Bitcoin on the path to irrelevance?

111,758 Views | 1822 Replies | Last: 3 days ago by Yukon Cornelius
Adverse Event
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Gold/PM's carry value historically because governments settled transactions in gold.

Pm's need an end buyer for the value to exist, otherwise it's just trading shiny, malleable rocks, which might as well be shells at that point.

The gold demand for electronics is microscopic to the supply. Majority of gold is paper, but the real gold is stored unmoving in vaults. We can only ESTIMATE the total supply of accessible gold, so how can you have any accurate value associated with it, unless an authority tells you what they'll pay for it.
Adverse Event
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Yeah thats not how it works.

Maybe you should try using it.
Adverse Event
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It does offer votes.
ac04
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The Banned said:

ac04 said:

Quote:

So you would left to barter your bitcoin for whatever non currency items you can get. But why would someone accept the trade if they can not launder that illicit trade back into currency for licit purchases? If the government operating CBDCs ever decided that crypto coins cannot be converted, it would require a full parallel economy for bitcoin to have any value.
your question is why would someone accept an alternative medium of exchange that is outside the CBDC control/surveillance scheme? i can think of about a million reasons.

this whole conversation is moot anyway, the government can't/won't ban bitcoin unless all world governments agree to do it at the same time due to prisoner's dilemma. considering governments within each country perpetually struggle to agree with each other on even the most menial and insignificant issues, i find this scenario extremely unrealistic.


And here you see why the world economic forum and the UN are so important. UN to apply political pressure and the WEF to train young leaders to think the "right way".

Human nature being what it is means it is difficult to get everyone on the same page. But enough fear (Covid for example) can get everyone to adopt many of the same policies almost overnight. If we had a similar crisis in banking, we could see rapid adoption of CBDCs. Bitcoin banning would be downstream of that a ways and it would be specifically banned because of the black market it is used in. And as I said before, they won't have to criminalize it. The simply have to program the money digits in their computers to read as an error if someone attempted such a transaction.
except not everyone adopted all the same COVID policies, they varied significantly from country to country and even state to state. and people practiced geographic arbitrage when they did not agree with their government's policies - see the mass movement of people from blue to red states in response to COVID policies. and if there are varying policies regarding bitcoin, then capital will flow away from countires that try to restrict it and into countries that do not.

getting all world governments to agree on anything is complete fantasy and not worth discussing.
one safe place
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ac04 said:

one safe place said:

ac04 said:

one safe place said:

ac04 said:

bmks270 said:

Yes.

Bitcoin value is based on group psychology.

Fear.

1. FOMO
2. Fear that government backed currency will be devalued.

On point 2, we have record inflation and yet Bitcoin is at 2 year lows. Bitcoin as an inflation hedge has been proven wrong.

That leaves point number 1 being the main driver of the price.

And Bitcoin has run out of new adopters. When crypto has Super Bowl adds running then crypto and Bitcoin has achieved its maximum reach. Demand generated by finding new adopters has reached its end.
bitcoin is a hedge against monetary debasement (what inflation actually is), not consumer price increases.

there are something like 100 million people who own bitcoin. the idea that adoption has peaked with a global TAM is laughable.
Then most of them have what, like .000017 bitcoin?
there are about 19.2 million bitcoin in existence. might want to check that math again.
Yet not everyone owns the exact amount of bitcoin. Your math would be not quite 1/5th of a bitcoin ON AVERAGE. Quite a few would own much less than that. See how math works?
wow, are you a mathematician or something? extremely impressive. please tell me more about means and medians and then hit me with whatever amazing talking point you're working towards.
How much bitcoin do you own?
ac04
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how many dollars do you own?
one safe place
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ac04 said:

how many dollars do you own?
Dollars, stocks, real estate, businesses, right at $2.2 million.

How much bitcoin do you own was the question.
aTmAg
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AG
Adverse Event said:

It does offer votes.
No it doesn't. Not in the way I'm talking about (and that matters). For example, I can't vote on Bitcoin actions, policies, board members, or anything like that.
CDUB98
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AG
one safe place said:

ac04 said:

how many dollars do you own?
Dollars, stocks, real estate, businesses, right at $2.2 million.

How much bitcoin do you own was the question.


I'd say this is a Taylor Hamm sock, but ol' "six figs" would never have that much.

Man, it's been a while since I've seen a wallet measuring poster here.
ac04
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one safe place said:

ac04 said:

how many dollars do you own?
Dollars, stocks, real estate, businesses, right at $2.2 million.

How much bitcoin do you own was the question.
wow, i'm very proud for you. but how much bitcoin (or dollars) i own is not something i would ever tell you or anyone else as that's an idiotic thing to share publicly. i also don't see how that is relevant to anything in this thread. are you going to make a point or just keep floundering around wasting our time?
Adverse Event
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I see you still haven't learned anything about the blocksize wars, don't know what UASF is, nor how BIP protocols get implemented.

Ngmi
The Banned
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Adverse Event said:

Gold/PM's carry value historically because governments settled transactions in gold.

Pm's need an end buyer for the value to exist, otherwise it's just trading shiny, malleable rocks, which might as well be shells at that point.

The gold demand for electronics is microscopic to the supply. Majority of gold is paper, but the real gold is stored unmoving in vaults. We can only ESTIMATE the total supply of accessible gold, so how can you have any accurate value associated with it, unless an authority tells you what they'll pay for it.


You're focusing too much on the total value of gold versus what I'm trying to emphasize: gold can be liquidated into local currency. As can the other things listed. What that value may be we do not know, but it can be physically transferred to another owner for CBDCs because the new owner knows that he can convert it down the road into an amount of CBDCs. May be nothing more than jewelry, but it can be sold. May lose a ton of value, but he can sell it. Unless for some reason the government programmed CBDCs to be unusable for gold.

I'm trying to use your original hypothetical where the government does in fact program the CBDCs as a de facto social credit score and can program it to determine what you can and can't purchase. In that scenario that you posited, bitcoin could easily become absolutely worthless because the recipient of your bitcoin will be incapable of converting that into CBDCs. If it can not be converted to CBDCs, the bitcoin has to stay in the black market. Current criminals do not sell drugs/guns/women for cash in order to buy more illegal things (other than more illegal products to sell). They launder their profits so they can buy legal things that they want. Big houses, fancy cars, etc. They can't buy those things in drugs and women and guns. They have to convert it to cash. In the future, it would need to convert to CBDCs

In your scenario, should the government chose to program CBDCs to be unusable on crypto coins, if they sell those drugs for bitcoins, they can not go buy those nice legal things because the bitcoin is not capable of being laundered. That bitcoin has to create value in its own marketplace. It HAS to become its own currency that will help the user buy things that would normally be purchased in CBDCs. In order for that black market to work, it would have to become a full parallel economy. I need to be able to get a home loan from an institution that operates in bitcoin. I need to go grocery shopping at a store that accepts it. I need to find a utility company who will let me pay my bills with it. All technically possible. But again, in the hypothetical that YOU proposed, we're living under an authoritarian government hellbent on control. Do you think they would allow major companies to participate in that parallel economy? How would such a parallel economy survive? I could realistically see a Bitcoin market for food stuffs and things of that nature. But a Bitcoin market to buy a car? To fill up at the station down the road? To buy a house? To pay your water and electric bill? It would end up being homeless outlaws trading with each other because the tender with which they trade would never be able to re-enter the legal market place.

None of this may come to pass. The CBDCs may be just like the effectively cashless society we have today. Bitcoin may still have its uses. I'm not trying to poke holes in Bitcoin altogether. I'm merely showing that in the authoritarian future you posit, Bitcoin can become completely and utterly worthless towards helping you live a normal life with the push of a button. "Error: transaction not allowed". Now what?
ChiefKiefton
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Gold and silver will always be superior to bitcoin or any crypto currency. Bitcoin was probably created by our government to get us complacent for when they roll out their own digital currency and destroy us. If anyone here thinks bitcoin is actually safe from the government, then you are a fool and shouldn't be taken seriously. They can do whatever they want. Nothing is truly safe. However, gold and silver are the safest bets.
CDUB98
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AG
ChiefKiefton said:

Crypto was probably created by our government


Ummmm
ChiefKiefton
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CDUB98 said:

ChiefKiefton said:

Crypto was probably created by our government


Ummmm
Meant to say Bitcoin.
The Banned
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ac04 said:

The Banned said:

ac04 said:

Quote:

So you would left to barter your bitcoin for whatever non currency items you can get. But why would someone accept the trade if they can not launder that illicit trade back into currency for licit purchases? If the government operating CBDCs ever decided that crypto coins cannot be converted, it would require a full parallel economy for bitcoin to have any value.
your question is why would someone accept an alternative medium of exchange that is outside the CBDC control/surveillance scheme? i can think of about a million reasons.

this whole conversation is moot anyway, the government can't/won't ban bitcoin unless all world governments agree to do it at the same time due to prisoner's dilemma. considering governments within each country perpetually struggle to agree with each other on even the most menial and insignificant issues, i find this scenario extremely unrealistic.


And here you see why the world economic forum and the UN are so important. UN to apply political pressure and the WEF to train young leaders to think the "right way".

Human nature being what it is means it is difficult to get everyone on the same page. But enough fear (Covid for example) can get everyone to adopt many of the same policies almost overnight. If we had a similar crisis in banking, we could see rapid adoption of CBDCs. Bitcoin banning would be downstream of that a ways and it would be specifically banned because of the black market it is used in. And as I said before, they won't have to criminalize it. The simply have to program the money digits in their computers to read as an error if someone attempted such a transaction.
except not everyone adopted all the same COVID policies, they varied significantly from country to country and even state to state. and people practiced geographic arbitrage when they did not agree with their government's policies - see the mass movement of people from blue to red states in response to COVID policies. and if there are varying policies regarding bitcoin, then capital will flow away from countires that try to restrict it and into countries that do not.

getting all world governments to agree on anything is complete fantasy and not worth discussing.


It's fantasy and not worth discussing at the moment. But no doubt we've moved closer to it and the path we're on could easily lead to it. Programmable CBDCs, as Adverse said, would lead to massive compliance like we've never seen. It would become very easy for the more powerful governments to flex their muscles. Random small country won't comply? We'll program it so that no CBDCs can go into any account linked to that country or it's citizens.

I personally believe people will rebel before we ever got there. There are also a large number of surveillance upgrades needed to pull it off. But when you look at the success China has had with it, you can't say it's impossible.

ETA: there were variations of the COVID lockdowns, but the premise was the same in the vast, vast majority of countries. We saw masks, arrests, etc around the world. The human condition will always lead to various struggles with implementation but when you see the trend we've been on, that was the most cohesive world wide movements we've ever seen.
CDUB98
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AG
ChiefKiefton said:

CDUB98 said:

ChiefKiefton said:

Crypto was probably created by our government


Ummmm
Meant to say Bitcoin.


I repeat, ummmm
Adverse Event
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Why is the assumption YOU HAVE TO CONVERT BACK TO [local currency].

That's a poor assumption.
CDUB98
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AG
Adverse Event said:

Why is the assumption YOU HAVE TO CONVERT BACK TO [local currency].

That's a poor assumption.


Then tell, us, what is BTC's value denomination based on, if not local currency?
aTmAg
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AG
Adverse Event said:

I see you still haven't learned anything about the blocksize wars, don't know what UASF is, nor how BIP protocols get implemented.

Ngmi
You clearly missed the "that matters" part.


Bitcoin users don't give a crap about block sizes or protocols or any of that crap. That would be like voting stock holders caring about the color of the HQ carpet.
ChiefKiefton
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CDUB98 said:

ChiefKiefton said:

CDUB98 said:

ChiefKiefton said:

Crypto was probably created by our government


Ummmm
Meant to say Bitcoin.


I repeat, ummmm
Not sure why you are saying um. Are you saying it isn't possible that our government's doing some weird stuff behind the scenes to get us more likely to adopt their new digital dollar plan with little to no opposition?
CDUB98
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AG
ChiefKiefton said:

CDUB98 said:

ChiefKiefton said:

CDUB98 said:

ChiefKiefton said:

Crypto was probably created by our government


Ummmm
Meant to say Bitcoin.


I repeat, ummmm
Not sure why you are saying um. Are you saying it isn't possible that our government's doing some weird stuff behind the scenes to get us more likely to adopt their new digital dollar plan with little to no opposition?


I'm saying that is not what happened. Go read about the history of blockchain and the inception of BTC.
one safe place
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ac04 said:

one safe place said:

ac04 said:

how many dollars do you own?
Dollars, stocks, real estate, businesses, right at $2.2 million.

How much bitcoin do you own was the question.
wow, i'm very proud for you. but how much bitcoin (or dollars) i own is not something i would ever tell you or anyone else as that's an idiotic thing to share publicly. i also don't see how that is relevant to anything in this thread. are you going to make a point or just keep floundering around wasting our time?
It is relevant when a few of you tell everyone else how only those with bitcoin are going to survive financial armageddon, time and time again. And if you hold 1/4 or 1/2 of a bitcoin, then it is much ado about next to nothing. I asked that very question, about bitcoin holdings, and was told most own less than one. I would figure those that are calling for the meltdown might have hundreds of thousands of dollars in bitcoin, but I suspect they don't.

It is as if some are seeking affirmation that they have done the right thing buy having a few thousand dollars invested in bitcoin and wanting to be reminded of it. Strange cult.
ac04
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wow, that nonsense was even more disappointing that i anticipated.
CDUB98
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AG
1) There is only one BTC "true believer" around here. We all know who he is.

2) ac04 is one of the smartest people on TexAgs. I guarantee you he does not have all his money wrapped up in BTC, but utilizes it as a tool within a larger portfolio. You might want to listen to what he says.
Adverse Event
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aTmAg said:

Adverse Event said:

I see you still haven't learned anything about the blocksize wars, don't know what UASF is, nor how BIP protocols get implemented.

Ngmi
You clearly missed the "that matters" part.


Bitcoin users don't give a crap about block sizes or protocols or any of that crap. That would be like voting stock holders caring about the color of the HQ carpet.


Yeah it clearly wasn't a civil war of sorts resulting in multiple forks and such. Definitely no one cared.

Adverse Event
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CDUB98 said:

Adverse Event said:

Why is the assumption YOU HAVE TO CONVERT BACK TO [local currency].

That's a poor assumption.


Then tell, us, what is BTC's value denomination based on, if not local currency?


Just because it's priced in All types of local currencies does not mean it's value is related to them.
Burdizzo
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AG
Adverse Event said:

Why is the assumption YOU HAVE TO CONVERT BACK TO [local currency].

That's a poor assumption.



Because so far no one has told me how many AR-15 lowers I can buy with one Bitcoin. Every Bitcoin conversation on Texags I have ever read includes the Bitcoin exchange rate in terms of other government-secured currencies and no other currency. Hell, you people won't even tell me how to exchange my Bitcoin for Ethereum, but you're trying real hard to scare me into using it by telling me not to trust the government I already don't trust.
CDUB98
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AG
Adverse Event said:

CDUB98 said:

Adverse Event said:

Why is the assumption YOU HAVE TO CONVERT BACK TO [local currency].

That's a poor assumption.


Then tell, us, what is BTC's value denomination based on, if not local currency?


Just because it's priced in All types of local currencies does not mean it's value is related to them.


Shanked punt.

I clearly asked you to state what BTC's value is based on, if not local currency. You merely restated my question.
Burdizzo
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AG
How many tulip bulbs can I buy with one Bitcoin?
agdad4x
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crypto currency is monopoly money
CDUB98
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AG
Burdizzo said:

How many tulip bulbs can I buy with one Bitcoin?


tree-fitty
The Banned
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Adverse Event said:

Why is the assumption YOU HAVE TO CONVERT BACK TO [local currency].

That's a poor assumption.


Let's think of it this way: you undergo civil forfeiture right now. All your cash and bank acts are gone. You do, however, have your Bitcoin. Right now, how would you expect to continue to pay your bills and fill your tank without converting some of those coins into cash? Would electric company take it? Would your mortgage company? If you wanted to buy a house, could you? If the owner of the house took your Bitcoin, would they still want to if they couldn't convert it to cash when needed?

In the event you became persona non grata and we're locked out of your CBDCs AND the government made transfer of Bitcoin to CBDCs illegal, you're just as screwed as the rest of us. All modern illicit sales are done in order to gain access to licit tender. What point would there be to make an illicit sale to you in a tender that can not ever be converted into licit tender? What would the seller gain? There would need to be a robust economy in which the Bitcoin they received in exchange for their good or service could buy them the things they want to legally own. You could viably do this for small items, but you'd never be able to have a normal life of any kind without the CBDCs. You can't buy a house. Can't buy a car. Can't pay your phone bill. Can't fill up at the gas station. None of it. You would need that full parallel economy or you're a homeless outlaw trading bitcoins for food with the other homeless outlaws.

If we ever get to the point where Bitcoin was needed for transactions because we were locked out of our CBDCs, we didn't revolt soon enough.
MR Gadsden
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The Banned said:

Adverse Event said:

Why is the assumption YOU HAVE TO CONVERT BACK TO [local currency].

That's a poor assumption.


There would need to be a robust economy in which the Bitcoin they received in exchange for their good or service could buy them the things they want to legally own.
This is what people\companies are building now. I went to the Texas Blockchain summit in Austin a few weeks ago. Yes, BTC price is down but there is a robust infrastructure being built out that most people are ignorant exists. And for every one of these solutions that is being built on the back of BTC\Lightning it provides value to the system.

I would sell you a car in BTC today, AE might have another item or service that he would gladly take BTC for. I think if you did some digging you might be surprised how robust the BTC economy already is.
Adverse Event
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The Banned said:

Adverse Event said:

Why is the assumption YOU HAVE TO CONVERT BACK TO [local currency].

That's a poor assumption.


Let's think of it this way: you undergo civil forfeiture right now. All your cash and bank acts are gone. You do, however, have your Bitcoin. Right now, how would you expect to continue to pay your bills and fill your tank without converting some of those coins into cash? Would electric company take it? Would your mortgage company? If you wanted to buy a house, could you? If the owner of the house took your Bitcoin, would they still want to if they couldn't convert it to cash when needed?

In the event you became persona non grata and we're locked out of your CBDCs AND the government made transfer of Bitcoin to CBDCs illegal, you're just as screwed as the rest of us. All modern illicit sales are done in order to gain access to licit tender. What point would there be to make an illicit sale to you in a tender that can not ever be converted into licit tender? What would the seller gain? There would need to be a robust economy in which the Bitcoin they received in exchange for their good or service could buy them the things they want to legally own. You could viably do this for small items, but you'd never be able to have a normal life of any kind without the CBDCs. You can't buy a house. Can't buy a car. Can't pay your phone bill. Can't fill up at the gas station. None of it. You would need that full parallel economy or you're a homeless outlaw trading bitcoins for food with the other homeless outlaws.

If we ever get to the point where Bitcoin was needed for transactions because we were locked out of our CBDCs, we didn't revolt soon enough.


Soviet Russia banned the dollar.

The dollar value in Russia versus the local currency skyrocketed, and was the preferred money for bribes.

Why would this be any different? We already have crypto-bribes happening in this country.
 
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