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Kingwood flooding doesn't pass the smell test

77,531 Views | 567 Replies | Last: 5 yr ago by notheranymore
redag06
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A class action has now been filed regarding kingwood as well.

Won't go anywhere but the kingwood folks who flooded are all excited.
txags92
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redag06 said:

A class action has now been filed regarding kingwood as well.

Won't go anywhere but the kingwood folks who flooded are all excited.
Not sure why anybody would get excited. Class action lawsuits are all about getting a big payment for the lawyer involved. Even if the lawsuit for Kingwood succeeded, which it won't, they would likely get something meaningless like approximately 12 cents per 100,000 in home value in the form of lowes and Home Depot coupons while the Lawyer walked away with about $10,000,000
schmellba99
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94chem said:

FHK, interesting link to the video. From that forecast, my home would have been several feet above water with the river cresting at 65 ft. However, the actual crest was over 70 ft, and I got feet of water in my house. So, basically the warning I got was to not leave and to not worry. 65 ft. Got it. Good. 2 ft below 94. Whew! Close, but we'll be okay. WRONG.
Hell, nevermind. Not worth it.
Mookie
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Maybe he's the lawyer!
BigPuma
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where in the **** would you draw that conclusion? I know for a fact you wouldn't say that to my face. But I paid attention to the storm, made a call to stay put in my own home based on what was going on around me and knowing what could come? And frankly observing what was happening with the creek down my street, helping my neighbor dig a channel to drain, etc. And kept an eye on Kingwood and the East Side because some of my and my wife's extended family lives there? Okay.

But for the record, I was taking items to shelters, delivering food to first responders (DPS and Tx TF1&2 were holed up around my area before heading east), and on Tuesday we were already cleaning out homes (several of which were affected by the Tax Day 2016 floods so try going through this again in 16 months and get back to me). All of this while also hosting a friend that evacuated out of his apartment. I guess that is what the criminals and grifters do too?

Look flooding sucks. It sucks. But it is literally nothing compared to Ike dropping a tornado on your childhood home and destroying everything that wasn't with you or your parents (who evacuated appropriately)

Quit trying to blame others for a freaking act of nature.
94chem
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Even after I evacuated, I stayed up all night checking the NOAA website for west fork readings. Had virtually no connectivity, but every few hours I'd see the number rise, with the projections not reaching 67' until well after midnight, maybe about 5 a.m. By that time I already had water in my house. The readings stopped at 69' when the sensor bumped into the underside of the bridge. The actual number was probably closer to 72'. So, the SJRA projectioms absolutely affected whether or not we evacuated, and our whole neighborhood was watching the numbers, deciding when or if to leave. I think it's odd that the SJRA could be off on its projections by a full 7 ft in a 12 hour period. Misinformation? Incompetence? As OP noted, something doesn't smell right. I would have spent more time taking loss mitigation measures if they had given me an even remotely close number. Is it normal to be that far off?
schmellba99
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94chem said:

Even after I evacuated, I stayed up all night checking the NOAA website for west fork readings. Had virtually no connectivity, but every few hours I'd see the number rise, with the projections not reaching 67' until well after midnight, maybe about 5 a.m. By that time I already had water in my house. The readings stopped at 69' when the sensor bumped into the underside of the bridge. The actual number was probably closer to 72'. So, the SJRA projectioms absolutely affected whether or not we evacuated, and our whole neighborhood was watching the numbers, deciding when or if to leave. I think it's odd that the SJRA could be off on its projections by a full 7 ft in a 12 hour period. Misinformation? Incompetence? As OP noted, something doesn't smell right. I would have spent more time taking loss mitigation measures if they had given me an even remotely close number. Is it normal to be that far off?

Jesus man, you are either completely ignorant or so jaded that bad things happened and you just need somebody to blame that you are willfully being obtuse.

It fcking rained 40"+ in a matter of just a few hours. The system was already saturated before the rain because we have had a really wet summer. On top of that, we also had a storm surge that prevented drainoff that you wpuld normally see with a run of the mill storm. Tell me how often these combinations happen, and tell me how much historical data we have to base predictions on. I will wait.

Better yet, since you have a skull as thick as a damned trex, i will just tell you - there is no historical precedence to base projections on. None.

So, anything was a guess based on a million variables, any one of which being off or incorrect would change reality from projection. And guess what? It fvking rained 40"+. Everything was a guess. Some were somewhat close, some were overprojected, some were underprojected.

That is called "real world", you would do yourself a lot of good to find a way to it.
JustPanda
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Every time he posts I feel less and less sympathy for Kingwood.
94chem
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My family is safe. I have 6 children, one who is disabled, and a serious illness in my family. We do not move at the speed of most people. We actually stayed informed and made an overall sound decision. As a Ph.D. scientist with over 40 US patents, I am at heart a skeptic, and I questioned the reports I was seeing all along. I don't think the margin for error was properly communicated. And I think some lenders are going to be asking some hard questions about the flood maps. We'll see how it shakes out. Nobody yet has provided a reason why Elm Grove has so many homes in the flood plain, yet its bayou just handled 52" of rain, did not flood in '94, and did not flood in Allison.

I don't have this kind of wealth, but I presume there are umbrella policies for people with $750k homes who can only get $250k in flood insurance.

There are also a lot of homes here that took water last year as well...all in the 100 year as far as I know. They all have flood insurance mandatory, but this 50% repair number is going to likely trigger a lot of slab raising.

Lots of good information on this thread, but a lot of unnecessary condescension and contempt. It's neither stupid nor thick-headed to ask why 7 more feet of water entered your neighborhood in a few hours than was expected. This wasn't an earthquake.

The information about the LH dam at 52' and the pinch point upstream was helpful. Almost like a storm surge. When we saw the drainage to the Lake flowing the wrong way, that's when we left.

JustPanda
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Nice humble self brag
Zobel
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As an engineer I lol at your as a PhD scientist comment.

Here's a tip: sometimes it don't work like it does at the lab.
94chem
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Just telling you I was trained as a skeptic. 90% of what I do in the lab fails. My neighborhood was a big experiment, and the results were unanticipated by many people. Engineers build the same thing over and over again to exacting specifications. This was clearly not an exercise in engineering. It was very much like the lab.

And yeah, I'm proud of my professional accomplishments. I've come on here many times asking for computer advice, car advice, real estate advice...you name it. If anybody needs help with chemistry, that's my field. I probably won't be able to offer any direct help, but I can point you to the right direction.
txags92
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That is what I was trying to explain several pages ago. Hydrologic modeling of stream flow and river rise is very easy in a single flow source/single flow channel problem where flow stays mostly within the channel. They can tell you how high it will go quite accurately and when and for how long it will crest. When the flow goes outside the channel, it becomes more difficult to model because you don't really know how fast the water moves when flowing through the woods, over roads, around houses, etc. When you add multiple flow sources (dam releases, tributary watersheds, etc.) it gets much harder, because then you have to look at changes to those flow sources and whether they act as barriers to downstream flow. Then when the tributaries start going out of their banks, it gets even harder to model, because you have no idea where that water is flowing, how fast it is flowing, or even how much water is actually flowing, when you get beyond bank full status. Then when you start stacking 10-20" of rain in about a 12-18 hour period on top of that, you have to add overland sheet flow of water to the modeling as another source of input, but also as a barrier to flow from the other sources.

As you can tell, that is a huge amount of very complicated modeling to do. And you have probably heard the phrase garbage in/garbage out? Well they have very detailed channel profiles for most of the watersheds to assist in the modeling. When the stream goes out of its banks, the profile kind of goes out the window depending on where and how extensively it leaves the channel. They also have at most 2-3 gauges per tributary to give them approximate elevation and flow measurements. So if even one of those gauges gets a chunk of debris stuck in it or is ripped loose by debris, then you have even less to work with. It very quickly becomes an impossible situation to try to accurately model it. So what do you do? Well you look at it empirically. What happened last time the stream got to this elevation? What did it look like last time we had this much rain? What about the last time we released this much water from the dam?

Keep in mind that for the 1979 floods, the rain was intensely focused on a small area around Alvin and Friendswood. For 1994, the very heavy rain was tightly centered on the are north and east of Houston. For Allison, the very heavy rain fell mostly on the near east side of town. Tax day was heavily focused on the Cypress and Waller areas. What I am getting at is that in each of the comparable type flood events, the heaviest of the record rains was localized to 1 or 2 watersheds. In this event, pretty much every watershed in the area received at or above record rainfall amounts over 12-24 hour periods at the same time or in close succession and over the entire watershed, not just a portion of it. The rainfall amounts were staggering, but the real killer was the areal extent of those rainfall totals. That all combined to setup a system for which there was no analog, no comparable storm to base a guesstimate off of, and no empirical basis for creating a model on the fly. All of their forecasts were guesses based on inadequate data and non-comparable previous flood events. And they were wrong in many cases. They guessed high on the Brazos flood height by nearly 4 feet initially. They guessed low on the Kingwood floods by several feet at least.

It wasn't malicious, it wasn't incompetence, it was science at the limits of data availability and modeling skill. It was what happens when you put in insufficient data from an event outside the calibrated limits of a model and ask it for a prediction. You have no idea if that prediction has any forecasting skill because the model has never been asked to go that far out of typical limits before. You just know it is the only one you have and you are out of time to go back and try again. What do you do with it?
Zobel
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Yup. All models are wrong; some are useful.
JustPanda
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We go to AggieChemist.
JustPanda
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After all of these posts, I'd love a copy of his dissertation to review. Most in our cohort had both the Major Area Paper and the dissertation published. Link to the abstract?
JustPanda
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When I was completing my PhD and teaching at A&M, we had a label inside DOD/DARPA for individuals with your cognitive paradigm: ostriches.


*Practicing My Humble Brag*
txags92
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NM
JustPanda
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Talking about 94chem
The Wonderer
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94chem said:

Guessing BigPuma hasn't been helping anybody pull drywall, donated anything to help victims, etc. Her character, just like all the grifters and criminals out to take advantage of people, is revealed by such events as these.
You can kindly go f.u.c.k. yourself because BigPuma actually drove through the storm and flood waters to help me when I was evacuating from inner Houston and allowed me to stay with him and his family for 3 days with my dog and then drove me back into Houston when the waters receded from my house. While I was staying with him, he and his wife fed me and were organizing and giving donations to local shelters, families, and churches.

Step the **** off with your ignorant ass comments. You don't have a ****ing clue.
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Liquid Wrench
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Guys, you clearly don't understand. Things like this just aren't supposed to happen to Kingwood. They can happen anywhere else in the region, and things like this do in fact happen every couple years to other areas in the region, but not to Kingwood, for God's sake. It's masterplanned.
88jrt06
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AgLiving06
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Apparently there was a town hall or something for Kingwood residents at 4 today. My parents were going to be able to make it, but said it would be to address the Lake Conroe release.
redag06
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Tony buzbee is meeting with kingwood people sometime this week.

Can't believe the folks who think something will come of this.
The Wonderer
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redag06 said:

Tony buzbee is meeting with kingwood people sometime this week.

Can't believe the folks who think something will come of this.
He's already reached out to people in Memorial for the Addicks and Barker releases.
txags92
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He will talk some other lawyers into giving him a bunch of money to go away, and the people he is representing will get a free lawn evaluation from Chemlawn and $0.37 in Home Depot coupons.
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The Wonderer
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Sasappis said:

The Wonderer said:

redag06 said:

Tony buzbee is meeting with kingwood people sometime this week.

Can't believe the folks who think something will come of this.
He's already reached out to people in Memorial for the Addicks and Barker releases.


There are only a few PI lawyers who can afford to chase this thing. He can devote a senior attorney and an associate or two plus a lot of support staff. The chances of this thing making any money is pretty slim and a very long ways away but sometimes it is worth the gamble.
Agreed. I don't think it's a winner, but I'm not a PI attorney.
txags92
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He doesn't have to win to make money. He just has to cause enough trouble to somebody that they save legal fees by paying him to go away.
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Finn Maccumhail
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txags92 said:

He will talk some other lawyers into giving him a bunch of money to go away, and the people he is representing will get a free lawn evaluation from Chemlawn and $0.37 in Home Depot coupons.

As long as he uses the proceeds to stroke a check for Sumlin's buyout I don't care.
txags92
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Sasappis said:

txags92 said:

He doesn't have to win to make money. He just has to cause enough trouble to somebody that they save legal fees by paying him to go away.


That is not the way it works when suing the government. The only way there will be a profit is if they prevail on the takings claim. It is possible that someone out there will pay an hourly fee to sue the government but that whale will be almost impossible to find. Everyone is going to be looking for a lawyer to take this on a contingency.

There is no cost of defense analysis by the government. They will also appeal all the way to the Supremes.
If it is like half the cases where USACE gets sued, they won't just sue the Corps, they will sue any contractors that were involved in any way in managing, operating, or maintaining the dam and spillways and try to keep as many of the cases in state court for as long as possible. The Corps will tell them to go pound sand, but the contractors don't have unlimited taxpayer funds to cover their own legal fees.
Jock 07
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The Wonderer said:

94chem said:

Guessing BigPuma hasn't been helping anybody pull drywall, donated anything to help victims, etc. Her character, just like all the grifters and criminals out to take advantage of people, is revealed by such events as these.
You can kindly go f.u.c.k. yourself because BigPuma actually drove through the storm and flood waters to help me when I was evacuating from inner Houston and allowed me to stay with him and his family for 3 days with my dog and then drove me back into Houston when the waters receded from my house. While I was staying with him, he and his wife fed me and were organizing and giving donations to local shelters, families, and churches.

Step the **** off with your ignorant ass comments. You don't have a ****ing clue.

94chem
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txags, good info. My understanding was that during this event, the release rates were twice what they were in 1994. If so, and maybe you can confirm this, I still don't see how they could predict a two foot lower crest. It's like doubling your calorie intake and claiming it's a weight loss program, especially when you add in what you were saying about the other watershed contributions. I don't know what Master-planned even means. I just bought a house because it was 4 minutes from work.

My dissertation was just mostly cut & paste from my publications. Many dissertations in chemistry are that way, because most advisors won't let you graduate until you have several papers.

As for the Kingwood hatred, I don't get it. Kingwood is way down the pecking order for wealthy Houston locales. The average person here went to college, works a hard week, and makes enough to pay the bills. I wish our community had a little more color, but oh well. Sometimes I go to The Woodlands for dinner so I can be reminded of my lower class status. If BigPuma wants to call it a bubble, she shouldn't be so thin-skinned. Let her take up for herself. Houstonians already have a huge inferiority complex. No need to feed it.

 
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