Joe Boudain said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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jrico2727 said:

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This

Masculinity is defined as toxic in our times, however as society becomes more and more effeminate we are seeing a complete collapse of morals, the family, and eventually western society.

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Exactly

Tell people you like to watch porn and smoke weed and they'll think you're normal. Tell them you like to lift weights and go to daily mass and they'll think you're a freak.

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How do you feel about people that watch porn and smoke weed. Do you consider them normal or freaks?

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I consider them both if that makes sense. They're the norm as everyone else is doing it, they're freaks because it's completely disjointed from reality and a healthy lifestyle.

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It seems to me that you are frustrated that some people consider your lifestyle freakish? But, you also find many of their lifestyle choices to be freakish? Am I correct so far? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

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I don't know about frustrated, more confused at how things have changed so quickly. I'm a youngish guy, still a handful of years from 40, and I feel like an old man yelling at kids to get off his lawn.

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I get that. I am 40 and often find myself yelling at both the kids and the old people. Yelling at the kids to do some listening to their elders. And yelling at the elders to recognize that they don't get to tell the kids what to value or what to believe. Nor do they get to blame the kids for their shortcomings.

Each generation gets to contribute to this society and to the world. The kids on the lawn - its not their fault that the media is ****ed up. Its not their fault that the political world is ****ed up. Its not their fault that politicians are bought and that the rich and powerful buy 'laws' and favors at the expensive of others. Its not their fault that they are inheriting a country that is still healing over centuries of slavery and bigotry and hate. It is the fault of the previous generations. The next generation may be wrong about a great many things, but can you really blame them for not wanting to be like the previous generations?

25 years ago my dad thought my music was stupid and that us kids wore stupid clothes. 50 years ago his dad thought his music was trash, his hair was too long, and that he didn't work hard enough. I'm sorry you think porn and weed makes someone a freak. And I'm sorry some people think you are a freak for working out and going to church. I'm an atheist in the Bible belt. . . . get over it.

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It's not the people who think I'm a freak perse, but the growing acceptance of the idea that smoking weed and watching porn are normal, and that going to mass and lifting weights is abnormal that is the issue.

I'll use another example to show what I mean. I've seen a bunch of articles aghast at the fact that Phillip Rivers has 9 kids with the same woman, who is his wife. Almost as if he's some sort of Handmaid's Tale weirdo, some have gone so far as to call what he has an "alternative lifestyle".

Antonio Rogers Cromartie has 14 kids with 8 different women, there are less exaggerated cases of the same sprinkled all over Hollywood and the sports world. It doesn't really raise an eyebrow.

Why?

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Because you choose to consume certain forms of media that highlight specific reactions to drive engagement and assure your tribal support of their beliefs.

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I don't know what you're talking about, and apart from the alphabet soup of buzzwords, I don't believe you do either.

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Philip Rivers is not a serious or big news story on the left. No one outside of a select group gives a damn about Antonio Cromartie. You're using this as an example because it fits your prejudices, not because it's actually representative of something in the larger culture. It's an example of selection bias.

Joe Boudain said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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Physically weak.

As I said, there is no shame in being born weak. But to acknowledge it and then willfully not do anything to improve it is effeminate. The body prefers to be at rest and seek pleasure. You must subdue it with the will and forge it. Likewise with the spirit.

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"Effeminate." Why is the feminine a slur to you?

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Men aren't supposed to be effeminate. There's a reason why "emasculated" has the connotation it does.

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And of course this begs the question as to what "effeminate" means. Going back to my earlier posts, toxic masculinity deems a lot of things as effeminate when they really are not. For example, showing emotions other than dominance or anger, being interested in art, not caring about sports, going to the doctor when you feel sick, seeing a therapist. I could go on.

Joe Boudain said:

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larry culpepper said:

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For what it's worth, I've never met (or even heard of) a single person who thinks someone is weird or a "freak" for working out. Physical health is nearly universally accepted as a value.

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apparently you haven't been paying attention the last few years, where every major magazine that used to focus on beauty is convincing us that gigantically obese women are "healthy" or that transexual models are just as beautiful as actual women.

Some aren't even trying, I remember seeing a story about a hairy pitted obese transexual model on a billboard in New York.

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I think the fat acceptance movement is terrible but I see it as different. They arent saying exercise and working out is bad, but are trying to make being curvy more socially acceptable.

On one hand I understand it since all these models have 11/'10 bodies and make even healthy people insecure. But I strongly disagree with encouraging people to maintain unhealthy eating and exercise habits.

Joe Boudain said:

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larry culpepper said:

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For what it's worth, I've never met (or even heard of) a single person who thinks someone is weird or a "freak" for working out. Physical health is nearly universally accepted as a value.

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apparently you haven't been paying attention the last few years, where every major magazine that used to focus on beauty is convincing us that gigantically obese women are "healthy" or that transexual models are just as beautiful as actual women.

Some aren't even trying, I remember seeing a story about a hairy pitted obese transexual model on a billboard in New York.

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There are plenty of heavy people who are healthy and plenty of skinny people who exercise who will drop dead tomorrow. There's a lot of people who look good who have eating disorders and have horrid health because they confuse looks with strength or fitness. You're promoting a cultural position, not one based on actual physical health.

Sapper Redux said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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jrico2727 said:

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This

Masculinity is defined as toxic in our times, however as society becomes more and more effeminate we are seeing a complete collapse of morals, the family, and eventually western society.

---

Exactly

Tell people you like to watch porn and smoke weed and they'll think you're normal. Tell them you like to lift weights and go to daily mass and they'll think you're a freak.

---

How do you feel about people that watch porn and smoke weed. Do you consider them normal or freaks?

---

I consider them both if that makes sense. They're the norm as everyone else is doing it, they're freaks because it's completely disjointed from reality and a healthy lifestyle.

---

It seems to me that you are frustrated that some people consider your lifestyle freakish? But, you also find many of their lifestyle choices to be freakish? Am I correct so far? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

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I don't know about frustrated, more confused at how things have changed so quickly. I'm a youngish guy, still a handful of years from 40, and I feel like an old man yelling at kids to get off his lawn.

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I get that. I am 40 and often find myself yelling at both the kids and the old people. Yelling at the kids to do some listening to their elders. And yelling at the elders to recognize that they don't get to tell the kids what to value or what to believe. Nor do they get to blame the kids for their shortcomings.

Each generation gets to contribute to this society and to the world. The kids on the lawn - its not their fault that the media is ****ed up. Its not their fault that the political world is ****ed up. Its not their fault that politicians are bought and that the rich and powerful buy 'laws' and favors at the expensive of others. Its not their fault that they are inheriting a country that is still healing over centuries of slavery and bigotry and hate. It is the fault of the previous generations. The next generation may be wrong about a great many things, but can you really blame them for not wanting to be like the previous generations?

25 years ago my dad thought my music was stupid and that us kids wore stupid clothes. 50 years ago his dad thought his music was trash, his hair was too long, and that he didn't work hard enough. I'm sorry you think porn and weed makes someone a freak. And I'm sorry some people think you are a freak for working out and going to church. I'm an atheist in the Bible belt. . . . get over it.

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It's not the people who think I'm a freak perse, but the growing acceptance of the idea that smoking weed and watching porn are normal, and that going to mass and lifting weights is abnormal that is the issue.

I'll use another example to show what I mean. I've seen a bunch of articles aghast at the fact that Phillip Rivers has 9 kids with the same woman, who is his wife. Almost as if he's some sort of Handmaid's Tale weirdo, some have gone so far as to call what he has an "alternative lifestyle".

Antonio Rogers Cromartie has 14 kids with 8 different women, there are less exaggerated cases of the same sprinkled all over Hollywood and the sports world. It doesn't really raise an eyebrow.

Why?

---

Because you choose to consume certain forms of media that highlight specific reactions to drive engagement and assure your tribal support of their beliefs.

---

I don't know what you're talking about, and apart from the alphabet soup of buzzwords, I don't believe you do either.

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Philip Rivers is not a serious or big news story on the left. No one outside of a select group gives a damn about Antonio Cromartie. You're using this as an example because it fits your prejudices, not because it's actually representative of something in the larger culture. It's an example of selection bias.

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It is absolutely representative of something in the larger culture, it's mainstreaming the transactional nature of sex and trying to make traditional families look like something to avoid.

This happens all over the media, you only have to pay attention to what the makeups of current commercials are to look at what sort of agenda is being pushed on society at large.

RebelE Infantry said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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Physically weak.

As I said, there is no shame in being born weak. But to acknowledge it and then willfully not do anything to improve it is effeminate. The body prefers to be at rest and seek pleasure. You must subdue it with the will and forge it. Likewise with the spirit.

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"Effeminate." Why is the feminine a slur to you?

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Tell me you don't know the meaning of "effeminate" without telling me you don't know the meaning of "effeminate."

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Break the word down, champ.

Rocag said:

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This thread might be one of the kookiest examples of right-wing Christianity that I've ever seen. I freely admit as a fairly liberal atheist I just do not get how anyone could find this convincing and I likely never will. It's fascinating how the seemingly disparate lines of thought intermesh and produce something completely different. I'm still trying to figure out what the dominate portion of the belief system is. Is it the religious, the political, or the obsession with their version of "masculinity"?

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None of this is new. The Muscular Christianity that Teddy Roosevelt subscribed to was an even bigger push towards masculinity than anything I have spoken about here. Are you saying he was a kook?

"Clowns to the left of me Jokers to the right"..

PacifistAg said:

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Rocag said:

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This thread might be one of the kookiest examples of right-wing Christianity that I've ever seen. I freely admit as a fairly liberal atheist I just do not get how anyone could find this convincing and I likely never will. It's fascinating how the seemingly disparate lines of thought intermesh and produce something completely different. I'm still trying to figure out what the dominate portion of the belief system is. Is it the religious, the political, or the obsession with their version of "masculinity"?

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It's amazing how vanity is a virtue to some.

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How is this vanity? I workout for my own personal health in a gym late at night where barely anyone is there and I do not use social media at all. I workout so my kids have an example of physical fitness to look up to and so that I am not a broken man like so many are nowadays by the time I am in my 50s. I also legitimately enjoy weight lifting as a stress reliever. Do I like looking good for my wife? Of course, why would I want to look like a fat slob? No one finds that attractive.

So how is any of this vanity? How is pushing yourself towards self improvement vanity especially when it is proven to help you in all facets of your life and continuously mentioned as a positive by Biblical writers?

BAP Enthusiast said:

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Rocag said:

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This thread might be one of the kookiest examples of right-wing Christianity that I've ever seen. I freely admit as a fairly liberal atheist I just do not get how anyone could find this convincing and I likely never will. It's fascinating how the seemingly disparate lines of thought intermesh and produce something completely different. I'm still trying to figure out what the dominate portion of the belief system is. Is it the religious, the political, or the obsession with their version of "masculinity"?

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None of this is new. Muscular Christianity that Teddy Roosevelt subscribed to was an even push towards masculinity than anything I have spoken about here. Are you saying he was a kook?

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Historically it is new. Christian philosophy promoted denying the body rather than emphasizing physical strength. That was typically associated with the pagan Greeks and Romans. In fact, focus on physical fitness didn't begin until the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, which explicitly focused on old pagan philosophies and societies. Linking physical fitness to Christianity was a late 19th-century phenomenon and one that fell in and out of favor. At best it's been peripheral in the majority of modern Christian philosophies.

RebelE Infantry said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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Physically weak.

As I said, there is no shame in being born weak. But to acknowledge it and then willfully not do anything to improve it is effeminate. The body prefers to be at rest and seek pleasure. You must subdue it with the will and forge it. Likewise with the spirit.

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"Effeminate." Why is the feminine a slur to you?

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Tell me you don't know the meaning of "effeminate" without telling me you don't know the meaning of "effeminate."

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Break the word down, champ.

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As defined by St Thomas Aquinas, effeminacy is the aversion to suffering due to attachment to pleasure. It is a vice against the virtue of fortitude.

We can also define it as the display of feminine traits by a man, which is disordered.

Whereas "femininity" is the perfection given by God to women, a beautiful and powerful thing.

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Thanks for proving my point.

Rocag said:

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Put away your "Jumping to Conclusions" mat for a minute. No one was talking about Teddy Roosevelt at all. Was he kook? I certainly don't consider myself to be an expert on Teddy Roosevelt so I'll reserve judgement on that one.

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He was an odd guy.

Sapper Redux said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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I find the intersection of this side of the right wing and Trump, a man who literally believes exercise will kill you faster and has a huge fat man rack, fascinating.

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I have said nothing about Trump. I only supported him insofar as I believed he would advance our positions. Where did you get Trump out of this?

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You're trying to argue that being physically fit is near-necessary to be successful, or demonstrates a dedication to success. I'm pointing out that the current right wing leader is the poster child for American excess and laziness in every single form.

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No where did I say it was necessary. I said it should be a focus, not that it is necessary. Trump is also in his mid 70s, I don't expect people that age to be a pillar of health. He was in decent shape for the majority of his life though and was not fat.

RebelE Infantry said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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Physically weak.

As I said, there is no shame in being born weak. But to acknowledge it and then willfully not do anything to improve it is effeminate. The body prefers to be at rest and seek pleasure. You must subdue it with the will and forge it. Likewise with the spirit.

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"Effeminate." Why is the feminine a slur to you?

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Tell me you don't know the meaning of "effeminate" without telling me you don't know the meaning of "effeminate."

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Break the word down, champ.

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As defined by St Thomas Aquinas, effeminacy is the aversion to suffering due to attachment to pleasure. It is a vice against the virtue of fortitude.

We can also define it as the display of feminine traits by a man, which is disordered.

Whereas "femininity" is the perfection given by God to women, a beautiful and powerful thing.

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Thanks for proving my point.

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I guess it's only a slur if you deny that men and women are intrinsically different.

But effeminacy and femininity are two distinctly different things.

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It's an assumption that the feminine is disordered and the masculine is superior. It's an old concept.

Sapper Redux said:

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Rocag said:

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Put away your "Jumping to Conclusions" mat for a minute. No one was talking about Teddy Roosevelt at all. Was he kook? I certainly don't consider myself to be an expert on Teddy Roosevelt so I'll reserve judgement on that one.

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He was an odd guy.

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He was a mmasculine military man who liked physical fitness, like to hunt, was a big talker, and a strong leader. How was he weird? He's generally considered one of the greatest presidents we have ever had.

Sapper Redux said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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I find the intersection of this side of the right wing and Trump, a man who literally believes exercise will kill you faster and has a huge fat man rack, fascinating.

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I have said nothing about Trump. I only supported him insofar as I believed he would advance our positions. Where did you get Trump out of this?

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You're trying to argue that being physically fit is near-necessary to be successful, or demonstrates a dedication to success. I'm pointing out that the current right wing leader is the poster child for American excess and laziness in every single form.

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No where did I say it was necessary. I said it should be a focus, not that it is necessary. Trump is also in his mid 70s, I don't expect people that age to be a pillar of health. He was in decent shape for the majority of his life though and was not fat.

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No he wasn't. He was skinny fat. He did not work out.

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I was basing it on pictures, but fair enough.

larry culpepper said:

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Rocag said:

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This thread might be one of the kookiest examples of right-wing Christianity that I've ever seen. I freely admit as a fairly liberal atheist I just do not get how anyone could find this convincing and I likely never will. It's fascinating how the seemingly disparate lines of thought intermesh and produce something completely different. I'm still trying to figure out what the dominate portion of the belief system is. Is it the religious, the political, or the obsession with their version of "masculinity"?

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I'm listening to an audiobook on this topic right now. Jesus and John Wayne. It's an interesting insight on how this rugged, Christian version of masculinity has really dominated evangelicalism since the mid 20th century.

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Great book!!!

BAP Enthusiast said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Rocag said:

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Put away your "Jumping to Conclusions" mat for a minute. No one was talking about Teddy Roosevelt at all. Was he kook? I certainly don't consider myself to be an expert on Teddy Roosevelt so I'll reserve judgement on that one.

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He was an odd guy.

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He was a mmasculine military man who liked physical fitness, like to hunt, was a big talker, and a strong leader. How was he weird? He's generally considered one of the greatest presidents we have ever had.

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He was an excellent president. He was also an odd guy. He once called a cabinet meeting because he spotted a rare bird back early from winter migration.

RebelE Infantry said:

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No. It's the assumption that the feminine is disordered in men. Just as masculinity is disordered in women

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The assumptions behind both assume the feminine is beneath the masculine.