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Amber Guyger Trial

101,769 Views | 1267 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by Bocephus
nai06
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wbt5845 said:

Justice is not. And I think this is the right verdict. I agree she should be punished severely.

Applauding and cheering in front of the convicted as if you scored a touchdown is disgusting, repugnant and reprehensible. It shows a lack of fundamental human decency.


I see where you are coming from. But I don't fault the family for clapping when the verdict was read, especially when it seemed like she might be acquitted.

When a friend of ours was murdered a awhile back, I definitely felt like clapping when that POS was found guilty
wbt5845
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nai06 said:

wbt5845 said:

Justice is not. And I think this is the right verdict. I agree she should be punished severely.

Applauding and cheering in front of the convicted as if you scored a touchdown is disgusting, repugnant and reprehensible. It shows a lack of fundamental human decency.


I see where you are coming from. But I don't fault the family for clapping when the verdict was read, especially when it seemed like she might be acquitted.

When a friend of ours was murdered a awhile back, I definitely felt like clapping when that POS was found guilty
Did you?

No?

There's the difference. And that was an assailant who killed on purpose, not by accident, and you still stifled yourself.
Bob Loblaws Law Blog
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hypeiv said:

HouseDivided06 said:

Is it not possible to realize it is a tragedy on BOTH sides and be empathetic for BOTH sides on this? I believe her that it was an honest, terrible mistake. You keep looking at it from the Botham Jean side, but using your own emotional appeals, imagine if Amber was your daughter or sister. You believe she made a terrible mistake, thought she was in her apartment, and believed she was acting self defense. Legitimately believed she was in danger and in her own apartment. But yet you want to cheer at her conviction? I see both sides, I see how murder was the verdict, and I also see how she could have walked given this incredibly unique set of circumstances. But to assume Botham Jean was "just another guy" to people who think that the state didn't prove beyond reasonable doubt that her mistake in fact defense was reasonable is obtuse.


I believe she honestly thought it was her apartment... I also believe she is a bully and decided she wasn't going to let someone mess up her place and went in with the intent to kill.

Even if it had been her apartment, and the same thing happened, I would still think she was a murderer. She could have easily stayed in the hallway with her gun drawn and called for backup (even if it was her apartment). She decided not to do that and that makes her a murderer in my eyes. A reasonable person would not rush into their house if they knew there was a threat in there, but she did b/c she was a tough guy with a gun.

Especially with no other living things to "save". I could understand going in then, but the risk of going in to save some stuff didn't make sense to me.
HouseDivided06
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hypeiv said:

HouseDivided06 said:

Is it not possible to realize it is a tragedy on BOTH sides and be empathetic for BOTH sides on this? I believe her that it was an honest, terrible mistake. You keep looking at it from the Botham Jean side, but using your own emotional appeals, imagine if Amber was your daughter or sister. You believe she made a terrible mistake, thought she was in her apartment, and believed she was acting self defense. Legitimately believed she was in danger and in her own apartment. But yet you want to cheer at her conviction? I see both sides, I see how murder was the verdict, and I also see how she could have walked given this incredibly unique set of circumstances. But to assume Botham Jean was "just another guy" to people who think that the state didn't prove beyond reasonable doubt that her mistake in fact defense was reasonable is obtuse.


I believe she honestly thought it was her apartment... I also believe she is a bully and decided she wasn't going to let someone mess up her place and went in with the intent to kill.

Even if it had been her apartment, and the same thing happened, I would still think she was a murderer. She could have easily stayed in the hallway with her gun drawn and called for backup (even if it was her apartment). She decided not to do that and that makes her a murderer in my eyes. A reasonable person would not rush into their house if they knew there was a threat in there, but she did b/c she was a tough guy with a gun.
But see, the issue is the prosecution needed to PROVE THAT BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT. In my opinion, they did not do that, although I completely understand the verdict. However you are making a massive assumption in believing she decided to go in guns blazing in a premeditated fashion. She may well have, but her testimony and the sequence of events leads me to believe that is not the case. And it's fine if we both have differing opinions on what we believe to be the circumstances, but from a legal perspective, I don't see how the prosecution proved that beyond reasonable doubt.
PlaneCrashGuy
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Question for those that thought it was shameful for the parents of Botham to celebrate the conviction, would it have been just as tasteless for Guyger to react in any positive way if it went the other way?
Bob Loblaws Law Blog
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Well, according to 12 people who have done nothing but listen and think about this case for a week, they did prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.
double aught
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Looking at this legally and without emotion, I think she should've been found not guilty.
Ed Carter
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nai06 said:



When a friend of ours was murdered a awhile back, I definitely felt like clapping when that POS was found guilty


So were those circumstances the same as the circumstances in this case?
expresswrittenconsent
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Weird that the two self proclaimed experts of the thread were wrong.
HouseDivided06
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Yes, 100%.
PlaneCrashGuy
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I appreciate the consistency
double aught
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expresswrittenconsent said:

Weird that the two self proclaimed experts of the thread were wrong.

Did anyone make such a proclamation?
CashinOut
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So does this verdict relieve some of the tensions between race vs police in Dallas?
Bob Loblaws Law Blog
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double aught said:

expresswrittenconsent said:

Weird that the two self proclaimed experts of the thread were wrong.

Did anyone make such a proclamation?

A couple people did give off the impression they were experts, but I appreciated their insight and explained several things I wasn't aware of.
HouseDivided06
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Understood, and I understand why they came to that conclusion, as I said. I mentioned multiple times that I could see a hung jury, a manslaughter conviction, a murder conviction, and a not guilty acquittal. No winners here. Personally, after watching the vast majority of the trial and understanding the legal burden of proof the prosecution needed to meet, I would have voted not guilty. But I understand why they did not.
ElephantRider
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I agree with the verdict, but I hate that it's being twisted to be a race issue.
tysker
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HouseDivided06 said:

hypeiv said:

HouseDivided06 said:

Is it not possible to realize it is a tragedy on BOTH sides and be empathetic for BOTH sides on this? I believe her that it was an honest, terrible mistake. You keep looking at it from the Botham Jean side, but using your own emotional appeals, imagine if Amber was your daughter or sister. You believe she made a terrible mistake, thought she was in her apartment, and believed she was acting self defense. Legitimately believed she was in danger and in her own apartment. But yet you want to cheer at her conviction? I see both sides, I see how murder was the verdict, and I also see how she could have walked given this incredibly unique set of circumstances. But to assume Botham Jean was "just another guy" to people who think that the state didn't prove beyond reasonable doubt that her mistake in fact defense was reasonable is obtuse.


I believe she honestly thought it was her apartment... I also believe she is a bully and decided she wasn't going to let someone mess up her place and went in with the intent to kill.

Even if it had been her apartment, and the same thing happened, I would still think she was a murderer. She could have easily stayed in the hallway with her gun drawn and called for backup (even if it was her apartment). She decided not to do that and that makes her a murderer in my eyes. A reasonable person would not rush into their house if they knew there was a threat in there, but she did b/c she was a tough guy with a gun.
But see, the issue is the prosecution needed to PROVE THAT BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT. In my opinion, they did not do that, although I completely understand the verdict. However you are making a massive assumption in believing she decided to go in guns blazing in a premeditated fashion. She may well have, but her testimony and the sequence of events leads me to believe that is not the case. And it's fine if we both have differing opinions on what we believe to be the circumstances, but from a legal perspective, I don't see how the prosecution proved that beyond reasonable doubt.
She testified to shooting with an intention to kill a man in his own apartment.
Ed Carter
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No it won't.

It will, however, hopefully cut down on any acute rioting that would have taken place if she wasn't convicted of murder. We will see what happens after sentencing though...
HouseDivided06
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Which is why I understand the verdict, but the burden of proof was with the prosecution that her mistake in fact defense was unreasonable beyond a reasonable doubt. I believe there was a plethora of reasonable doubt. The jury didn't. I get it. I just don't think it is as cut and dry as the "she killed him she is guilty" people make it out to be.
aggietony2010
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tysker said:

HouseDivided06 said:

hypeiv said:

HouseDivided06 said:

Is it not possible to realize it is a tragedy on BOTH sides and be empathetic for BOTH sides on this? I believe her that it was an honest, terrible mistake. You keep looking at it from the Botham Jean side, but using your own emotional appeals, imagine if Amber was your daughter or sister. You believe she made a terrible mistake, thought she was in her apartment, and believed she was acting self defense. Legitimately believed she was in danger and in her own apartment. But yet you want to cheer at her conviction? I see both sides, I see how murder was the verdict, and I also see how she could have walked given this incredibly unique set of circumstances. But to assume Botham Jean was "just another guy" to people who think that the state didn't prove beyond reasonable doubt that her mistake in fact defense was reasonable is obtuse.


I believe she honestly thought it was her apartment... I also believe she is a bully and decided she wasn't going to let someone mess up her place and went in with the intent to kill.

Even if it had been her apartment, and the same thing happened, I would still think she was a murderer. She could have easily stayed in the hallway with her gun drawn and called for backup (even if it was her apartment). She decided not to do that and that makes her a murderer in my eyes. A reasonable person would not rush into their house if they knew there was a threat in there, but she did b/c she was a tough guy with a gun.
But see, the issue is the prosecution needed to PROVE THAT BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT. In my opinion, they did not do that, although I completely understand the verdict. However you are making a massive assumption in believing she decided to go in guns blazing in a premeditated fashion. She may well have, but her testimony and the sequence of events leads me to believe that is not the case. And it's fine if we both have differing opinions on what we believe to be the circumstances, but from a legal perspective, I don't see how the prosecution proved that beyond reasonable doubt.
She testified to shooting with an intention to kill a man in his own apartment.


That part was never up for debate. The mistake of fact and self defense were the real focuses here. As long as the jury properly followed those instructions, then I can have no disagreement with the verdict.

But based on how those instructions read, I have my doubts that they followed them 100% correctly.
double aught
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HouseDivided06 said:

Which is why I understand the verdict, but the burden of proof was with the prosecution that her mistake in fact defense was unreasonable beyond a reasonable doubt. I believe there was a plethora of reasonable doubt. The jury didn't. I get it. I just don't think it is as cut and dry as the "she killed him she is guilty" people make it out to be.
I agree. To me, this case is tailor made for mistake of fact.
JDCAG (NOT Colin)
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tysker said:

HouseDivided06 said:

hypeiv said:

HouseDivided06 said:

Is it not possible to realize it is a tragedy on BOTH sides and be empathetic for BOTH sides on this? I believe her that it was an honest, terrible mistake. You keep looking at it from the Botham Jean side, but using your own emotional appeals, imagine if Amber was your daughter or sister. You believe she made a terrible mistake, thought she was in her apartment, and believed she was acting self defense. Legitimately believed she was in danger and in her own apartment. But yet you want to cheer at her conviction? I see both sides, I see how murder was the verdict, and I also see how she could have walked given this incredibly unique set of circumstances. But to assume Botham Jean was "just another guy" to people who think that the state didn't prove beyond reasonable doubt that her mistake in fact defense was reasonable is obtuse.


I believe she honestly thought it was her apartment... I also believe she is a bully and decided she wasn't going to let someone mess up her place and went in with the intent to kill.

Even if it had been her apartment, and the same thing happened, I would still think she was a murderer. She could have easily stayed in the hallway with her gun drawn and called for backup (even if it was her apartment). She decided not to do that and that makes her a murderer in my eyes. A reasonable person would not rush into their house if they knew there was a threat in there, but she did b/c she was a tough guy with a gun.
But see, the issue is the prosecution needed to PROVE THAT BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT. In my opinion, they did not do that, although I completely understand the verdict. However you are making a massive assumption in believing she decided to go in guns blazing in a premeditated fashion. She may well have, but her testimony and the sequence of events leads me to believe that is not the case. And it's fine if we both have differing opinions on what we believe to be the circumstances, but from a legal perspective, I don't see how the prosecution proved that beyond reasonable doubt.
She testified to shooting with an intention to kill a man in his own apartment.


I'm happy with the verdict, but to be clear - she testified to shooting with the intention to kill a man that she believed to be in her apartment. To state otherwise is to miss the primary legal argument used in the entire case.

Again, I'm good with the verdict as you can't just kill somebody in their apartment, but I think this was the case of the jury going with the verdict they believed appropriate, regardless of whether or not the required burden under the law was met.
Know Your Enemy
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Was this trial televised? How do the people saying the prosecution didn't prove their case know all the facts as they were presented to the jury? Did you sit in every day on the trial?
wbt5845
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lda6339 said:

Question for those that thought it was shameful for the parents of Botham to celebrate the conviction, would it have been just as tasteless for Guyger to react in any positive way if it went the other way?

Yes, I would call her an animal for blatant disregard of the feelings of the dead mans family.
Ervin Burrell
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Junkhead said:

Was this trial televised? How do the people saying the prosecution didn't prove their case know all the facts as they were presented to the jury? Did you sit in every day on the trial?
I mean, it was livestreamed at the very least. I would assume the likes of Court TV broadcasted it - do you think this thread would have reached 650 replies if we weren't watching it?
PlaneCrashGuy
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Junkhead said:

Was this trial televised? How do the people saying the prosecution didn't prove their case know all the facts as they were presented to the jury? Did you sit in every day on the trial?


I listened to it at my desk in full everyday day from Day 2 onward. I think most people did not do this and simply went with a "protect the cop" mindset.

If you listened to it, the prosecution was very convincing
HouseDivided06
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Streamed it via WFAA on my computer at work basically the whole time.
powerbelly
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lda6339 said:

Junkhead said:

Was this trial televised? How do the people saying the prosecution didn't prove their case know all the facts as they were presented to the jury? Did you sit in every day on the trial?


I listened to it at my desk in full everyday day from Day 2 onward. I think most people did not do this and simply went with a "protect the cop" mindset.

If you listened to it, the prosecution was very convincing
Agree to disagree here.

I think they failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
HouseDivided06
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powerbelly said:

lda6339 said:

Junkhead said:

Was this trial televised? How do the people saying the prosecution didn't prove their case know all the facts as they were presented to the jury? Did you sit in every day on the trial?


I listened to it at my desk in full everyday day from Day 2 onward. I think most people did not do this and simply went with a "protect the cop" mindset.

If you listened to it, the prosecution was very convincing
Agree to disagree here.

I think they failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
Yep. This.
AgBQ-00
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I listened to the trial via live stream in the background. I believed the defense made the better case. Never once thought about protect the cop. Don't believe anyone on this thread did either. It was a crappy situation from start to finish. While I believe she should face punishment for the killing I do not believe the prosecution rose to the level required by law to get the conviction. The jury saw it differently. The appeal will be intriguing as well.
Communists aren't people. They are property of the state.
wbt5845
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In short, the law only fit two outcomes: guilty of murder or not guilty.

Since Guyger was the only living witness, it came down to whether the jury believed her or not. They apparently did not.
LSB_2002
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ElephantRider said:

I agree with the verdict, but I hate that it's being twisted to be a race issue.
This case has never been anything but a race issue! Hence the celebration downtown Dallas tonight at 6:30. Are we really going to celebrate the fact that a Dallas cop is being sent to prison for murder? Really????
double aught
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What is there to not believe?
Know Your Enemy
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LSB_2002 said:

ElephantRider said:

I agree with the verdict, but I hate that it's being twisted to be a race issue.
This case has never been anything but a race issue! Hence the celebration downtown Dallas tonight at 6:30. Are we really going to celebrate the fact that a Dallas cop is being sent to prison for murder? Really????
Pretty sure people will be celebrating what they believe to be justice for the murder of an innocent man.
LSB_2002
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powerbelly said:

lda6339 said:

Junkhead said:

Was this trial televised? How do the people saying the prosecution didn't prove their case know all the facts as they were presented to the jury? Did you sit in every day on the trial?


I listened to it at my desk in full everyday day from Day 2 onward. I think most people did not do this and simply went with a "protect the cop" mindset.

If you listened to it, the prosecution was very convincing
Agree to disagree here.

I think they failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
I'm with you on that! I honestly felt the prosecution made the defenses case for them! Strange how this one worked out!
 
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