need to know about your lack of understanding.

I called a friend who lives in Kingwood when they came on the news saying Kingwood needs to be at home, now. He was running to grab food. His response "I know I shouldn't have gone out but I was tired of being at home". Guess who he blames for that decision? Himself. Not anyone else.
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94chem
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11:02a, 9/8/17
92, check the TSARP map for Elm Grove. There's 100 year all over the place flowing from the bayou near the park.
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94chem
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11:06a, 9/8/17
We got the warning that Kingwood Drive was being closed Monday afternoon. So, yes, we knew to stay home. What we didn't know was when to leave. Do you understand that staying and leaving are different things? In fact, some people might even consider them to be opposites.

Oh, and '92, you were wrong about the elevations. 73' yes, 58' no. Might wanna edit your post so you can still be perfect.
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aTm2004
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In reply to 07fta07 • 11:07a, 9/8/17
AG
07fta07 said:
aTm2004 said:
07fta07 said:
You've proven to understand nothing about this situation.
You seem to forget Houston is a giant city,

I understand it perfectly. Which is why I understand that they didn't go door to door telling the 6+ million people in the region step by step instructions for their particular location. You seem to not be able to grasp that.

You took your kids to the toy store while the region was undergoing massive flooding. That's all I need to know about your lack of understanding.

I called a friend who lives in Kingwood when they came on the news saying Kingwood needs to be at home, now. He was running to grab food. His response "I know I shouldn't have gone out but I was tired of being at home". Guess who he blames for that decision? Himself. Not anyone else.
Where am I blaming others for my decision to get the kids out who have been cooped up for 3 days? Please, go back and show me specifically. Here, I'll even quote the post you keep referencing to make it easy on you:

Quote:
My wife and I talked about this last night. We were at On The Park (toy store) on Monday around noon since they were open and the kids had cabin fever, and when we got home, my wife saw on FB somebody saying to get off of Kingwood Dr because the Conroe release was on it's way. In a matter of a couple of hours, it was under. That's what really surprised us because there were so many people out on the roads at that time and some businesses trying to be open with skeleton crews for the community, and zero warning from the news as to what could be coming. For most of people in Kingwood, they probably assumed Hamblen Rd would be under like it always is and maybe some of the more low lying areas of the community.
When you're not able to because I never blamed anybody for that, that'll be all I need to know about your lack of understanding and how you focus on one irrelevant fact and try to make your case around it. I called out that I felt the communication about the impact to Kingwood was lacking, but that's not placing blame. Others in the area (and in this thread) feel the same. I guess we're all a bunch of low IQ people who make people like you feel ashamed and embarrassed when you see us with Aggie rings.

What really gets me about you and a couple of others is that when some of us on here have asked about whether or not changes could be made, it was immediately dismissed as something that could never be done due to what the purpose of each lake is, and when we acknowledged we understood the purpose but still wondered, we were essentially called idiots and told we clearly don't understand what's going on. I bet the people who brought up the idea of building the lakes in the 60's and 70's were thought of the same way.

Hell, you yourself posted in this thread the possibility of Lake Houston not being sufficient to cover majority of the city' s water needs. I guess they'll have to look at changing things or looking for new resources. Do you honestly believe that the topic of flood control will not come up?
ArticPenguin:
I am a middle aged lesbian with two children. In Texas, the GOP would love to claim I am an unfit parent and take my children.

Response when pressed for proof:
I actually have 6 links, and was getting super pissed the more info I looked up...So, look it up yourself, I am not going to fight about something I know to be true, to a person who would just as soon see me in prison or dead.
https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/2948036/replies/51680255
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txags92
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11:17a, 9/8/17
AG
You keep bringing up this idea of changing the lake use and it has been explained to you what changing that use would involve and what the magnitude of the likely cost would be. What part of it makes you think we should spend billions of dollars and uproot thousands of families and businesses around lake conroe so that we can protect about 1000 homes in Kingwood from the next 800-1000 yr storm?
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txags92
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In reply to 94chem • 11:19a, 9/8/17
AG
94chem said:
We got the warning that Kingwood Drive was being closed Monday afternoon. So, yes, we knew to stay home. What we didn't know was when to leave. Do you understand that staying and leaving are different things? In fact, some people might even consider them to be opposites.

Oh, and '92, you were wrong about the elevations. 73' yes, 58' no. Might wanna edit your post so you can still be perfect.


My post assumed you were talking about flood plains from the same watershed. No need to be perfect...
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txags92
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11:22a, 9/8/17
AG
Regarding the city meeting water demand, they are already doing plenty. SB1 a few years back made sure cities planned for supply needs 50 years in advance...and almost singlehandedly stopped most of the rice farming west of houston due to competition for purchase of water rights. The luce bayou interbasin exchange projecr will help too.
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Finn Maccumhail
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11:23a, 9/8/17
AG
Since the water level at the Lake Houston dam peaked at just over 52' during the storm, I think the most likely explanation for Kingwood flooding is geographic and not really the dam releases from Conroe.

As I said previously, above the 1960 bridge and especially going to the NW you're looking at the narrowest, shallowest portion of the lake but where the majority of the inflows come into the lake. So you've got a pinch point that prevents the water from flowing and staying at that 52' level and instead backs up because of constricted flow and floods stuff at higher elevations than normal because the flow is constricted and there's not enough elevation drop for the water to flow quickly downstream.
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FHKChE07
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11:24a, 9/8/17
AG
So I don't know what you are defining as greater kingwood, but considering what the FEMA claims look like on this map:

https://apps.texastribune.org/harvey-fema-damage-analysis/?_ga=2.233700638.1034053809.1504228794-1727304107.1498945929

It appears that a large majority of Kingwood was not affected. I guess I don't know what you define as Kingwood, but it seemed only places fairly close to the river flooded. Also, it looks to match fairly closely with the 100-year flood plain.

http://www.harriscountyfemt.org/
http://fema.maps.arcgis.com/home/webmap/viewer.html?webmap=cbe088e7c8704464aa0fc34eb99e7f30&extent=-95.39423933682911,29.947540565538805,-94.72956648526751,30.14368545800061

As for the future drought possibility, it is when in order to drain any meaningful amount of water from Lake Conroe would take weeks of time before any certainty is known about storm path. And the Lake Conroe is not a flood control reservoir.

Comparing Alabama/Tip of Florida being even close to Houston/Kingwood is the most absurd thing I have heard all day. Kingwood is 25 miles from central Houston and, the last time I checked, PART OF THE CITY OF HOUSTON! And the news was showing nonstop coverage of rain falling across the entire region and all of the flooding that was happening all around, and you never would have thought to think that might happen to me here?

Further more since the Lake Conroe release was at most 20% of the total flow in to Lake Houston, and capacity of rivers/lakes exponentially increases as height increases. Even if there was no flow from Lake Conroe, there still would have been probably similar heights, just a little lower. Probably just a matter of inches, maybe a foot, not many feet.





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aTm2004
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In reply to txags92 • 11:29a, 9/8/17
AG
txags92 said:
You keep bringing up this idea of changing the lake use and it has been explained to you what changing that use would involve and what the magnitude of the likely cost would be. What part of it makes you think we should spend billions of dollars and uproot thousands of families and businesses around lake conroe so that we can protect about 1000 homes in Kingwood from the next 800-1000 yr storm?
You keep focusing on only Conroe. Move on beyond that. You admit that LH has primarily a spillway dam, and if the city or region will ultimately have to go elsewhere for water since it looks like LH may not be able to provide future needs, why couldn't they also look at redoing LH dam to incorporate some flood control? Because of the need for drinking water? If they have to go elsewhere in the future for it, why couldn't some flood control be incorporated into their plans/decisions? Stop focusing on one thing and look at the big picture. Yeah, it's going to cost money, but immediately dismissing the idea before somebody does a proper cost/benefit analysis on it is short sighted, IMO.
ArticPenguin:
I am a middle aged lesbian with two children. In Texas, the GOP would love to claim I am an unfit parent and take my children.

Response when pressed for proof:
I actually have 6 links, and was getting super pissed the more info I looked up...So, look it up yourself, I am not going to fight about something I know to be true, to a person who would just as soon see me in prison or dead.
https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/2948036/replies/51680255
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In reply to aTm2004 • 11:36a, 9/8/17
94chem
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11:37a, 9/8/17
The homes are 1.5 miles apart, roughly.

I understand that Conroe is a constant level lake. In 2011 during the drought, how come it didn't fail when the water dropped too low? Is it because the earthen dam dried out slowly, or is is because they're making it up as they go this time around?

We've been around and around on the pre-release issue, but if the risk of future drought played any role in the severity of this flood, that is inexcusable. There were zero weather reports that suggested a rainfall deficit for Harvey.

The other issue I see is the poorly drawn floodmaps that are gpong to hurt a lot of people. The post-Allison response really appears to have gotten it wrong for Kingwood. Maybe realtors can start getting commissions on flood policies, because they really aren't mentioned in the buying process. People who aren't in flood zones, and/or aren't from Houston, or who don't know the limitations of their homeowner's insurance, really don't know this stuff.

You can blame the victim for their own ignorance, but if you drive newer model cars, don't rebalance your 401 (k) every year, don't understand 529 plans, or don't manage your genetic cancer risks, etc, I can lob the same grenade at you.
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aTm2004
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In reply to [removed post] • 11:40a, 9/8/17
AG
Sasappis said:
I hate to pile on but your comments about lake Houston also show a serious lack of understanding on its purpose as well.

Basically lake Houston is the holding pond for the water treatment plant. The lake level is controlled by discharge from Conroe (and soon to be from lake Livingston as well). It cannot be used for flood control because doing so would put the water treatment plant at risk which is literally the source of drinking water for almost the entire region.
Currently, it cannot be. Does that mean it always has to be that way? That's all I've been wondering, yet am told it can't be because of what it's designed to do. I guess I'm not fully in the things can never change camp. Things have changed in the past to get us to where we currently are, and things will need to change to get us to where we will be. I guess I'm an idiot for wondering this.
ArticPenguin:
I am a middle aged lesbian with two children. In Texas, the GOP would love to claim I am an unfit parent and take my children.

Response when pressed for proof:
I actually have 6 links, and was getting super pissed the more info I looked up...So, look it up yourself, I am not going to fight about something I know to be true, to a person who would just as soon see me in prison or dead.
https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/2948036/replies/51680255
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aTm2004
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In reply to 94chem • 11:43a, 9/8/17
AG
Quote:
You can blame the victim for their own ignorance, but if you drive newer model cars, don't rebalance your 401 (k) every year, don't understand 529 plans, or don't manage your genetic cancer risks, etc, I can lob the same grenade at you.
This is TexAgs...everybody knows everything and every decision they make is the prefect decision. We all drive junk 2017 Super Duty trucks, pay nothing for wealth experts to give us guidance on our finances...only for us to tell them they don't know what they're talking about, and eat only free range and organic food while running half marathons during our lunch hour.
ArticPenguin:
I am a middle aged lesbian with two children. In Texas, the GOP would love to claim I am an unfit parent and take my children.

Response when pressed for proof:
I actually have 6 links, and was getting super pissed the more info I looked up...So, look it up yourself, I am not going to fight about something I know to be true, to a person who would just as soon see me in prison or dead.
https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/2948036/replies/51680255
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In reply to aTm2004 • 11:43a, 9/8/17
aTm2004
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In reply to [removed post] • 11:50a, 9/8/17
AG
Sasappis said:
aTm2004 said:
Sasappis said:
I hate to pile on but your comments about lake Houston also show a serious lack of understanding on its purpose as well.

Basically lake Houston is the holding pond for the water treatment plant. The lake level is controlled by discharge from Conroe (and soon to be from lake Livingston as well). It cannot be used for flood control because doing so would put the water treatment plant at risk which is literally the source of drinking water for almost the entire region.
Currently, it cannot be. Does that mean it always has to be that way? That's all I've been wondering, yet am told it can't be because of what it's designed to do. I guess I'm not fully in the things can never change camp. Things have changed in the past to get us to where we currently are, and things will need to change to get us to where we will be. I guess I'm an idiot for wondering this.


You are not an idiot but you are being intentionally dismissive of the issues faced when discussing fundamentally changing the purpose of massive infrastructure projects.

How in your mind would they adopt lake Houston for flood control purposes?

Answer that question and we can discuss your plans for change.
I'm assuming you mean adapt and not adopt. I've mentioned that it appears to be a spillway dam currently (a couple of gates). Could they not make changes to the dam to allow for some flood control? In the future, there will probably be new reservoirs for drinking water, which could possibly allow for other drinking resources to be dual purpose. Is that possible? I don't know, but I'm also not going to immediately dismiss the idea.

Another thing to keep in mind is that as development happens, concrete replaces soil that would soak up some of the water from massive rains. Last I checked, concrete isn't as absorbent as soil, so that water will be displaced somewhere, be it retaining ponds, creeks, rivers, etc. The flood threat will continue to increase, which would require new flood control measures.
ArticPenguin:
I am a middle aged lesbian with two children. In Texas, the GOP would love to claim I am an unfit parent and take my children.

Response when pressed for proof:
I actually have 6 links, and was getting super pissed the more info I looked up...So, look it up yourself, I am not going to fight about something I know to be true, to a person who would just as soon see me in prison or dead.
https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/2948036/replies/51680255
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FHKChE07
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11:59a, 9/8/17
AG
So let me get this straight, you want to make Lake Houston a flood control lake now? Ok. How would you like to do that?

Make the Dam higher at Lake Houston? That would put more and more of Kingwood upstream in a flood plain.

Put more gates in Lake Houston to let more water out before the storm? One, it would be expensive. On the normally empty dams Addicks and Barker, just the maintenance upgrades are $72 million. Adding more new gates to an existing dam that has water in it? Way more expensive and wouldn't have done much due to the issue presented above that the pinch point at the entrance to Lake Houston was more of the cause than the lake backing up.

Buy out all the homes right on the flood plain in Kingwood? Max 1000 homes at $400k is $400million.

Yes, when Lake Conroe lowered because of the drought, it did not fail because it fell gradually. Quoting the FAQ's again from the SJRA website:
Quote:
Fourth, the soils in the dam below the normal water line of 201' MSL are fully saturated with water, and if the lake level was lowered below 201' MSL too quickly, the reduction of water pressure against the face of the dam could cause instability of the soils on the upstream slope.

Lake Houston can not really be changed because if you try to lower the level enough for flood control purposes:
1) you would lose significant capacity which Lake Houston already doesn't have. It only has 120,000 acre-ft to begin with, which at peak rates in the storm would have filled up in 3.5 hours if it was completely empty.
2) the inlet structures for the water treatment plant depend on a level of water generally designed for. And considering Lake Houston only has an average depth of 12 feet, they probably aren't that deep.

To address the concrete replacing soil, even when all of west Houston was prairie, we still had significant flooding. Especially since these days all the development puts in significant retention ponds and such that slow water flow downstream. See this article for more detail: http://reason.com/blog/2017/09/01/no-flooding-in-houston-was-not-caused-by
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In reply to aTm2004 • 11:59a, 9/8/17
txags92
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12:01p, 9/8/17
AG
You do realize there are houses downstream of the Lake Houston dam as well? What you are talking about is transferring the flooding downstream instead. So what is magical about 1000 or ao homes in kingwood that flooded in an 800-1000 year storm? Why should we plan to rebuild and restructure our entire water supply and distributuon infrastructure, potentially throw away valuable drinking water, and flood homes downstream of Lake Houston just to protect those homes in Kingwood from an 800-1000 year flood event.

To answer your question, yes, absolutely...what you are talking about can be done. With enough money thrown at it we can do almost anything. But in my opinion...and I suspect the opinion of everybody who doesn't live in one of those houses in Kingwood that flooded unexpectedly...the amount of money and difficulty it would take to do what you are asking is not worth the cost when we can simply buy all those houses for far less.
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