TheEternalPessimist said:

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Putin should not escalate.

Ukraine should not escalate.

NATO should not escalate.

Pray for peace.

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How would Ukraine "escalate"?

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Putin to announce the end of the special operation tomorrow

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Oh my, he went woke and will soon demand he be called Hilda.


Edit: Wait, "the end of an operation". Oh well, I tried.

J. Walter Weatherman said:

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TheEternalPessimist said:

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Putin should not escalate.

Ukraine should not escalate.

NATO should not escalate.

Pray for peace.

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How would Ukraine "escalate"?

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Putin said special operation in Ukraine to stop war that has been happening since 2014

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Russian President Vladimir Putin said Wednesday that Moscow's action in Ukraine was intended to stop a "war" that has raged in eastern Ukraine for many years.
Speaking at a meeting with veterans, Putin said Moscow had long sought to negotiate a settlement to the conflict in Ukraine's Donbas, an eastern industrial region where Russia-backed separatists have battled Ukrainian forces since 2014.
"Large-scale combat operations involving heavy weapons, artillery, tanks and aircraft haven't stopped in Donbas since 2014," Putin said. "All that we are doing today as part of the special military operation is an attempt to stop this war. This is the meaning of our operation protecting people who live on those territories."
Putin insisted again that Russia tried to negotiate a peaceful settlement to the separatist conflict before sending in troops, and said "we were just duped and cheated."

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Just trying to spin everything to make Russia look like the victim. Don't think anyone outside of Russia believes this

MuchosPollos said:

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TacosaurusRex said:

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I am also interested in what happened in 1991. Can you explain that please? The only thing I can think of was the Wall coming down, but that was in 89 wasn't it?

ETA: The first Gulf War? That fits the time frame, but Russia couldn't do crap to help its ally?

Sorry this, was meant to reply to Mucho.

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1991 look it up…..

Again F16 being deliberately obtuse…..at the height of the Cold War the west DIDN'T engage in any malicious attempts or behind the scenes actions to topple the communist USSR??? That's what y'all believe, really?

I've got a bridge to sell if anyone is interested.

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The problem for Russia is that their military is largely the same as it was in 1991. They simply don't have the equipment and ability to do what you think they can do. It's not 1941 anymore. Modern weapons can repel whatever meat the Russians want to throw in the grinder. And all they have is meat.

Rapier108 said:

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We didn't need to do anything to bring down the USSR from the inside.

All we had to do was bankrupt them which Reagan did with his military build up and SDI.

What finished them off was of their own making, Chernobyl going boom.

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Afghanistan quagmire was also damaging as well. It was all coming to a head. But chernobyl and afghanistan accelarated things beyond control.

P.U.T.U said:

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Putin said special operation in Ukraine to stop war that has been happening since 2014

Quote:

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Russian President Vladimir Putin said Wednesday that Moscow's action in Ukraine was intended to stop a "war" that has raged in eastern Ukraine for many years.
Speaking at a meeting with veterans, Putin said Moscow had long sought to negotiate a settlement to the conflict in Ukraine's Donbas, an eastern industrial region where Russia-backed separatists have battled Ukrainian forces since 2014.
"Large-scale combat operations involving heavy weapons, artillery, tanks and aircraft haven't stopped in Donbas since 2014," Putin said. "All that we are doing today as part of the special military operation is an attempt to stop this war. This is the meaning of our operation protecting people who live on those territories."
Putin insisted again that Russia tried to negotiate a peaceful settlement to the separatist conflict before sending in troops, and said "we were just duped and cheated."

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Just trying to spin everything to make Russia look like the victim. Don't think anyone outside of Russia believes this

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I believe him when he says Russia tried to negotiate a peace. However that peace most likely involved Donetsk and Luhansk becoming independent from Ukraine, and then being incorporated into the Russian federation.

Ukraine was never going to accept that, so the two parties danced around and lied to each other until we got here.

Is Russia to blame for this war? Absolutely, but if Ukraine had put down the Donbas rebellions with the same ferocity it is fighting with now Russia would have never invaded. Because Ukraine's response to the Donbas rebellion was so relatively tepid, they thought they could run over the Ukrainians for a quick victory.

Who cares if this fool takes a sliver of Ukraine? or the whole damn thing? Our country may very well collapse within the next 5 years with the stupid sh** we are pushing here. We need to be fighting to save our own damn country...not some POS far eastern euro country. Who GAF about them?

The war on Ukraine will stop under one of the three following conditions:
-Ukraine loses completely
-Ukraine brokers piece by being able to credibly destroy Crimea
-Ukraine wins completely
-Russia loses so many men and arms that they can no longer defend their capital from an invasion and they have to pull out.

Brittmoore Car Club said:

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Who cares if this fool takes a sliver of Ukraine? or the whole damn thing? Our country may very well collapse within the next 5 years with the stupid sh** we are pushing here. We need to be fighting to save our own damn country...not some POS far eastern euro country. Who GAF about them?

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We aren't doing this because we care about Ukraine.

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The problem for Russia is that their military is largely the same as it was in 1991. They simply don't have the equipment and ability to do what you think they can do. It's not 1941 anymore. Modern weapons can repel whatever meat the Russians want to throw in the grinder. And all they have is meat.

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I wish they did. I would rather them have that than enough nukes to destroy our planet several times over.

So far more Russians have died in a year in Ukraine than have in 10 years in Afghanistan. Kind of crazy that Russia is saying they are winning so far.

Brittmoore Car Club said:

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Who cares if this fool takes a sliver of Ukraine? or the whole damn thing? Our country may very well collapse within the next 5 years with the stupid sh** we are pushing here. We need to be fighting to save our own damn country...not some POS far eastern euro country. Who GAF about them?

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You must be new to politics, because since I was a kid I've heard that our country was going to collapse and yet here we are, still better by comparison, than any other country, just like always in my lifetime.

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They simply don't have the equipment and ability to do what you think they can do. It's not 1941 anymore. Modern weapons can repel whatever meat the Russians want to throw in the grinder. And all they have is meat.

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Weapons have always been modernized. Stones, clubs, spears, chariots, phalanx, short swords, long bows, cannons, muskets, rifles, machine guns, submarines, airplanes, nukes, ICBMs, stealth, drones, hypersonic, directed energy, AI etc. Yet wars continue to happen....

If you believe the headlines coming out of Russia, they feel that NATO is trying to wipe Russia off the map. Do you expect them to roll over and give up because our weapons are slightly more advanced? Their history shows they don't do that even if it means putting millions into the grinder.

The Afghans were able to withstand our vastly superior military with used Toyotas and donkeys. I think you're buying a little too much into the MIC "our weapons are so far superior that anyone would be stupid to fight us" propaganda.

Teslag said:

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Brittmoore Car Club said:

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Who cares if this fool takes a sliver of Ukraine? or the whole damn thing? Our country may very well collapse within the next 5 years with the stupid sh** we are pushing here. We need to be fighting to save our own damn country...not some POS far eastern euro country. Who GAF about them?

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We aren't doing this because we care about Ukraine.

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Why? It's a crap country that does not impact us at all.

Why aren't we fighting all across the globe? Do we not care about people in Africa getting slaughtered? China? Spare me the "we care" BS. Why don't we go fight the Saudi's or Iranians?

If we "cared" we wouldn't be depending on African slaves and child slaves risking their lives, breaking their backs and breathing in toxic chemicals and fumes so that we could have our fancy Teslas and iPhones, all while absolutely annihilating their environment.

Honestly, if you "cared", you wouldn't be driving a Tesla...EV batteries are HORRIBLE for the environment and Africans/African children.

one MEEN Ag said:

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The war on Ukraine will stop under one of the three following conditions:
-Ukraine loses completely
-Ukraine brokers piece by being able to credibly destroy Crimea
-Ukraine wins completely
-Russia loses so many men and arms that they can no longer defend their capital from an invasion and they have to pull out.

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We have been told it is wildly inappropriate and war crimes to invade another country just because they are weaker or in a weakened state.

i said dont believe "everything" the media says, not "anything".

There is a vast difference between the taliban playing defense in their homeland against an aggressor with no real goals. The Russians are invading a tough determined nation with vastly superior weaponry. And as long as the military industrial complex profits off that then Ukraine will have whatever they want for however long they need it.

MuchosPollos said:

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We are fighting a society that has survived fighting the worlds superpowers for generations. The Germans couldn't beat them in the 1940s, the French couldn't do it in 1812.

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This is an apples and oranges comparison.

When Napoleon and Hitler fought Russia/USSR, Russia/USSR was on the defensive. They had the advantage of being on their own territory, and both France and Russia were hampered by exceedingly long logistic trains, which impaired their ability to supply their armies with weapons, ammo, food, medicines, uniforms, etc. For Russia, it was an all-hands-on-deck defensive effort. Moreover, Russia had the advantage of the brutally cold winters limiting the effectiveness of the invaders.

In the RUS-UKR war, Russia is the invader. Russia has the long logistics trains. They are fighting an army that is equally (if not better) equipped, and the advantage of the weather is blunted, since UKR a) is used to the same cold, and b) has better access to winter gear.

fka ftc said:

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one MEEN Ag said:

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The war on Ukraine will stop under one of the three following conditions:
-Ukraine loses completely
-Ukraine brokers piece by being able to credibly destroy Crimea
-Ukraine wins completely
-Russia loses so many men and arms that they can no longer defend their capital from an invasion and they have to pull out.

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We have been told it is wildly inappropriate and war crimes to invade another country just because they are weaker or in a weakened state.

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Not saying it'll happen. But if Russia exhausts ever last man and piece of equipment in Ukraine someone (probably internally or on the eastern borders) will waltz into Moscow shortly after.

one MEEN Ag said:

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fka ftc said:

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one MEEN Ag said:

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The war on Ukraine will stop under one of the three following conditions:
-Ukraine loses completely
-Ukraine brokers piece by being able to credibly destroy Crimea
-Ukraine wins completely
-Russia loses so many men and arms that they can no longer defend their capital from an invasion and they have to pull out.

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We have been told it is wildly inappropriate and war crimes to invade another country just because they are weaker or in a weakened state.

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Not saying it'll happen. But if Russia exhausts ever last man and piece of equipment in Ukraine someone (probably internally or on the eastern borders) will waltz into Moscow shortly after.

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I don't even think it has to get close to that. Once the families of men in Moscow and St. Petersburg start getting their can of spam and potatoes with a letter saying that their son/father/brother is unaccounted for, the internal power struggle will be enough.

Russia is a dying nation, literally. Before the war the retirement age was higher than the average age of death in Russia. Drugs and alcohol are killing the country and the only part of the population that is growing are the Muslims.

one MEEN Ag said:

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fka ftc said:

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one MEEN Ag said:

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The war on Ukraine will stop under one of the three following conditions:
-Ukraine loses completely
-Ukraine brokers piece by being able to credibly destroy Crimea
-Ukraine wins completely
-Russia loses so many men and arms that they can no longer defend their capital from an invasion and they have to pull out.

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We have been told it is wildly inappropriate and war crimes to invade another country just because they are weaker or in a weakened state.

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Not saying it'll happen. But if Russia exhausts ever last man and piece of equipment in Ukraine someone (probably internally or on the eastern borders) will waltz into Moscow shortly after.

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Someone needs to explain how that would be preferential to the current state of affairs.

I do not think it would be a positive development.

fka ftc said:

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one MEEN Ag said:

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fka ftc said:

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one MEEN Ag said:

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The war on Ukraine will stop under one of the three following conditions:
-Ukraine loses completely
-Ukraine brokers piece by being able to credibly destroy Crimea
-Ukraine wins completely
-Russia loses so many men and arms that they can no longer defend their capital from an invasion and they have to pull out.

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We have been told it is wildly inappropriate and war crimes to invade another country just because they are weaker or in a weakened state.

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Not saying it'll happen. But if Russia exhausts ever last man and piece of equipment in Ukraine someone (probably internally or on the eastern borders) will waltz into Moscow shortly after.

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Someone needs to explain how that would be preferential to the current state of affairs.

I do not think it would be a positive development.

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I didn't say anything about it being preferential. And a risk of an internal collapse has always been on the table since the Russians decided to risk their countries future on this war.

I was just describing a list of different ways I think this war actually ends. I think it'll be a mix of those scenarios. Ukraine is fighting until the last man standing, they don't have another option. Russia has wagered its whole countries economic future on the resource gains of Ukraine. Russia can't walk away empty handed because the sanctions will not be lifted until a regime change happens and Ukraine is restored. Pacification of Russia is not part of the Russian ideology.

Sorry, was not intending to contradict you or assign a position on the matter. Understand you are just showing possible outcomes. I was only commenting that the potential takeover of Russia by some unknown at this point power would likely not be a positive thing.

Not sure Ukraine will fight until last man standing. That has NOT been their historical style. They lean way more to the French when it comes to white (or blue and yellow) flag waving.

It's 8:30pm in St Petersburg.

Has this announcement happened?

Currently having trouble directing the antenna on my russian made TV to the appropriate state media channel. Please be patient.

vance- said:

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Agthatbuilds said:

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vance- said:

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Agthatbuilds said:

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Yes, the Russian embeds are known for their accuracy and honesty

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Uh, yeah, actually, since this war has started they have been spot on.

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That's patently false and helps explains your disposition.

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And you clearly havent been following the war closely. Russian telegram channels have been spot on the entire war with their tactical analysis' and predictions as well as # reports. What are you talking about?

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The same ones that said the push for Kyiv was a feint?

Brittmoore Car Club said:

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Teslag said:

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Brittmoore Car Club said:

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Who cares if this fool takes a sliver of Ukraine? or the whole damn thing? Our country may very well collapse within the next 5 years with the stupid sh** we are pushing here. We need to be fighting to save our own damn country...not some POS far eastern euro country. Who GAF about them?

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We aren't doing this because we care about Ukraine.

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Why? It's a crap country that does not impact us at all.

Why aren't we fighting all across the globe? Do we not care about people in Africa getting slaughtered? China? Spare me the "we care" BS. Why don't we go fight the Saudi's or Iranians?

If we "cared" we wouldn't be depending on African slaves and child slaves risking their lives, breaking their backs and breathing in toxic chemicals and fumes so that we could have our fancy Teslas and iPhones, all while absolutely annihilating their environment.

Honestly, if you "cared", you wouldn't be driving a Tesla...EV batteries are HORRIBLE for the environment and Africans/African children.

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Because we promised them protection in exchange for them getting rid of their nukes. We have no such agreement with people in Africa, China, etc.

aTmAg said:

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Brittmoore Car Club said:

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Teslag said:

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Brittmoore Car Club said:

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Who cares if this fool takes a sliver of Ukraine? or the whole damn thing? Our country may very well collapse within the next 5 years with the stupid sh** we are pushing here. We need to be fighting to save our own damn country...not some POS far eastern euro country. Who GAF about them?

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We aren't doing this because we care about Ukraine.

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Why? It's a crap country that does not impact us at all.

Why aren't we fighting all across the globe? Do we not care about people in Africa getting slaughtered? China? Spare me the "we care" BS. Why don't we go fight the Saudi's or Iranians?

If we "cared" we wouldn't be depending on African slaves and child slaves risking their lives, breaking their backs and breathing in toxic chemicals and fumes so that we could have our fancy Teslas and iPhones, all while absolutely annihilating their environment.

Honestly, if you "cared", you wouldn't be driving a Tesla...EV batteries are HORRIBLE for the environment and Africans/African children.

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Because we promised them protection in exchange for them getting rid of their nukes. We have no such agreement with people in Africa, China, etc.

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Is there a treaty on this? Asking for real, there has been mention of this agreement but I thought it was more of an understanding than an actual promise. May be wrong though.

fka ftc said:

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aTmAg said:

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Brittmoore Car Club said:

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Teslag said:

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Brittmoore Car Club said:

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Who cares if this fool takes a sliver of Ukraine? or the whole damn thing? Our country may very well collapse within the next 5 years with the stupid sh** we are pushing here. We need to be fighting to save our own damn country...not some POS far eastern euro country. Who GAF about them?

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We aren't doing this because we care about Ukraine.

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Why? It's a crap country that does not impact us at all.

Why aren't we fighting all across the globe? Do we not care about people in Africa getting slaughtered? China? Spare me the "we care" BS. Why don't we go fight the Saudi's or Iranians?

If we "cared" we wouldn't be depending on African slaves and child slaves risking their lives, breaking their backs and breathing in toxic chemicals and fumes so that we could have our fancy Teslas and iPhones, all while absolutely annihilating their environment.

Honestly, if you "cared", you wouldn't be driving a Tesla...EV batteries are HORRIBLE for the environment and Africans/African children.

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Because we promised them protection in exchange for them getting rid of their nukes. We have no such agreement with people in Africa, China, etc.

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Is there a treaty on this? Asking for real, there has been mention of this agreement but I thought it was more of an understanding than an actual promise. May be wrong though.

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It's called the Budapest Memorandum signed in 1994.

Well the Ukraine Fan Boy thread won't like this

fka ftc said:

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one MEEN Ag said:

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The war on Ukraine will stop under one of the three following conditions:
-Ukraine loses completely
-Ukraine brokers piece by being able to credibly destroy Crimea
-Ukraine wins completely
-Russia loses so many men and arms that they can no longer defend their capital from an invasion and they have to pull out.

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We have been told it is wildly inappropriate and war crimes to invade another country just because they are weaker or in a weakened state.

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I agree and also find it absurd

Conquest had been a cause for war for our entire history. To now drop parameters on it as to what constitutes a "valid" war I find strange.

And i'm not condoning Russia, just making a general statement