TexasRebel said:

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p-townag said:

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TexasRebel said:

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p-townag said:

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I'm not sure what you're asking, but if you'll clarify I'm happy to answer

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Northeast Blackout for 4 days.

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If I still have a cell phone, I buy things with Bitcoin with other people's and business's cell phones. The same thought experiment is true as we transition away from paper dollars. Some of us have enough paper currency to transact, but a great number of people only have their credit cards and Apple Pay. It's not a very different situation than what would happen in the traditional system. And, again, we're still a very long way from Bitcoin being the dominant medium of exchange, so we'll have to innovate to decide what should happen in blackouts. We'll have dollars around for a very long time.

I think of Bitcoin as my savings account and dollars as my checking account.

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Yeah, communication power failed, too. Read about it.

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Again, I answered that question. When or if we get to the point where Bitcoin COMPLETELY replaces the dollar, we'll have decided and innovated a solution to how we transact when the power goes off. All hospital records are completely electronic. And, unsurprisingly, we have a system in place to keep the hospital going when the power or the electronic medical record system goes down.

Nobody is buying food or gasoline with medical records.

TexasRebel said:

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p-townag said:

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TexasRebel said:

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Why would anyone ever spend "money" that will be worth more tomorrow?

There are always other methods to use to fulfill needs. Don't buy a sandwich with your 401k.

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Because they know that what they have left will continue to increase in value. What they earn at their job will continue to increase in value. It also creates incentive for saving and not blowing money on useless stuff. If I'm going to part with my Bitcoin, it better be worth it. I'm not going to buy worthless junk.

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Why would they be paid in a store of value?
It's cheaper to directly pay them in sandwiches and company housing.

You want the coal mine towns back, huh? Ever wonder why they weren't paid in coal or cash?

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In that scenario Bitcoin would be past the store of value phase and in the medium of exchange phase. But, its value would still increase over time, just much more slowly and less violently.

TexasRebel said:

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Nobody is buying food or gasoline with medical records.

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Correct. We're only worried about a hospital full of patients dying. Also quite important.

This is a terrible analogy.

Nobody cares if multiple copies of a medical record exist.

Doctors aren't idiots, and can treat a patient without prior knowledge of said patient.

The patient can often simply tell the doctor their medical history.

It's actually a great analogy. EMRs aren't just for "histories." They're how we dispense medications, view telemetry readings, perform and view emergent CTs and X-rays, view emergent lab work, adjust ventilator settings, etc.

Again.

Nobody cares if multiple copies of a medical history exist.

Every record can be at every hospital simultaneously and even used simultaneously.

That doesn't work with anything that is supposed to represent value.

TexasRebel said:

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Again.

Nobody cares if multiple copies of a medical history exist.

Every record can be at every hospital simultaneously and even used simultaneously.

That doesn't work with anything that is supposed to represent value.

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Besides every hospital staff that deal with them. I feel like one of the largest complaints in the industry right now is that the doctors are drowning in bureaucratic processes sorting through redundant information instead of actually helping people.

Are you trying to say doctors don't want medical records backed up offsite?

Not at all. Im saying there is utility in having one record backed up in on the block chain. It is a change in subject though, sorry for the digression.

You literally have no idea what you're talking about. Let me make it more simple.

EMR = electronic medical record system
Every single function a doctor performs goes through the EMR. Life saving medical care in a hospital cannot happen without it. It's not just "notes." Every time I order a medication or a lab test or imaging study, it has to be entered into the EMR and processed through the EMR or it doesn't happen. It is vital to keep patients alive. Without it, people die. It requires electricity and cannot exist without computers.

***BUT***

Since we rely on it completely, we have developed paper backup plans and generators to allow the hospital to continue to function for life saving activities even if a blackout were to happen. All the while, the hospital is scrambling to get the power back on and back to normal functioning.

In the very same way, in your scenario where Bitcoin is money, we know that we have to have backup plans for when the power goes out to be able to carry on vital societal functions while we scramble to get the power back on. Whether that's temporary paper options or generators, or whatever, we'll have installed those backup plans by the time Bitcoin becomes the only money.

p-townag said:

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You literally have no idea what you're talking about. Let me make it more simple.

EMR = electronic medical record system
Every single function a doctor performs goes through the EMR. Life saving medical care in a hospital cannot happen without it. It's not just "notes." Every time I order a medication or a lab test or imaging study, it has to be entered into the EMR and processed through the EMR or it doesn't happen. It is vital to keep patients alive. Without it, people die. It requires electricity and cannot exist without computers.

***BUT***

Since we rely on it completely, we have developed paper backup plans and generators to allow the hospital to continue to function for life saving activities even if a blackout were to happen. All the while, the hospital is scrambling to get the power back on and back to normal functioning.

In the very same way, in your scenario where Bitcoin is money, we know that we have to have backup plans for when the power goes out to be able to carry on vital societal functions while we scramble to get the power back on. Whether that's temporary paper options or generators, or whatever, we'll have installed those backup plans by the time Bitcoin becomes the only money.

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Fify

Agreed. The cost of being unable to access communications would be so high innovation or standardization would implement a solution.

It's ridiculous to assume otherwise.

Now I want to see you make a bitcoin transaction on paper.

So now, we're proposing that because things can fail, we need to have more robust systems to minimize the damage caused by the failure.

Oh, my. I think we just revolutionized the Engineering discipline.

Why don't we just make systems that don't fail?!

TexasRebel said:

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Now I want to see you make a bitcoin transaction on paper.

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Here's an acceptable bitcoin transaction on paper:

Quote:

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IOU 1200 satoshis

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Or what standards did you need to bring forward?

I'm not smart enough to come up with solutions that aren't yet needed. Sadly, I haven't really come up with any invention or innovation or company. But I'll do my best to cope with that fact. And, luckily, people much smarter than me have figured out much more complex problems.

TexasRebel said:

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So now, we're proposing that because things can fail, we need to have more robust systems to minimize the damage caused by the failure.

Oh, my. I think we just revolutionized the Engineering discipline.

Why don't we just make systems that don't fail?!

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Great, sounds like a plan. I'll support you in your quest.

But, in other news, someone developed Bitcoin, which is a more perfect money.

Algorithmic Epiphany said:

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TexasRebel said:

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Now I want to see you make a bitcoin transaction on paper.

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Here's an acceptable bitcoin transaction on paper:

Quote:

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IOU 1200 satoshis

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Or what standards did you need to bring forward?

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At what interest rate?
Is this collectible if you're no longer with us?
How do I know you even have 1200 satoshi?
What prevents me from copying this?

TexasRebel said:

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Algorithmic Epiphany said:

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TexasRebel said:

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Now I want to see you make a bitcoin transaction on paper.

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Here's an acceptable bitcoin transaction on paper:

Quote:

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IOU 1200 satoshis

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Or what standards did you need to bring forward?

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At what interest rate?
Is this collectible if you're no longer with us?
How do I know you even have 1200 satoshi?
What prevents me from copying this?

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Oh man I hope he comes up with THE solution to the 2064 problem of power outages on the Bitcoin network. If not, it'll prove that Bitcoin is on the path to irrelevance! [Biting fingernails nervously]

p-townag said:

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The fixed supply is one of, if not the most important attribute, so you can't dismiss that.

Layer 2s like Lightning Network, Liquid, etc, allow for faster settlement. You want proof of work to allow for secure, unhackable settlement at the base layer. So that's 30 minutes, who cares? Current traditional financial final settlement takes many days.

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You realize the lightning network is a failure due to lack of regulatory compliance and that Bitcoin cannot scale. It cannot handle enough volume to ever be widely used as currency. This limitation means it will forever be a collectible useful primarily for holding:

Bitcoin trading is now centralized to exchanges that have one big wallet and just change the number on your account and don't actually transact bitcoins until you withdraw. And the ETFs will largely be the same.

Transactions on the blockchain are a fraction of the off chain accounting being done to facilitate trading on exchanges. Bitcoin trading must be centralized in this way because of this limitation of the blockchain transaction volume.

As a regularly used currency Bitcoin has already failed. It just can't do it.

If you want a digital direct peer to peer currency you'll have to look to a different blockchain.

Bitcoins scarcity and durability has become its primary fundamental value proposition but nobody needs to own Bitcoin or use Bitcoin for anything. So I still don't see it as anything other than a mania of greater fools chasing a collectors item baseball cards.

When someone wants a blockchain for peer to peer transactions with no banks or 3rd party, they will use a different blockchain. That ease of use will create demand for it compared to other blockchains or government currencies.

This is why Tether has succeeded for example. It's actually a very useful liquidity tool (not withstanding the many criticisms of Tether).

Quote:

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Oh man I hope he comes up with THE solution to the 2064 problem of power outages on the Bitcoin network. If not, it'll prove that Bitcoin is on the path to irrelevance! [Biting fingernails nervously]

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the power went out for less than 1% of the world's population for two days 21 years ago. what a devastating gotcha.

complete waste of time to engage this dude, he is determined to be wrong. if i remember correctly a brother-in-law he hates was early on bitcoin, that's almost certainly why he insists on embarrassing himself like this.

What's driving Bitcoin demand higher?
More USD being printed?

Bitcoin advocates talk a lot about inflation and all currencies going to zero.

The inflation adjusted ATH high for Bitcoin is like 80k USD.

bmks270 said:

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What's driving Bitcoin demand higher?
More USD being printed?

Bitcoin advocates talk a lot about inflation and all currencies going to zero.

The inflation adjusted ATH high for Bitcoin is like 80k USD.

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please don't make me find the stats about how assets have performed since the money printing began again.

you don't understand why demand is increasing because you think "other cryptocurrencies" (you know which one especially, just say it and get it off your chest) can transact faster/cheaper etc and those should be more valuable as a result. you haven't figured out yet that the value of faster/cheaper is zero, which is why paypal, venmo, cashapp, and zelle all give you instant transactions literally for free. so there must be something else about it that the market values. i recommend trying to figure that out instead of wasting your days arguing with those of us who already did.

ac04 said:

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Quote:

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Oh man I hope he comes up with THE solution to the 2064 problem of power outages on the Bitcoin network. If not, it'll prove that Bitcoin is on the path to irrelevance! [Biting fingernails nervously]

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the power went out for less than 1% of the world's population for two days 21 years ago. what a devastating gotcha.

complete waste of time to engage this dude, he is determined to be wrong. if i remember correctly a brother-in-law he hates was early on bitcoin, that's almost certainly why he insists on embarrassing himself like this.

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And… you're wrong again.

Breaking news.....Yellen from the top rope!

Janet Yellen gives an important update regarding crypto pic.twitter.com/YZC0FNoKKI

— Tommy WorldPower (@TommyWorldPower) March 5, 2024

It's a free market. don't get lost in the minutiae.

TexAgs91 said:

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That's funny. But I'm pretty sure most BTC HODLers are smiling right now.

So yesterday Bitcoin toyed with a new all-time high and then the bottom fell out, Bitcoin dropping almost 10% in value. That brought out a slew of Chicken Little posters claiming that the 'sky was falling' and that Bitcoin would soon be worthless. Well, today as of 1pm, Bitcoin had regained almost all of its previous day's losses...but this thread has gone completely quiet as a result.

So much for the volatile history of Bitcoin. I suspect it will remain that way for a long time because of its very nature; i.e., because it is a monetary form that is independent of any government (or proprietary entity), which means a government cannot control it or siphon off a cut of the action. Interesting read below...hope it's not pay-walled.


Why Bitcoin Is Soaring, Again | The Epoch Times

Sorry, I've been busy folding copies of AEs 1200 satoshi IOU into blocks and stringing them together like Kix at Christmas.

I'm rich now.

TexasRebel said:

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Sorry, I've been busy folding copies of AEs 1200 satoshi IOU into blocks and stringing them together like Kix at Christmas.

I'm rich now.

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Oh you assumed I'd vouch my reputation on you paying me back 1200sats?

That's highly regarded.

This thread is awesome.

I don't know whether to laugh at or feel sorry for TexasRebal, nai06, and bmks. They are so entrenched in being right that they will cost their families millions or more in lost wealth. It's so clear to any of us that have taken the time to understand bitcoin and its future, but I guess you can't force people to understand when they are hellbent against doing so.

Oh well, not everybody can amass generational wealth.