Your second sentence is a lie and didn't happen.

Ags4DaWin said:

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read my post above.

he did not know it was the cops who knocked.

back down. you are so wrong its not even funny. admit ur wrong and walk away.

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Well, we don't know what he knew, but I never said he did know.

I was asked what I would do if some knocked on my door and said they were cops late at night. My response was based on that question.

96ags said:

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Your second sentence is a lie and didn't happen.

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He clearly walks out of the door towards the cops and shouts "what".

SirLurksALot said:

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96ags said:

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Your second sentence is a lie and didn't happen.

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He clearly walks out of the door towards the cops and shouts "what".

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Yet was shot in the back on his knees. So "walking" out a door is not grounds for execution.

96ags said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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96ags said:

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Your second sentence is a lie and didn't happen.

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He clearly walks out of the door towards the cops and shouts "what".

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Yet was shot in the back on his knees. So "walking" out a door is not grounds for execution.

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Never said it was. My main argument on this thread is that based on the totality of the circumstances it's going to be hard for the state to prove the actions of the cops weren't objectively reasonable.

Vader Was Framed said:

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Quote:

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Police responded to an apartment complex on Desert Foothills Drive in Ahwatukhee around 11 p.m. on May 21. The department had received two phone calls earlier that night about an argument between a woman and a man, later identified as Whitaker, at a nearby residence.

"I can tell that they're just at each other's throats down there," the caller said.

When a second call came through alleging the dispute had turned physical, Thompson said Phoenix police upgraded the call to an emergency response. In the audio from the call, however, the 911 caller sounded unsure if the fight had escalated into violence.

"It could be physical," the caller said. "I could say yeah, does that make anybody hurry up or get over here any faster?" The caller said they heard doors slamming and "all kinds of banging."

Police knocked on the apartment door and yelled "Phoenix police!" one time, according to body-camera videos from two officers who responded that night. The two officers stood on either side of the doorway.

According to the videos, Whitaker opened the door, shirtless, with a gun in his hand and a flashlight shining in his face. He stepped out of the apartment toward one officer.

Police shot him in a matter of seconds, according to the video.

One officer yelled, "Whoa" on seeing Whitaker's gun, and followed by yelling, "Hands! Hands! Hands!"

Whitaker quickly put his gun behind his back, then backed into the doorway and lowered to the ground, raising his left hand. His other hand was not pictured on camera. The officer standing behind Whitaker fired three shots and struck Whitaker in the back.

Whitaker fell forward onto the ground with his arms outstretched. Both his hands appeared to be empty in the video, and he later died.

Thompson said the police officer believed his colleague was in imminent danger when he fired his gun. Whitaker's weapon was recovered in the doorway of the apartment and had not been fired.

The officer who shot Whitaker had three years of experience in the Phoenix Police Department, Thompson said. The incident is the subject of an internal and criminal investigation, both of which will be reviewed by the Maricopa County Attorney's Office.

After the shooting, family members of Whitaker said he would not have answered the door with a gun if he knew police were knocking.

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...

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix-breaking/2020/07/15/phoenix-police-shot-ryan-whitaker-back-body-camera-videos-show/5445779002/

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At least the officer got to go home to his family. That's all that really matters.

And I'd contend you'll have a hard time maintaining the idea that shooting a person in the back on their knees is somehow reasonable.

SirLurksALot said:

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96ags said:

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I've been around a ton of cops when I had a gun in my hand and I have never been shot.

I don't hang out with nutjobs though, so that could be a difference.

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Were those cops responding to a domestic violence call?

Did you walk towards them while shouting with the gun in your hand.

I'd bet your circumstances were a lot different.

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He was already backing up and bending down when the shots rang out. Peace officers have a tough job and put their lives on the line everyday. As I understand, domestic violence calls are among the worst to respond to, so that must be going trough their minds. But here, in this case, the guy was not walking towards them when the shots rang out. It may be eventually ruled a clean shoot, but it he looks to me the officer was a little late on his reactions, and it cost an innocent man his life.

And just b/c someone yells they are a police officer doesn't mean they are. Who knows what kind of neighborhood the apartment complex is in, but he had no proof they were officers until he opened the door, then he appeared to react to that and cooperate but was shot before he could finish cooperating.

Tough situation.

Quote:

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Never said it was. My main argument on this thread is that based on the totality of the circumstances it's going to be hard for the state to prove the actions of the cops weren't objectively reasonable.

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Not so sure about that. And it depends on what the potential charges are. This incident warrants watching further developments, in my view but at the moment seems to be a bad shoot to me.

96ags said:

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And I'd contend you'll have a hard time maintaining the idea that shooting a person in the back on their knees is somehow reasonable.

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Surprisingly, even people on their knees can still pull a trigger.

The cop that shot couldn't see the gun once the guy goes down. I believe in one other articles he said that he was in fear that his partner would be shot by the subject. The court is going to look at the entire interaction to determine if that fear was reasonable. The final spot the subject ended in is only a part of the story.

I'd rather 50 guilty people walk free than 1 innocent person die. Cops should have no more protections than a citizen.

Toptierag2018 said:

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I'd rather 50 guilty people walk free than 1 innocent person die. Cops should have no more protections than a citizen.

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I'd argue less because they are provided training and equipment by the tax payer.

As a professional, the expectation should be higher.

I don't think the officer should be charged but I do think there should be civil action, either against the officer or that police department.

combat wombat said:

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So the guy upstairs called 911 TWICE for a noise complaint? He didn't bother going down and asking his neighbor to keep it down? Now his neighbor is dead.

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Guess he won't have any more noise to bother him.

MaxPower said:

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I don't think the officer should be charged but I do think there should be civil action, either against the officer or that police department.

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At the absolute very least he should be fired and not be able to find work in law enforcement again but he will probably not even lose his job.

LOL

"The cops acted reasonably?!"

WOW </Torbush.gif>

Romello said:

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Sux to die like that but something about being an inconsiderate arsehole and Karma.

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ironic post is ironic

If you are going to walk out holding a gun DOWN at your side, you better be damn sure what's outside.

Not excusing cops behavior, but if it was anyone with a gun he might have been shot. If you have a gun drawn you better be ready to shoot.

Jimmy McNulty said:

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Why in the world would they shoot him in this scenario?...if he's going to the ground with hand in the air?

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Agree completely.

TXK said:

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OldArmyBrent said:

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If you want a poster child for better training, this is it, not a guy who died of a fentanyl overdose. Why is this horrible shoot not even brought up in the media? Absolute horse*****

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It's literally in the media. That's how you know about it. If you're angry about it, do something. Say something.

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I'd rather do something that has an impact. You guys strain gnats and swallow camels. Police killing blacks is so far down on the radar of problems in the black community, it's laughable. But over and over and over again, you riot and destroy your own cities over it.

Spotted Ag said:

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combat wombat said:

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So the guy upstairs called 911 TWICE for a noise complaint? He didn't bother going down and asking his neighbor to keep it down? Now his neighbor is dead.

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**** that neighbor. That guy can DIAF. He is as responsible for that guys death as the dumbass cop that shot him.

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To be fair we have no idea what the backstory is here. Maybe this has been an ongoing issue that he did try to solve.

The cop needs to be prosecuted.

This is why I posted many times on threads at the beginning of all this. knee jerk reactionary stuff that's currently taking place, that we dont have a systemic racism issue anywhere and especially not within LE. What we do have is a systemic militaration issue with LE and that's what needs to be addressed. It can easily be fixed from within if LE will start policing their own and stop protecting the ones that are out of control and/or overly aggressive in projecting their authority etc... It starts with good cops standing up against those that act like a bunch a jack booted thugs.

You know, the biggest problems with this is entire argument is 'was it justified'. If that's justified we need to change the standards if what is and is not ok. Because in no sane world is that OK.

SirLurksALot said:

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96ags said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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96ags said:

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Your second sentence is a lie and didn't happen.

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He clearly walks out of the door towards the cops and shouts "what".

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Yet was shot in the back on his knees. So "walking" out a door is not grounds for execution.

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Never said it was. My main argument on this thread is that based on the totality of the circumstances it's going to be hard for the state to prove the actions of the cops weren't objectively reasonable.

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So knocking on a door at 11pm, stating the word Police one time, hiding so the person cannot ID you themselves, blinding him with a flashlight, and shooting him in the back while he is in his knees is reasonable?

I don't live in the city, but I don't think I would answer the door at 11pm anyway especiallyif my wife and kids were all home. Cop or not. **** off. You can come back at 8am when I open. I dont really care what you need. If you want to talk to me about something my number is public and you are welcome to call me.

Sine poena nulla lex.

Can any of y'all (maybe not you aggiehawg) saying the cop is guilty of murder, please give me the case law that will determine if the cop was legal?

Or the standards by which he will be judged?

agsalaska said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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96ags said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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96ags said:

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Your second sentence is a lie and didn't happen.

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He clearly walks out of the door towards the cops and shouts "what".

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Yet was shot in the back on his knees. So "walking" out a door is not grounds for execution.

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Never said it was. My main argument on this thread is that based on the totality of the circumstances it's going to be hard for the state to prove the actions of the cops weren't objectively reasonable.

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So knocking on a door at 11pm, stating the word Police one time, hiding so the person cannot ID you themselves, blinding him with a flashlight, and shooting him in the back while he is in his knees is reasonable?

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Well, let's break it down.

Was it reasonable to knock on the door? Yes, they were responding to a call of domestic violence. They cops had a legal right to be were they were.

Was it reasonable to announce police only once? Approximately 10 seconds go by from the first time police is announced until the subject opens the door. Seems once is a reasonable amount for that scenario. If more time had past I would expect the cops to knock and announce again.

Is it reasonable to "hide". Yes, this is standard police training across the country. One of the most emphasized points during training is to not stand in front of the doorway. Even if you object to this training it is unreasonable to expect the officers to disregard that training. Especially when responding to a domestic violence call.

Was it reasonable to shine the flashlight? Yes. It's dark and the officers are responding to the one of their most dangerous calls. The light briefly goes into the subject's face but is quickly brought down to the chest area. There does not appear to be an intentional effort to blind the subject.

Now the big question was it reasonable to shoot? To answer this you have to look at it from the perspective of the officer that shoot. He is responding to a domestic violence call. They arrive an announced they were police. The officer at this point has no reason to believe the subject didn't hear the announcement. Appropriately 10 seconds later a subject quickly opens the door, steps forward with a hand gun, and shouts "what". This is certainly an aggressive manner of opening the door. I believe it is reasonable for cops at this point to perceive the subject as a threat. The cops draw their weapons and the subject goes into a crouched position keeping one hand up, but the gun hand remains down. The officer that shot is no longer able to see the gun. The officer said that he feared his parter was going to be shot. The entire incident from when the subject opens the door to when shoots are fired takes place in approximately 3 seconds. Considering the totality of the circumstances I do not believe the officer's fear that his partner would be shoot is unreasonable.

agsalaska said:

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I don't live in the city, but I don't think I would answer the door at 11pm anyway especiallyif my wife and kids were all home. Cop or not. **** off. You can come back at 8am when I open. I dont really care what you need. If you want to talk to me about something my number is public and you are welcome to call me.

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For domestic violence calls this is not an option. The cops won't leave until it is determined that no one has been injured.

Ok. And il save quoting it, but do you see how unreasonable all of that is when you put it together in real life and how the actions of the police all put together create an unwinnable situation for a guy that did nothing wrong?

SirLurksALot said:

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agsalaska said:

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I don't live in the city, but I don't think I would answer the door at 11pm anyway especiallyif my wife and kids were all home. Cop or not. **** off. You can come back at 8am when I open. I dont really care what you need. If you want to talk to me about something my number is public and you are welcome to call me.

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For domestic violence calls this is not an option. The cops won't leave until it is determined that no one has been injured.

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Great. Then they can call me and talk about it. They have my number. Or they can sit there until 8am.

It's up to them.

agsalaska said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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agsalaska said:

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I don't live in the city, but I don't think I would answer the door at 11pm anyway especiallyif my wife and kids were all home. Cop or not. **** off. You can come back at 8am when I open. I dont really care what you need. If you want to talk to me about something my number is public and you are welcome to call me.

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For domestic violence calls this is not an option. The cops won't leave until it is determined that no one has been injured.

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Great. Then they can call me and talk about it. They have my number. Or they can sit there until 8am.

It's up to them.

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In a domestic situation where the cops have reason to believe violence has occurred, then they'll likely just open the door for you.

agsalaska said:

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Ok. And il save quoting it, but do you see how unreasonable all of that is when you put it together in real life and how the actions of the police all put together create an unwinnable situation for a guy that did nothing wrong?

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Are you kidding?!

He bolted out of the door, with his assault pistol just pumping out rounds from his 100 round "clip", all while shouting "**** the police!".



Oh, wait....

agsalaska said:

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Ok. And il save quoting it, but do you see how unreasonable all of that is when you put it together in real life and how the actions of the police all put together create an unwinnable situation for a guy that did nothing wrong?

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Nothing wrong? The way the guy answered the door was absolutely wrong. It stupid to answer the door like that if you don't know who is outside. Even you suspect bad actors are outside it's still dumb to put yourself at a disadvantage like that.

He didn't ask who was there. He didn't ask for identification. He created the problem with his actions. The cops actions up to that point were absolutely normal.

From the perspective of the officer that shot I don't believe his actions were unreasonable.

SirLurksALot said:

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agsalaska said:

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Ok. And il save quoting it, but do you see how unreasonable all of that is when you put it together in real life and how the actions of the police all put together create an unwinnable situation for a guy that did nothing wrong?

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Nothing wrong? The way the guy answered the door was absolutely wrong. It stupid to answer the door like that if you don't know who is outside. Even you suspect bad actors are outside it's still dumb to put yourself at a disadvantage like that.

He didn't ask who was there. He didn't ask for identification. He created the problem with his actions. The cops actions up to that point were absolutely normal.

From the perspective of the officer that shot I don't believe his actions were unreasonable.

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Citizens shouldn't have to behave perfectly to not get shot by police. Especially when they have broken no laws.