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It was always a domestic disturbance.

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Or it was always a video game.

I walked by a house one time and heard excited screaming and yelling. A few seconds later the husband came out, smiling and serene. I asked what the trouble was, he replied it was his wife reacting to a fight scene on her soap opera.

BigRobSA said:

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Win At Life said:

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They announced they were police through the door, but there's a good chance he didn't hear that or believe it. But with that uncertainty you do not step out toward the police who are virtually within arms reach holding a gun in your hand. It looks like he put it back down on his right hip and the cop on the right side couldn't tell if he was pointing it at his partner or not. Would be a horrible thing to watch your partner, who trusts you, to get murdered while you're standing there in a position to keep that from happening and did nothing. Bad deal all around, but I think it's highly unlikely the cops will get much legal trouble over this (and probably rightly so).

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Oh lawd...

He took one step out so he could see who the **** was knocking on his door at 11pm at night. The cops had their portable suns shining in his face for some reason. Sorry, door gets knocked on, for no reason, at 11pm, I'm grabbing a gun, too. Especially in apartments.

As soon as he reailzed it was the police, he went to get on the ground and dropped his weapon and was (literally) holding up his hand in the "don't murder me, please" position.

Absolutely nothing in either of those POV videos shows anythiing that a non-trained person should fear, let alone a (supposedly) trained officer.

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You are just factually incorrect. Re-watch the video again noting both cops' body cameras. He did NOT drop his gun. He held his gun AND disguised it as best he could from BOTH cops by kneeling down (which was probably a good thing), but he positioned his gun behind his right hip in an attempt to hide it from both cops (probably a bad thing). The cop on the right who shot, will surely say he thought the guy was pointing the gun at his partner from his right hip with likely intent to shoot, and he will get virtually no punishment for this.

SirLurksALot said:

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Sims said:

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TxAg2012WC said:

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Spotted Ag said:

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combat wombat said:

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So the guy upstairs called 911 TWICE for a noise complaint? He didn't bother going down and asking his neighbor to keep it down? Now his neighbor is dead.

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**** that neighbor. That guy can DIAF. He is as responsible for that guys death as the dumbass cop that shot him.

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If you watch the video, they say that the call was for a DV in progress.

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Which was a lie because he was upset they hadn't showed up sooner from his first call.

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Nope. Here's a quote from the first call.

"I can tell that they're just at each other's throats down there," the caller said.

It was always a domestic disturbance.

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None of which matters or excuses the actions of the officers once they arrived. You're picking on a tiny detail here that isn't actually relevant. The officer doesn't have free reign to shoot because someone was reportedly violent in a complaint.

That detail puts him on high alert, but isn't an excuse.

Artorias said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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Artorias said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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Artorias said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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The fact the he answered the door so quickly with the gun probably means he already had the gun out during the domestic disturbance.

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Objection, complete and total speculation.

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Just like the speculation posted earlier that he was only walking towards the cops to get a better look at them?

Of course it's speculation, this thread is mostly speculation.

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He didn't "walk towards" the cops. He took one step out his door.

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Which is not how one normally answers a door.

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So he deserved to be shot? What is your point here?

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I'm tired of fearing for my life when I see a cop

SirLurksALot said:

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Sims said:

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TxAg2012WC said:

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Spotted Ag said:

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combat wombat said:

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So the guy upstairs called 911 TWICE for a noise complaint? He didn't bother going down and asking his neighbor to keep it down? Now his neighbor is dead.

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**** that neighbor. That guy can DIAF. He is as responsible for that guys death as the dumbass cop that shot him.

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If you watch the video, they say that the call was for a DV in progress.

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Which was a lie because he was upset they hadn't showed up sooner from his first call.

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Nope. Here's a quote from the first call.

"I can tell that they're just at each other's throats down there," the caller said.

It was always a domestic disturbance.

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Could be, there's a lot we don't know. Specifically since the first 911 call has been so redacted that we hear the one phrase supporting the police's position.

The whole call will surely be illuminating as well as the history between the neighbor and deceased.

Win At Life said:

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BigRobSA said:

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Win At Life said:

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They announced they were police through the door, but there's a good chance he didn't hear that or believe it. But with that uncertainty you do not step out toward the police who are virtually within arms reach holding a gun in your hand. It looks like he put it back down on his right hip and the cop on the right side couldn't tell if he was pointing it at his partner or not. Would be a horrible thing to watch your partner, who trusts you, to get murdered while you're standing there in a position to keep that from happening and did nothing. Bad deal all around, but I think it's highly unlikely the cops will get much legal trouble over this (and probably rightly so).

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Oh lawd...

He took one step out so he could see who the **** was knocking on his door at 11pm at night. The cops had their portable suns shining in his face for some reason. Sorry, door gets knocked on, for no reason, at 11pm, I'm grabbing a gun, too. Especially in apartments.

As soon as he reailzed it was the police, he went to get on the ground and dropped his weapon and was (literally) holding up his hand in the "don't murder me, please" position.

Absolutely nothing in either of those POV videos shows anythiing that a non-trained person should fear, let alone a (supposedly) trained officer.

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You are just factually incorrect. Re-watch the video again noting both cops' body cameras. He did NOT drop his gun. He held his gun AND disguised it as best he could from BOTH cops by kneeling down (which was probably a good thing), but he positioned his gun behind his right hip in an attempt to hide it from both cops (probably a bad thing). The cop on the right who shot, will surely say he thought the guy was pointing the gun at his partner from his right hip with likely intent to shoot, and he will get virtually no punishment for this.

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When he fell, his hands were empty and the gun was on the floor in the doorway/area behind him.

Yes, he dropped the gun as he was kneeling down in his "Please don't murder me!" stance.

Artorias said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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Artorias said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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Artorias said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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The fact the he answered the door so quickly with the gun probably means he already had the gun out during the domestic disturbance.

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Objection, complete and total speculation.

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Just like the speculation posted earlier that he was only walking towards the cops to get a better look at them?

Of course it's speculation, this thread is mostly speculation.

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He didn't "walk towards" the cops. He took one step out his door.

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Which is not how one normally answers a door.

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So he deserved to be shot? What is your point here?

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Did I say that?

Use of force is based on reasonableness. The fact that he advanced towards the cops with a weapon is a factor.

SirLurksALot said:

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hurricanejake02 said:

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Artorias said:

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They said "Phoenix police" once, outside through a closed door. There is no guarantee he heard them say that.

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...from outside, through a closed door, in response to a noise complaint. No justification for believing that announcement was heard by anyone inside.

Then hide so you can't be identified before the door is opened.

Then blind the man answering the door with a flashlight, delaying his ability to identify you as police.

Then fail to repeat the announcement that you are police. Their commands are "Whoah, hands, put your hands..." BOOM. They didn't even issue a command that could have been followed before the shots are fired.

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Again it wasn't a noise complaint. It was a domestic disturbance and the complaints thought violence was involved.

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The complaint wasn't from someone involved in the complaint.

If it was the GF that had called, that is a different scenario than if a neighbor calls because he hears some yelling.

In one scenario you have a potential victim calling. In the other you have someone who may or may not be trustworthy relaying something they think they heard.

With the fact that people are getting SWATTED nowadays the police should be more cautious than ever when taking those kinds of calls.

also, I have personal experience as a kid witnessing police response to domestic disturbance calls. my dad was a violent guy at home.

Sometimes a neighbor called. sometimes my mom. They NEVER answered the door like that. Not once.

hurricanejake02 said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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Sims said:

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TxAg2012WC said:

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Spotted Ag said:

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combat wombat said:

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So the guy upstairs called 911 TWICE for a noise complaint? He didn't bother going down and asking his neighbor to keep it down? Now his neighbor is dead.

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**** that neighbor. That guy can DIAF. He is as responsible for that guys death as the dumbass cop that shot him.

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If you watch the video, they say that the call was for a DV in progress.

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Which was a lie because he was upset they hadn't showed up sooner from his first call.

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Nope. Here's a quote from the first call.

"I can tell that they're just at each other's throats down there," the caller said.

It was always a domestic disturbance.

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None of which matters or excuses the actions of the officers once they arrived. You're picking on a tiny detail here that isn't actually relevant. The officer doesn't have free reign to shoot because someone was reportedly violent in a complaint.

That detail puts him on high alert, but isn't an excuse.

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That's not why he shot. Don't be obtuse. He shot because a man answered the door aggressively and advanced towards them with a weapon.

The only question is, was the shooting Objectively reasonable? From the video alone I don't believe that question can be accurately answered at this point.

Ags4DaWin said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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hurricanejake02 said:

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Artorias said:

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They said "Phoenix police" once, outside through a closed door. There is no guarantee he heard them say that.

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...from outside, through a closed door, in response to a noise complaint. No justification for believing that announcement was heard by anyone inside.

Then hide so you can't be identified before the door is opened.

Then blind the man answering the door with a flashlight, delaying his ability to identify you as police.

Then fail to repeat the announcement that you are police. Their commands are "Whoah, hands, put your hands..." BOOM. They didn't even issue a command that could have been followed before the shots are fired.

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Again it wasn't a noise complaint. It was a domestic disturbance and the complaints thought violence was involved.

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The complaint wasn't from someone involved in the complaint.

If it was the GF that had called, that is a different scenario than if a neighbor calls because he hears some yelling.

In one scenario you have a potential victim calling. In the other you have someone who may or may not be trustworthy relaying something they think they heard.

With the fact that people are getting SWATTED nowadays the police should be more cautious than ever when taking those kinds of calls.

also, I have personal experience as a kid witnessing police response to domestic disturbance calls. my dad was a violent guy at home.

Sometimes a neighbor called. sometimes my mom. They NEVER answered the door like that. Not once.

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A very high percentage of domestic disturbances get called in by third parties. Frequently victims are either unable or unwilling to call themselves.

Answered the door how? Everything was normal until the guy walked outside with a gun. If you dad did that the cops response would've been different.

the officers actions prior to the interaction were a direct cause of the manner in which the man opened his door.

their failure to give him time to comply with their request is on them.

their failure to properly identify is on them.

their failure to recognize that the man had already stepped back and was in the process of surrendering when they shot is on them.

They did nothing right here. the shooter needs to be charged with manslaughter and the other officer fired immediately.

Too bad the police unions will prevent that from happening.

Quote:

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That's not why he shot. Don't be obtuse. He shot because a man answered the door aggressively and advanced towards them with a weapon.

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He took one step, figured out they were cops, then bent down to put the gun down.

SirLurksALot said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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hurricanejake02 said:

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Artorias said:

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They said "Phoenix police" once, outside through a closed door. There is no guarantee he heard them say that.

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...from outside, through a closed door, in response to a noise complaint. No justification for believing that announcement was heard by anyone inside.

Then hide so you can't be identified before the door is opened.

Then blind the man answering the door with a flashlight, delaying his ability to identify you as police.

Then fail to repeat the announcement that you are police. Their commands are "Whoah, hands, put your hands..." BOOM. They didn't even issue a command that could have been followed before the shots are fired.

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Again it wasn't a noise complaint. It was a domestic disturbance and the complaints thought violence was involved.

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The complaint wasn't from someone involved in the complaint.

If it was the GF that had called, that is a different scenario than if a neighbor calls because he hears some yelling.

In one scenario you have a potential victim calling. In the other you have someone who may or may not be trustworthy relaying something they think they heard.

With the fact that people are getting SWATTED nowadays the police should be more cautious than ever when taking those kinds of calls.

also, I have personal experience as a kid witnessing police response to domestic disturbance calls. my dad was a violent guy at home.

Sometimes a neighbor called. sometimes my mom. They NEVER answered the door like that. Not once.

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A very high percentage of domestic disturbances get called in by third parties. Frequently victims are either unable or unwilling to call themselves.

Answered the door how? Everything was normal until the guy walked outside with a gun. If you dad did that the cops response would've been different.

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wrong on the everything was normal bit. they answered the call in a manner in which the cops should respond when they have evidence someone is armed and dangerous. they had no evidence or even an accusation someone armed and dangerous was behind the door.

they purposefully kept out of line of sight so they could not be identified. a police officer is responsible for properly identifying themselves at the onset of an interaction. Not only that but they blinded the man, preventing him from being able to visually identify the officer when he opened the door.

These guys did not do anything right.

and who says my dad never had a gun when they got the call? you assume too much.

Quote:

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You are just factually incorrect. Re-watch the video again noting both cops' body cameras. He did NOT drop his gun. He held his gun AND disguised it as best he could from BOTH cops by kneeling down (which was probably a good thing), but he positioned his gun behind his right hip in an attempt to hide it from both cops (probably a bad thing). The cop on the right who shot, will surely say he thought the guy was pointing the gun at his partner from his right hip with likely intent to shoot, and he will get virtually no punishment for this.

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That's a horrible take.

Yes, when he first stepped out, he was hiding the gun behind his hip. As soon as he realized they were cops, he bent down, and the gun is no longer in view of either camera.

My guess is that he was putting the gun on the floor. You don't know what happened to the gun, and neither d I.

That he was going to his knees and turning his back on officers was a pretty damn good sign he was not going to shoot, unless he was going to do an Annie Oakley and shoot over his shoulder using a mirror while kneeling down,

BigRobSA said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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hurricanejake02 said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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Sims said:

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TxAg2012WC said:

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Spotted Ag said:

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combat wombat said:

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So the guy upstairs called 911 TWICE for a noise complaint? He didn't bother going down and asking his neighbor to keep it down? Now his neighbor is dead.

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**** that neighbor. That guy can DIAF. He is as responsible for that guys death as the dumbass cop that shot him.

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If you watch the video, they say that the call was for a DV in progress.

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Which was a lie because he was upset they hadn't showed up sooner from his first call.

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Nope. Here's a quote from the first call.

"I can tell that they're just at each other's throats down there," the caller said.

It was always a domestic disturbance.

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None of which matters or excuses the actions of the officers once they arrived. You're picking on a tiny detail here that isn't actually relevant. The officer doesn't have free reign to shoot because someone was reportedly violent in a complaint.

That detail puts him on high alert, but isn't an excuse.

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That's not why he shot. Don't be obtuse. He shot because a man answered the door aggressively and advanced towards them with a weapon.

The only question is, was the shooting Objectively reasonable? From the video alone I don't believe that question can be accurately answered at this point.

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He "advanced" backwards and was getting on the ground to not be shot.

WTF are you even talking about?

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You can't eliminate the first part of the interaction. The totality of the circumstances are considered.

My personal opinion is the cop who shot panicked and made reaction in a split second. I'm not arguing that the cops were right, but the legal standard doesn't require the cops to be right or to even make the best decision. They are only required to make objectivity reasonable. Based on the available facts that question can't be answered at this point, but I'd lean towards the answer being yes.

The officer on the right committed homicide. Grossly negligent in the very least. And do they train to shine the very powerful, $100 police light into a civilian's face? If the very least it makes the civilian feel threatened, and unable to identify the guy in uniform. And don't get me wrong - I'm 100% pro police. But when police screw up, the officer must be forced to take responsibility. This was a bad shoot, and claiming that the guy "pulled a gun" is complete BS. He has a right to pull a gun to defend his family and property. If you don't want to have someone pull a gun, hold your damn badge where the civilian can see it.

I know one thing - in today's environment, with so many police haters turning the police overly jumpy, if someone knocks on my door at night, I'm phoning the police. If dispatch tells me that it's officers at my door, I'll answer it with my hands clearly visible.

The fact that the gun was recovered inside the door, pointing into the apartment, does not bode well for anyone's guesses about it being pointed at his partner.

Ags4DaWin said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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SirLurksALot said:

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hurricanejake02 said:

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Artorias said:

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They said "Phoenix police" once, outside through a closed door. There is no guarantee he heard them say that.

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...from outside, through a closed door, in response to a noise complaint. No justification for believing that announcement was heard by anyone inside.

Then hide so you can't be identified before the door is opened.

Then blind the man answering the door with a flashlight, delaying his ability to identify you as police.

Then fail to repeat the announcement that you are police. Their commands are "Whoah, hands, put your hands..." BOOM. They didn't even issue a command that could have been followed before the shots are fired.

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Again it wasn't a noise complaint. It was a domestic disturbance and the complaints thought violence was involved.

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The complaint wasn't from someone involved in the complaint.

If it was the GF that had called, that is a different scenario than if a neighbor calls because he hears some yelling.

In one scenario you have a potential victim calling. In the other you have someone who may or may not be trustworthy relaying something they think they heard.

With the fact that people are getting SWATTED nowadays the police should be more cautious than ever when taking those kinds of calls.

also, I have personal experience as a kid witnessing police response to domestic disturbance calls. my dad was a violent guy at home.

Sometimes a neighbor called. sometimes my mom. They NEVER answered the door like that. Not once.

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A very high percentage of domestic disturbances get called in by third parties. Frequently victims are either unable or unwilling to call themselves.

Answered the door how? Everything was normal until the guy walked outside with a gun. If you dad did that the cops response would've been different.

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wrong on the everything was normal bit. they answered the call in a manner in which the cops should respond when they have evidence someone is armed and dangerous. they had no evidence or even an accusation someone armed and dangerous was behind the door.

they purposefully kept out of line of sight so they could not be identified. a police officer is responsible for properly identifying themselves at the onset of an interaction.

These guys did not.

and who says my dad never had a gun when they got the call? you assume too much.

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You are simply wrong.

Cops are trained to always answer the door out of sight for every call. The door way is referred to as the fatal funnel and it is emphasized during training to stay out of it.

This is especially true of domestic disturbances as cops have been shot walking up to the door in these situations multiple times.

The did identify themselves. The said "Phoenix police" that alone satisfies the legal requirement.

You realize that the way you worded that response, it sounds like you're checking off the boxes to be able to shoot, right?

... I mean, we said it, so we can shoot now, right?

That was murder. No way they can spin that shooting as self defense.

hurricanejake02 said:

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You realize that the way you worded that response, it sounds like you're checking off the boxes to be able to shoot, right?

... I mean, we said it, so we can shoot now, right?

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This. Who cares if anyone could hear it.

Quote:

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The did identify themselves. The said "Phoenix police" that alone satisfies the legal requirement.

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Legal, sure.

Is it right, no.

Someone has a TV on too loud, yelling at a video game, someone says something, then knocks on the door...90% chance he didn't hear the ID being called out.

hurricanejake02 said:

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You realize that the way you worded that response, it sounds like you're checking off the boxes to be able to shoot, right?

... I mean, we said it, so we can shoot now, right?

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I'm only providing the legal standards that justify the use of force.

They identified themselves is a reasonable manner.

Is this when we White people are supposed to protest, riot and loot? In memory of George Floyd, I watch on tv as "protestors" stole big screen tv's, robbed pharmacies of OxyContin, shot cops, smashed windows, set up a CHOP Zone and basically destroyed parts of major US cities....... all for George.

We are olds and don't know the rules anymore.

Quote:

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The door way is referred to as the fatal funnel and it is emphasized during training to stay out of it.

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Looks to be true in this case as well.

The door is known as the fatal funnel because people don't enter or exit their house through the wall or skylight.

I mean, this kind of training gets in peoples heads and makes them react in unnecessary ways. Of course most deaths occur in a doorway.

Would it satisfy the legal requirement if you were on the jury? (Reasonable under the circumstances?) He didn't exactly shout "Phoenix police" although he did say it more loudly than a normal voice. But that was 11 seconds before the guy came to the door. It was a noise complaint! The guy likely didn't hear them and the officer never made a real attempt to make himself heard. I can't believe they were trained to be so lackadaisical.

Shagga said:

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Would it satisfy the legal requirement if you were on the jury. He didn't exactly shout "Phoenix police" although he did say it more loudly than a normal voice. But that was 11 seconds before the guy came to the door. It was a noise complaint! The guy likely didn't hear them and the officer never made a real attempt to make himself heard. I can't believe they were trained to be so lackadaisical.

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Again it was a domestic disturbance which the complaint believed was violent.

Sims said:

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Quote:

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The door way is referred to as the fatal funnel and it is emphasized during training to stay out of it.

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Looks to be true in this case as well.

The door is known as the fatal funnel because people don't enter or exit their house through the wall or skylight.

I mean, this kind of training gets in peoples heads and makes them react in unnecessary ways. Of course most deaths occur in a doorway.

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So, it would make sense to stay out of the doorway then.

combat wombat said:

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So the guy upstairs called 911 TWICE for a noise complaint? He didn't bother going down and asking his neighbor to keep it down? Now his neighbor is dead.

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The neighbor called because he thought there was a domestic disturbance. Neighbor called twice, and said that he thuoght the couple was fighting.
Which might explain why the cops were on edge.

Still no need to shoot, he was obeying orders

Quote:

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Again it was a domestic disturbance which the complaint believed was violent

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Again, it was an upset neighbor, with no knowledge, who called it in that way.

With the emergence of "SWAT-ing", cops are fools to believe what people call in.

People call 911 because McDonalds ran out of chicken nuggets. I don't think the cops charged in and shot the fry cook.

WHITE PEOPLE ARE LITERALLY BEING MURDERED FOR OPENING THEIR DOOR!




That's how this works right?

That's it. Where's the nearest foot locker?