That is a lot of information- I am maybe halfway through. So are you saying bitcoin will be useful for companies or for people to make cross-border transactions? If businesses, how would that look? Company A is buying product from company B.

Company A buys 5 bitcoins at a spot price of 50,000 USD, and sends those 5 bitcoins to company B to purchase a truck for 230,000 EUR.

Is this what you're talking about? Why is that better than Company A going to a money center bank and doing the same thing at a spot price of USD/EUR that is locked in, then send it for relatively cheap fees? Then you don't incur the risk of bitcoin volatility- which is covered by who? Company A or B? If you are company B you would theoretically want to immediately settle BTC into EUR? So why is that a better option than just accepting payment in EUR?

BTC settlements are more affordable and faster. You are converting from dollars to BTC to euros as soon as you receive it (something like 10 minutes instead of 3-5 days), so the current volatility of BTC isn't a factor as long as you are on top of it.


Obviously dollar to euro is a very common exchange, and they are very friendly countries. But there are all sorts of countries that are much more restrictive with currency exchange, and BTC kicks those type of transactions in the teeth. It's the same reasoning that distribution points re successful in business, you are cutting the amount of math done in half and you the buyer or seller only have to get familiar with one other currency, versus having to learn the intricacies of each individual countries banking system. By doing this, you are bypassing all the regulatory BS these countries put up against each other, which will absolutely turn over some apple carts. But the other side is that each individual country can no longer strong arm people into using it, so the advantage is that it's an even playing field.

If not BTC, I would support gold as an alternative, but gold has to be physically shipped. But it ends any gamesmanship of command economies propping up their currencies through force. I think it would ultimately lead to freer economies currencies like the US being used more, because the backhandedness of propped up currencies would be punished by people exchanging it more easily. Feel free to disagree with that all you want, that's just my WAG. I don't think BTC has to mean the downfall of the USD. I do think that it will punish the governments that fight it the hardest.

Definitely Not A Cop said:

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BTC settlements are more affordable and faster.

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I work for a money center bank, and it is extremely easy and affordable for our clients.. so maybe that is true if you bank with community or regional banks.. but probably not my bank.

Edited my comment a few times to clarify my thoughts right after you posted, feel free to respond.

Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Edited my comment a few times to clarify my thoughts right after you posted, feel free to respond.

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Yeah - the problem with thinking command economies will be brought to their knees by BTC is that the people of those countries still need to buy food at their stores.. meaning they will have to use legal tender. I am not sure how BTC would help there?

They would still need to, but say they want to vote with their feet. Right now the issue is that a lot of these types of governments essentially bankrupt people who chose to leave in pursuit of a better life. I know we have heard story after story about that from posters here whose ancestors emmigrated. That's much harder to do with something like BTC.

Sorry i fixed it, would you please remove the offending text from your quoted responses?

Aggies1322 said:

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Maybe I'm an idiot.. probably am. How is there viability in a "currency" that could lose 5% of its value in a day? If you are right and my grocery store begins accepting BTC - how do they reconcile the fact that their entire GPM (avg 1-3% for grocery stores) could be wiped out in a day? How then do they pay down their RLOCs or settle with vendors? There is no guarantee that the value of BTC comes back up before insolvency sets in.. or am I missing something? Are they expected to settle their BTC back into USD immediately? Is a 3rd party going to write derivatives to provide security? What is the plan?

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Maybe I'm an idiot. Did you flinch when we printed trillions of dollars on a whim? Or are you aware how much the dollar inflation has cost you?

Aggies1322 said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Aggies1322 said:

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Maybe I'm an idiot.. probably am. How is there viability in a "currency" that could lose 5% of its value in a day? If you are right and my grocery store begins accepting BTC - how do they reconcile the fact that their entire GPM (avg 1-3% for grocery stores) could be wiped out in a day? How then do they pay down their RLOCs or settle with vendors? There is no guarantee that the value of BTC comes back up before insolvency sets in.. or am I missing something? Are they expected to settle their BTC back into USD immediately? Is a 3rd party going to write derivatives to provide security? What is the plan?

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Exactly why I don't think we are using sats for groceries, at least for the next 10-20 years. Now as an intermediate to settle cross border transactions instantaneously? I think there is tremendous value.

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Can you explain what that would look like? I promise I'm not being an ass, I'm just not well versed enough in BTC to know what that would look like.

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Here's a papusa stand in El Salvador.

Our first NFC #BoltCard to Point of Sale #bitcoin Lightning⚡️ transaction on Isla La Pirraya, El Salvador 🇸🇻 pic.twitter.com/Q064jy2ytM

— ⚡️Nicki & James in El Salvador 🇸🇻 (@njelsalvador) June 6, 2023

The media used (phone/card/text/paper wallet/smoke signal, CB Radio) for the transaction is myriad.

Algorithmic Epiphany said:

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Aggies1322 said:

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Maybe I'm an idiot.. probably am. How is there viability in a "currency" that could lose 5% of its value in a day? If you are right and my grocery store begins accepting BTC - how do they reconcile the fact that their entire GPM (avg 1-3% for grocery stores) could be wiped out in a day? How then do they pay down their RLOCs or settle with vendors? There is no guarantee that the value of BTC comes back up before insolvency sets in.. or am I missing something? Are they expected to settle their BTC back into USD immediately? Is a 3rd party going to write derivatives to provide security? What is the plan?

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Maybe I'm an idiot. Did you flinch when we printed trillions of dollars on a whim? Or are you aware how much the dollar inflation has cost you?

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I did, in fact, have an issue with printing trillions of dollars (as well as quantitative easing, and almost anything the fed does). I'm not sure how that is relevant here. You also didn't really respond to any of the points I raised.

Algorithmic Epiphany said:

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Aggies1322 said:

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Definitely Not A Cop said:

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Aggies1322 said:

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Maybe I'm an idiot.. probably am. How is there viability in a "currency" that could lose 5% of its value in a day? If you are right and my grocery store begins accepting BTC - how do they reconcile the fact that their entire GPM (avg 1-3% for grocery stores) could be wiped out in a day? How then do they pay down their RLOCs or settle with vendors? There is no guarantee that the value of BTC comes back up before insolvency sets in.. or am I missing something? Are they expected to settle their BTC back into USD immediately? Is a 3rd party going to write derivatives to provide security? What is the plan?

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Exactly why I don't think we are using sats for groceries, at least for the next 10-20 years. Now as an intermediate to settle cross border transactions instantaneously? I think there is tremendous value.

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Can you explain what that would look like? I promise I'm not being an ass, I'm just not well versed enough in BTC to know what that would look like.

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Here's a papusa stand in El Salvador.

Our first NFC #BoltCard to Point of Sale #bitcoin Lightning⚡️ transaction on Isla La Pirraya, El Salvador 🇸🇻 pic.twitter.com/Q064jy2ytM

— ⚡️Nicki & James in El Salvador 🇸🇻 (@njelsalvador) June 6, 2023

The media used (phone/card/text/paper wallet/smoke signal, CB Radio) for the transaction is myriad.

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This article actually mentions the couple in the tweet… doesn't sound like there is really much acceptance in El Salvador.

https://www.reuters.com/technology/short-cash-el-salvador-doubles-down-bitcoin-dream-2024-02-02/

My bad, I thought you were just asking how transactions take place.

After reading the rest of the thread, this might be more comprehensive and address some details.

Jack Maller's presentation to the IMF using chips and raisins:

Some of y'all get way to caught up in the "currency"
Nomenclature. It's irrelevant. What matters is having a secure permissionless sound robust accountable and limited asset in which to store your wealth in for the future. The reason BTC fundamentally fails at being a day to day currency is because it's too valuable to be used on groceries. Or worse any consumer products.

Fiat is failing. It's a broken system. You can say US dollar is backed by our military power etc. but we will face the exact same fate as every other fiat… which is eventually the soldiers stop working for your fiat.

Has anybody seen the US military recruiting numbers? It's literally happening. Soldiers aren't working for tbe failed fiat that has been printed in the trillions. Foreign nations are moving away from the dollar too. Now they have tons of their own problems but El Salvador, interesting name, is going to be the Saving nation to the worlds 300 TRILLION in debt.

The baby boom generation may continue to grind it out for dollars. But the following generations won't.

And despite All of that. People spend their time pounding their chests on Texags about their ignorant opinions on btc.

Do your offspring a favor. SWALLOW YOUR PRIDE. Buy them some btc.

Oh and by the way. You eventually will. It may only be fractions upon fractions but every retirement fund will be holding btc. So might as well frontrun yourself.

beanie babies, (tulip) bulbs and bitcoin.

Have fun, but don't get left holding the bag.

Your grandchildren will appreciate your viewpoint I'm sure.

Yukon Cornelius said:

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Your grandchildren will appreciate your viewpoint I'm sure.

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my grandchildren will be historically deconstructing the biggest, stupid market bubble since the 1650's

Edit: And my granddaughter is already nine years old

This computer scientist professor articulates Bitcoin's short comings well.
- functionally worse than already existing transfer methods (not a better solution for transfers).
- only people doing transactions are criminals
- inefficient use of energy
- requires finding new adopters for price appreciation
- lack of security
- "stable coin" risks (tether)
- failure of adoption in El Salvador and their centralized app that doesn't actually transfer Bitcoin.

Weaver had a very short record from 2018 lambasting "cryptocurrencies" with loads of ad hominem and strawman attacks and minimal substance.

What's he doing here in 2024?

At this point there is 15 years of track record and endless resources available that explain how and why bitcoin is monetizing if someone wants to understand.

Intelligence is error correction. Doubling down on being wrong is double-digit IQ behavior. Done trying to help these people. Will check back in on this thread when we break $100k to laugh at the cope.

“Mr. 100”, who buys 100 #Bitcoin several times a day, bought 4 x 100 $BTC today 👇 That’s nearly half of the 900 daily supply.

The ETFs will likely buy a few 1000 today as well 🤷‍♂️ Wall Street likes the coin 👌 pic.twitter.com/CWQrgjlb9Z

— HODL15Capital 🇺🇸 (@HODL15Capital) February 27, 2024

Either bezos or a nation. Naysayers betting against kind of adoption? Crazy

For the doubters I'll leave you with this thought. Gold is valuable not because of any utility. But because it was scarce and required energy to get it.

If you were able to divert energy away from food production you were rich. One of the early things that consumed that overture of energy was mining or searching for gold.

NOTHING HAS CHANGED.

Gold has a lot of utility.

Doesn't corrode
Conducts electricity
Extremely malleable

Being shiny is just a bonus.

It wasn't originally used for electricity is the point. Early adoption of gold was because it's scarce and requires energy to get it. Bring shiny is a bonus.

What is shiny about btc? It's halvings. It generates price movements which catches eyeballs. Nothing has changed.

There are a lot of similarities to gold.

Do most Bitcoin holders also have an equal weight of gold in their portfolio since it has many of the same "store of value" properties? (According to many bitcoin advocates)

Gold is fungible. Cash is fungible. Bitcoin isn't.

Because Bitcoin is not fungible, combined with know your customer regulations, Bitcoin is not going to help you hide your assets from the government when they decide it's a threat to their own currency and/or power.

Look at what Canada did. https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/02/16/canada-sanctions-34-crypto-wallets-tied-to-trucker-freedom-convoy/

Bitcoin has no utility that creates a predictable price floor.

That's why a lot of critics avoid it.

Zero is quite predictable.

Beanie Babies and tulip bulbs.

aggiehawg said:

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Beanie Babies and tulip bulbs.

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What were the timeframes in which these two items saw price appreciation bubbles, i.e., how long did the bubbles last from run up to bursting? People who lump BTC into the same class as stuffed animals and flower bulbs are really missing what is happening in the world today.

Beanie babies bubble lasted 6 years, the tulip bubble lasted 3.

People don't know what a woman is, deny the earth is an orb, and think bitcoin is valuable.

So much ignorance on display. Many such cases.

Just so your self the favor. Hell do it for your offspring and watch this video. If you still come away with the same perspective then fine. But st least listen. Don't be like liberal echo chambers on the west coast.

You're a very intelligent person. On this matter you are WOEFULLY ignorant and uniformed. I'd encourage you to spend some time and understand what is happening.

In 5-10 years every single money manager is going to recommend bitcoin you realize right? And I literally mean every single one of them.

Do they all recommend gold too? And I mean every single one of them.

This is how it'll go down. Bitcoin will be the best performing asset for 2 decades running in 5 years. The biggest firms and funds will be recommending at least 1% exposure. Money managers follow their lead because they want to reduce their own liability. Money managers just follow what other money managers do. Very little innovation within that community. Because if things go bad they just say welp everyone was recommending it too etc etc.

So in 6-10 years to NOT be recommending it would put you on the outside of the rest of the money managers. And no one is going to bet against BOTH the best performing asset and the rest of the financial world.

Just get off zero. Even if it's 0.1 btc. Which is more than every millionaire in the world can own if equally split.

So run the numbers. If 1% of invested dollars in money managers ends up in btc how much does btc appreciate? Then compare that to the us federal reserve note. Which at BEST case scenario loses 2% value every single year.