aTm2004 said:

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txags92 said:

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You keep bringing up this idea of changing the lake use and it has been explained to you what changing that use would involve and what the magnitude of the likely cost would be. What part of it makes you think we should spend billions of dollars and uproot thousands of families and businesses around lake conroe so that we can protect about 1000 homes in Kingwood from the next 800-1000 yr storm?

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You keep focusing on only Conroe. Move on beyond that. You admit that LH has primarily a spillway dam, and if the city or region will ultimately have to go elsewhere for water since it looks like LH may not be able to provide future needs, why couldn't they also look at redoing LH dam to incorporate some flood control? Because of the need for drinking water? If they have to go elsewhere in the future for it, why couldn't some flood control be incorporated into their plans/decisions? Stop focusing on one thing and look at the big picture. Yeah, it's going to cost money, but immediately dismissing the idea before somebody does a proper cost/benefit analysis on it is short sighted, IMO.

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I suppose you just decided to not look at this:

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In order to make Conroe both a supply reservoir and a flood control lake you'd have to, using the number in a previous reply, raise the height of the dam by 30 or so feet. In doing so, the dam would loop from about Montgomery to Willis (rough guess) and the area of innundation would roughly encompass a shape from the existing dam to Huntsville to College Station to Navasota and back to Montgomery. And, quite honestly, that is probably not nearly enough area.

So to save the ~1000 homes in Kingwood that were damaged to the flood, you'd make an area that is about 537,000 acres uninhabitable. No clue on the number of houses, property value or population in that area - but it's significantly more than that of the roughly 1000 homes in Kingwood.

To do the same to LH would probably be easily 3x the surface area, or about 1.5 Million acres that would not be suitable for habitation due to being in the innundation zone for the flood control portion of the reservoir and the area would include everything from Dayton to Cleveland to Conroe to Spring and back to the lake. So you'd displace ALL of Kingwood, plus about, what, 2 or so million people, to protect your roughly 1000 houses that would be 100% in the flood zone anyway.

At some point you need to take responsibility as an adult to know what the area around you can do in various conditions, plan ahead, and know where to find the information instead of complaining that you didn't think there was enough alerts alarms and door knocking from people telling you bad things are going to happen. Data is out there, you literally have the entire world at your fingertips via the phone in your hand - the news simply cannot advise each and every person in each and every area of a metroplex with about 7mm or so people in it that is getting hammered across the entirety of the metropolitan area what each and every potential disaster may be.

Could communication be better? Hell, it always can, but given the entirety of the situation and what has been explained to you on this thread, combined with the fact that it wasn't bad to begin with, I'm just not seeing where you can legitimately claim you weren't adequately informed. That's just me though.

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Additionally, there is already a project underway that will increase supply to LH to meet the expected future demands of COH water consumption. It has been discussed on this thread (previous page for that matter):

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Luce Bayou is a water supply project to keep LH at a minimum level when the NEWTP project is finalized and that plant starts pulling an obscene amount of water out of LH to deliver to western Harris County, Montgomery County and I think some may go into Ft. Bend County (not sure about Ft. Bend). The NEWTP project is a $1.5+ Billion upgrade to the existing plant, and that cost doesn't include the roughly additional billion they are going to spend on the distribution pipelines and booster pump stations. Huge expenditure for COH,which is a main reason most of their other water infrastructure projects are either on hold or flat out not going to be done anytime in the next 5 years.

Luce won't have that much affect on the Trinity, at least that was what I was told when I asked those questions. It's a lot of water that will be pulled, but the Trinity is a wide and deep river and the amount of water is, comparatively speaking, not much at all. I think the pump station will initially be a 400mgd station with capacity for future expansion to 800mgd. It's a good sized pump station, still mad we opted to not bid the damn thing.

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So when other folks state that you just don't seem to grasp the concepts of things discussed on this thread, the above two items are a prime example why (along with deciding to go toy shopping at a very inopportune time). And missing the multiple broadcasts discussing the entire area being flooded, and missing the specific broadcasts talking about releases from Lake Conroe, and just not grasping the basic fact that there was very little that could have been done more than what was done.

Costs have also been stated by myself and multiple others that to do these fairy dust and unicorn fart changes to existing infrastructure would be in dollar figures that are essentially immesurable or inconprehensible to grasp. You are litterally talking about US Government budget item dollar figures - hundreds of billions of dollars. So yes, the ideas are going to be dismissed relatively quickly because they simply are not realistic from any logical standpoint.

Basic facts are that Conroe and LH are not flood control reservoirs, trying to make them into flood control reservoirs would be prohibitively expensive and time consuming and would also require elimination of the habitable areas that turning them into flood control reservoirs would protect. There were multiple reports talking about flooding in the area and specific to the need to release water from Conroe. Multiple posts have also talked about the fact that Conroe releases, while it is certain that they did not help the situation downstream, realistically had very little effect overall due to the drainage features independent of Conroe. And I guarantee you that the water rise that occured 2 hours after Conroe released is not related to Conroe because it takes significantly longer for the water to travel that distance (3-5 days).

I would advise you that several folks have tried like hell to show you the big picture, you just seem to be unwilling to look at it.

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We've been around and around on the pre-release issue, but if the risk of future drought played any role in the severity of this flood, that is inexcusable. There were zero weather reports that suggested a rainfall deficit for Harvey.

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The problem is that by the time there were weather reports that suggested a significant rainfall for Houston, it was too late to drain Lake Conroe.

https://spacecityweather.com/clouds-may-eclipse-the-eclipse-and-rain-chances-return-to-houston/#more-4820

This was the report from Space City Weather on August 21. The Sunday before the storm. Doesn't sound that confident about rainfall rates of 35" that we need to do anything about. This is already to late to do anything with Lake Conroe without preflooding everything downstream and still their is no certainty of what Harvey means or is. Again, it takes days to get any appreciable amount of water out of Lake Conroe and out of the watershed. Would you like to make that decision to drain the water supply of the country's 4th largest city on:

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we could see a couple of inches of rainfall or quite a bit more, and if not, it could be drier and hotter (mid-90s).

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I know I wouldn't.

As for not having good information, I decided to go through the back blogs of Space City Weather to start seeing about flooding. They generally were relating similar information as the news.

https://spacecityweather.com/flooding-begins-as-worst-of-ts-harveys-moisture-moves-into-houston/

This was Saturday night and I know you won't agree with this but:

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High resolution models (which are run frequently) continue to show high rainfall totals tonight and into Sunday morning, with widespread accumulations of 3 to 6 inches, and some locations receiving in excess of 10 inches. On top of the rainfall, we continue to see indications of tornadoes on the radar. As Matt suggested, now would be a good time to make sure you have your mobile device emergency alerts notification set to "On" tonight.

We remain concerned about the potential for flooding in the Houston region tonight, and will do our best to keep you apprised of the situation.

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https://spacecityweather.com/why-were-worried-about-the-rest-of-tonight-in-houston/

This was later Saturday night at 10 PM:

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Will Band 1 slow down as it moves toward a line from, say, Humble to Seabrook, or along the Gulf Freeway? There are some meteorological reasons to think it might, and this could potentially become a devastating event for the east side of Houston. A nearly stationary line of showers producing 4 inches of rain per hour does not take long to flood structures.

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I distinctly remember the news talking about the rain bands merging and just dumping across the entire Houston area all night and them addressing the band slowing down on the East side because I said to my wife, "I'm glad I don't live on the east side of Houston. That is going to be bad."

By midnight, the story was this:

https://spacecityweather.com/a-bad-situation-in-houston-has-turned-worse-much-worse/

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Another data point that is concerning in the extreme: The Houston-Galveston office of National Weather Service has issued three Flash Flood Emergencies tonight for the Houston region. It had only ever issued one before in the five years or so that the forecast product has existed.

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This is what I remember the weathermen all talking about because it had only happened once before in its' existence and we had 3 issued in one night to include the entire Houston area. (And I swear to God, if someone says that Kingwood is not in Houston, I am going to punch them.)

And this is Eric's parting words:

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• This is an extremely dangerous flooding situation for the Houston metro area
• Stay in your location
• The heavy rains from Harvey are likely to continue into Sunday morning, worsening an already borderline catastrophic situation

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It wasn't even really Sunday yet and everyone was calling this catastrophic. The flooding was already in full force. I was flooded into my house in central Houston, and they were already calling it a historic flooding situation. If at this point in time you weren't already paying attention, I don't know what to tell you.

By 2 AM Sunday, it was a ****ing **** show:

https://spacecityweather.com/so-were-now-under-a-flash-flood-emergency-for-catastrophic-life-threatening-flooding/

Now, the NWS issued a "Flash Flood Emergency for Catastrophic Life Threatening Flooding" for the first time ever. All the news guys at this point in time are saying "STAY IN YOU HOMES." In fact, that is exactly what the alert said: "This is a PARTICULARLY DANGEROUS SITUATION. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO TRAVEL!"

Now, again, this is the National Weather Service, not the local weathermen hyping things up.

On Sunday at 2 in the afternoon, they are showing on KHOU this flooding in spring:

This is not very far away from you upstream and maybe at this point in time you should be paying attention to the flooding that is happening literally all around you. But you haven't heard anything about Kingwood so I guess you are still fine.

By Sunday at noon, the public officials were saying:

https://spacecityweather.com/houston-we-will-get-through-this/#more-5162

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public officials advise going onto your roof, and to take white towels so that first responders from the city, county, or US Coast Guard can more easily find you.

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So now we are helicopter rescues, but we still don't need to worry. And the guys at space city are still saying:

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The other clear advice is to not drive on roads today, even if conditions appear to be clearing, because we expect more showers and flooding tonight. Even if roads are clear near where you are, they may not be where you are going. (If you absolutely must travel, Google maps, with traffic, offers a rough means of gauging which roads are passable at this time). But, as the mayor said, "The best way to keep from getting stranded is to stay off the street."

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By Sunday afternoon:

https://spacecityweather.com/late-sunday-afternoon-harvey-forecast-update/

They are already talking about:

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North of I-10,it's similar, but with more rain and fewer breaks. Expect occasional 1-3 per hour rain rates in those areas. This will exacerbate already near-record levels of flooding on Cypress Creek and other bodies of water north of Houston.

On average, I would expect 3-7 south and 4-8 north, but there is most certainly a risk of higher amounts in spots. The heavy rains near Port Arthur and Beaumont should add up to 5-10 or more.

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Near-record levels of flooding on Cypress Creek. So now we have Cypress Creek at near record levels and Spring creek is covering the beltway.

At 845, they are talking about the continuing flash flood emergency for the entire region, still staying home and not leaving.

By Monday Morning, the Press Conference was saying we have the potential to exceed the 1000-year flood threshold.

This is just one news outlet. It might not of said Kingwood particularly, but it definitely gave you cause to pay attention.

Falcon Punch!

Excellent summation but just as a point of fact, that Instagram picture of the flooding at Aldine-Westfield at the Beltway is due to Greens Bayou not Spring Creek and it's not in Spring, that's north Houston between Gunspoint and the Upper East Side (a little west of IAH/JFK Blvd).

Greens Bayou is well south of Kingwood and it flooded badly too, especially down around the CE King/Sheldon/Northshore/Cloverleaf areas. That didn't have anything to with the Lake Conroe discharges. Nor did the eastern portion of the Lake Houston watershed which flooded significantly too.

I was saying. The news was saying stay home an watch for weather alerts unless you were in a dangerous situation. Instead, people were out shopping and carrying on. Maybe, if you had been paying attention you would have seen the news that Cypress Creek and Spring Creek were at record levels that would be causing catastrophic flooding in the West Fork of the San Jacinto.

Also, I was addressing that you had "no idea" there was catastrophic flooding going around you by showing all of the examples that there was catastrophic flooding across the entire region instead of as you put it, "only around the Barker and Addicks reservoirs".

Then, you could have made your own educated decisions about whether you needed to evacuate because you were in a dangerous situation ahead of when you say that you found out, Monday afternoon when it was too late. You could have looked at the San Jacinto Forecast map which are updated pretty regularly to see if you were going to flood or if there was concern.

I found warnings of Major Flood forecasts on the West Fork on Sunday. These were almost certainly communicated by the news on Sunday. They were regularly walking through all of the major rivers, creeks and bayous being forecasted into Major Flood. Saying that it came up so fast is a little facetious. It took over a day to come downstream after they were forecasting it. When it arrived at Kingwood, it did come up fast, but it was should not have been a surprise.

http://mctxoem.org/flooding-imminent-for-areas-that-have-previously-flooded/

And trust me, I know how fast rivers can rise. I sat and watched the bayou come up by my house a foot every half hour without stopping. But with the West Fork, it was coming down stream and they were forecasting when it would hit.

aTm2004 said:

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FHKChE07 said:

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I was saying. The news was saying stay home an watch for weather alerts unless you were in a dangerous situation. Instead, people were out shopping and carrying on. Maybe, if you had been paying attention you would have seen the news that Cypress Creek and Spring Creek were at record levels that would be causing catastrophic flooding in the West Fork of the San Jacinto.

Also, I was addressing that you had "no idea" there was catastrophic flooding going around you by showing all of the examples that there was catastrophic flooding across the entire region instead of as you put it, "only around the Barker and Addicks reservoirs".

Then, you could have made your own educated decisions about whether you needed to evacuate because you were in a dangerous situation ahead of when you say that you found out, Monday afternoon when it was too late. You could have looked at the San Jacinto Forecast map which are updated pretty regularly to see if you were going to flood or if there was concern.

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It's not that the flooding was happening, but how fast it went from "things look good" to "we're ****ed."

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Is that the definition of a flash flood?

Ok. I found newscasters talking about the West Fork on the TV talking about all the flooding they are forecasting.

aTm2004 said:

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FHKChE07 said:

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I was saying. The news was saying stay home an watch for weather alerts unless you were in a dangerous situation. Instead, people were out shopping and carrying on. Maybe, if you had been paying attention you would have seen the news that Cypress Creek and Spring Creek were at record levels that would be causing catastrophic flooding in the West Fork of the San Jacinto.

Also, I was addressing that you had "no idea" there was catastrophic flooding going around you by showing all of the examples that there was catastrophic flooding across the entire region instead of as you put it, "only around the Barker and Addicks reservoirs".

Then, you could have made your own educated decisions about whether you needed to evacuate because you were in a dangerous situation ahead of when you say that you found out, Monday afternoon when it was too late. You could have looked at the San Jacinto Forecast map which are updated pretty regularly to see if you were going to flood or if there was concern.

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It's not that the flooding was happening, but how fast it went from "things look good" to "we're ****ed."

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Kingwood was not the only area in the greater Houston area to experience this problem. In fact, most of the creeks, bayous, and reservoirs were not in flood stage until Sunday night when all hell broke lose and everything ended up in flood stage.

I find it odd that while you were going to the toy store, I was waiting for water to recede down my driveway because a major tributary of Buffalo Bayou is literally down the street from my home, yet I knew on Monday that Humble and Kingwood and the rest of the East side was about to take it in the pants.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess you don't care much for kingwood.

That's a lot of effort for a <\/ntish troll job.

So, what is the current argument about? It seems to have shifted numerous times from SJRA Conspiracy to We Had No Idea It Would Flood to No One Packed My House And Moved Me Out Before The Flood.

Troll job almost got me, but I spit the hook when they mentioned climate change...

Yeah, it started as it was a conspiracy of SJRA to release water and flood Kingwood because lake Conroe is the money maker for the county. Then it went to how there was no communication it was going to flood. Then it went to we need to redo the entire infrastructure of Northeast Houston so they won't flood anymore. Someone complained that it wasn't fair that it flooded in the nighttime.

There was a bunch in the middle explaining how dams work. I'm pretty sure that some people in this thread still don't understand how rivers work.

I don't remember what else people have tried to argue, but they have all been pretty flimsy arguments.

So your high rise condo is going to sell for a premium because it didn't flood? Apparently you can take the moron out of kingwood.....

This guy

dlance said:

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So, what is the current argument about? It seems to have shifted numerous times from SJRA Conspiracy to We Had No Idea It Would Flood to No One Packed My House And Moved Me Out Before The Flood.

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There is no actual argument.

People are upset they flooded.

Venting on Texags is what some people need right now.