jrico2727 said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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jrico2727 said:

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This

Masculinity is defined as toxic in our times, however as society becomes more and more effeminate we are seeing a complete collapse of morals, the family, and eventually western society.

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I think it depends on how to define masculine. If this guy is the model of what it means to be masculine, then yes, masculinity is being defined as toxic in our times.

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Ogre is more of the deformed view of masculinity he is strong but aggressive and a drunk. He is totally controlled by his passions.

True masculinity is strength and virtue.

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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larry culpepper said:

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Rocag said:

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I'm starting to suspect that OP's Christianity is the most normal part of his belief system. I'm curious why you were an atheist in the first place but doubt it was for the same reasons I am.

And I continue to doubt that the explicit ties between Christianity and right wing politics has actually benefited Christianity. For every person like the OP who is drawn to Christianity that might not have been otherwise, how many others are pushed away?

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Count me in as one of the many that was pushed away. I started questioning my faith in college but if anything it was the far right wing politics, and especially Trumpism, that was the final nail in the coffin for me.

I'm happy for OP if he finds joy in coming back to his faith. But being part of that just was not for me and I do not see myself going back to it.

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You're young. I said the same things in college. I am not at all the same person I was at age 22.

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Sapper Redux said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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Sapper Redux said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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Macarthur said:

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Rocag said:

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I'm starting to suspect that OP's Christianity is the most normal part of his belief system. I'm curious why you were an atheist in the first place but doubt it was for the same reasons I am.

And I continue to doubt that the explicit ties between Christianity and right wing politics has actually benefited Christianity. For every person like the OP who is drawn to Christianity that might not have been otherwise, how many others are pushed away?

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Boy, you are not kidding. Wow.

I would not go so far as to say this is the nuttiest thread ever on the R&P, but I think it's right up there. Do you guys seriously not see where this looks and sounds completely BSC?

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A socially conservative Christian who loves to workout and views the elites and the left as agents of Satan, yeah sounds nutty to me.

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They want you watching porn, buying things you don't need, eating high fructose corn syrup, and doing drugs. You're much easier to control that way.

It's a weird world we live in. The cool guys are watching Star Wars and Marvel Comic views, the Nerds are lifting weights and reading esoteric poetry.

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No one would care if your worldview didn't include a desire to control others and return marginalized people back to the shadows.

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Depends on the reason they're marginalized doesn't it? Kind of cuts to the whole impossibility of moral relativism.

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Impossibility? You're engaged with it every day. Every religion and society is built on a morally relativistic scale. Slavery was pro-Christian until it wasn't. Segregation was pro-Christian until it wasn't. Giving women no independent rights was Biblical until it wasn't.

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Yes, impossibility. The reasons you mentioned point towards an objective scale by which things can be measured on. It wasn't that slavery was okay, it's just that blacks were property and not people, according to the slave holders. Murder wasn't okay in Nazi Germany, it's just that the jews were subhuman and those rules didn't apply to them.

That's the entire point of propaganda, trying to make caveats to what people know to be objectively true. Look at abortion for example, "okay, it's wrong to kill children, but what if we call it 'terminating' and instead of 'unborn child' we call it a 'tissue mass' or 'fetus'"

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"Objectively true." Okay. You just demonstrated my point. The arguments and justifications have happened for all of human history and still do. The Church justified auto de fes using the same Bible and the same Church fathers they use to denounce capital punishment today.

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What kind of point are you trying to make? You can't be trying to make the point that they were wrong, because such a thing doesn't exist. I'm able to point at behavior and say that it is wrong because such a thing does exist.

Everyone knows certain behavior is wrong, they just create new classes of people who the rules don't apply for. Infidels, Heretics, Jews, Slaves, Women, Gays, Christians, Gaijin, etc etc

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You claim objective morality but can't point to one period in history where this objective reality was manifest.

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It's manifested in every period even if it hasn't been practiced perfectly, that's why we have the gigantic overlap of moral codes in societies that never had any contact.

Again, in the American antebellum South you couldn't just walk up to someone and make them a slave, that was against the law. The only reason someone was a slave was because they were property; it's not wrong to own property. This is how they loophole'd the objective moral code.

I'll ask the question, is it moral to have sex with an animal if you own it? Why or why not?

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It was quite common to kidnap freed Black Americans and sell them into slavery. It happened as late as during Lee's Gettysburg Campaign. Even after the passage of the XIII Amendment, you see convict labor become a huge source of profits driven by convicting poor Blacks of minor or made-up crimes and then forcing them to work. This is one example. There's no universal morality to point to. No moment when there wasn't a debate over what was and was not moral.

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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Nothing else gives a better outward display of sacrifice, pain, hard work, dedication, etc. than weight lifting. First impressions make a big deal in all aspects of life. I am not diminishing other forms of sacrifice at all, I am just emphasizing the importance of this one.

Further, why would you want to ignore the numerous lessons on physical fitness from Paul who would have been considered a fitness obsessed even now?

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kurt vonnegut said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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People always respect a man who is jacked more than they do a fat body or skinny guy so if you want people to listen to you then you better get into the gym and do more than cardio.

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Does it depend on who you want to listen to you? It is likely that those who value the superficial may be more likely to listen to someone that is jacked. But are those that are less superficial likely to listen to you any more? For me personally, If I need to hire an engineer, lawyer, financial consultant, doctor, scientist, or any other expert, I kinda don't care how jacked they are. Being jacked doesn't make someone more worth listening to. If I need to hire someone to move my washing machine, then yeah, I want the jacked guy.

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This is why I said all things being equal. People are more likely to listen to someone who takes care of themselves physically than someone who does not. Why? Because it indicates discipline, a willingness to sacrifice, and a desire to push through pain to accomplish a goal. It doesn't increase your intelligence but it does make a better first impression and that is often as important as anything you say.

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With all due respect, you also said "People always respect a man who is jacked more than they do a fat body or skinny guy so if you want people to listen to you then you better get into the gym and do more than cardio."

I have no problem with weight lifting. I'm only trying to say that for many people and many professions, what kind of physical shape you are in is less of a predictor than I think you think it is. I work in an office with a bunch of engineers. Aint nobody in shape here. But I have some terribly hard working 'fat body's and 'skinny guys' that work for me. I've worked with engineers that were jacked and great at their job and another that was jacked and a lazy idiot. In my experience in 40 years, I conclude that being disciplined in your physical health is a good indicator that the person is disciplined in the physical health. . . and nothing more. Thats just my experience. I'm not saying you are wrong.

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kurt vonnegut said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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Nothing else gives a better outward display of sacrifice, pain, hard work, dedication, etc. than weight lifting. First impressions make a big deal in all aspects of life. I am not diminishing other forms of sacrifice at all, I am just emphasizing the importance of this one.

Further, why would you want to ignore the numerous lessons on physical fitness from Paul who would have been considered a fitness obsessed even now?

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What makes a first impression good depends on the audience and context. Imagine you are hiring a lawyer and sit down to interview two people; one is 6'-3" and lean and strong, the other is 5'-10" with a dad bod, receding hair line, and inch thick glasses. For you, your first impression might be that the fit person is more favorable. I think many people would disagree and want to hire the lawyer that looks like he's spent the last 30 years of his life hunched over studying a book.

Right or wrong, many people would look at someone that is 'jacked' and their first impression would lead them to think that this person is vain and that they care more about working out and how they look than [insert something more important].

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RebelE Infantry said:

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PacifistAg said:

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jrico2727 said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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jrico2727 said:

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This

Masculinity is defined as toxic in our times, however as society becomes more and more effeminate we are seeing a complete collapse of morals, the family, and eventually western society.

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I think it depends on how to define masculine. If this guy is the model of what it means to be masculine, then yes, masculinity is being defined as toxic in our times.

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Ogre is more of the deformed view of masculinity he is strong but aggressive and a drunk. He is totally controlled by his passions.

True masculinity is strength and virtue.

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Yes. But that strength has nothing to do with how much one can bench press. The OP seems to think muscles = masculine strength, because then when you point out a clear example of that not being the case, he moves the goalposts.

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Correct, deadlift is clearly the superior benchmark of overall strength.

But seriously, one cannot be a well rounded masculine man and be weak on purpose.

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PacifistAg said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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PacifistAg said:

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jrico2727 said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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jrico2727 said:

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This

Masculinity is defined as toxic in our times, however as society becomes more and more effeminate we are seeing a complete collapse of morals, the family, and eventually western society.

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I think it depends on how to define masculine. If this guy is the model of what it means to be masculine, then yes, masculinity is being defined as toxic in our times.

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Ogre is more of the deformed view of masculinity he is strong but aggressive and a drunk. He is totally controlled by his passions.

True masculinity is strength and virtue.

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Yes. But that strength has nothing to do with how much one can bench press. The OP seems to think muscles = masculine strength, because then when you point out a clear example of that not being the case, he moves the goalposts.

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Correct, deadlift is clearly the superior benchmark of overall strength.

But seriously, one cannot be a well rounded masculine man and be weak on purpose.

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This is nonsense. What's it mean to be "weak on purpose"? One doesn't need to lift weights to be "well rounded" or "masculine", and certainly doesn't need to lift weights to be like Christ. Christ is the standard for all men...and women.

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Quad Dog said:

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I'd consider myself physically weak on purpose. Some of it I just don't have the body type to me muscular, I never have been. But mostly it is a conscious decision to not spend an hour a day at the gym and spend that time with my family instead. I do watch what I eat and I've never weighed over 200 pounds though.

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RebelE Infantry said:

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PacifistAg said:

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RebelE Infantry said:

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PacifistAg said:

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jrico2727 said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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jrico2727 said:

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This

Masculinity is defined as toxic in our times, however as society becomes more and more effeminate we are seeing a complete collapse of morals, the family, and eventually western society.

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I think it depends on how to define masculine. If this guy is the model of what it means to be masculine, then yes, masculinity is being defined as toxic in our times.

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Ogre is more of the deformed view of masculinity he is strong but aggressive and a drunk. He is totally controlled by his passions.

True masculinity is strength and virtue.

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Yes. But that strength has nothing to do with how much one can bench press. The OP seems to think muscles = masculine strength, because then when you point out a clear example of that not being the case, he moves the goalposts.

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Correct, deadlift is clearly the superior benchmark of overall strength.

But seriously, one cannot be a well rounded masculine man and be weak on purpose.

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This is nonsense. What's it mean to be "weak on purpose"? One doesn't need to lift weights to be "well rounded" or "masculine", and certainly doesn't need to lift weights to be like Christ. Christ is the standard for all men...and women.

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There is no shame in being weak. There is shame in staying weak. If you are a weak man and do nothing to change that, you are effeminate and not masculine.

There is a strong and direct connection between the spiritual life and the body. One must conquer the flesh to improve the interior life. This is why fasting is so powerful.

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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jrico2727 said:

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This

Masculinity is defined as toxic in our times, however as society becomes more and more effeminate we are seeing a complete collapse of morals, the family, and eventually western society.

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Exactly

Tell people you like to watch porn and smoke weed and they'll think you're normal. Tell them you like to lift weights and go to daily mass and they'll think you're a freak.

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How do you feel about people that watch porn and smoke weed. Do you consider them normal or freaks?

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I consider them both if that makes sense. They're the norm as everyone else is doing it, they're freaks because it's completely disjointed from reality and a healthy lifestyle.

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It seems to me that you are frustrated that some people consider your lifestyle freakish? But, you also find many of their lifestyle choices to be freakish? Am I correct so far? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

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I don't know about frustrated, more confused at how things have changed so quickly. I'm a youngish guy, still a handful of years from 40, and I feel like an old man yelling at kids to get off his lawn.

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I get that. I am 40 and often find myself yelling at both the kids and the old people. Yelling at the kids to do some listening to their elders. And yelling at the elders to recognize that they don't get to tell the kids what to value or what to believe. Nor do they get to blame the kids for their shortcomings.

Each generation gets to contribute to this society and to the world. The kids on the lawn - its not their fault that the media is ****ed up. Its not their fault that the political world is ****ed up. Its not their fault that politicians are bought and that the rich and powerful buy 'laws' and favors at the expensive of others. Its not their fault that they are inheriting a country that is still healing over centuries of slavery and bigotry and hate. It is the fault of the previous generations. The next generation may be wrong about a great many things, but can you really blame them for not wanting to be like the previous generations?

25 years ago my dad thought my music was stupid and that us kids wore stupid clothes. 50 years ago his dad thought his music was trash, his hair was too long, and that he didn't work hard enough. I'm sorry you think porn and weed makes someone a freak. And I'm sorry some people think you are a freak for working out and going to church. I'm an atheist in the Bible belt. . . . get over it.

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Rocag said:

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This thread might be one of the kookiest examples of right-wing Christianity that I've ever seen. I freely admit as a fairly liberal atheist I just do not get how anyone could find this convincing and I likely never will. It's fascinating how the seemingly disparate lines of thought intermesh and produce something completely different. I'm still trying to figure out what the dominate portion of the belief system is. Is it the religious, the political, or the obsession with their version of "masculinity"?

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Quote:

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It's not the people who think I'm a freak perse, but the growing acceptance of the idea that smoking weed and watching porn are normal, and that going to mass and lifting weights is abnormal that is the issue.

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PacifistAg said:

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Quad Dog said:

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I'd consider myself physically weak on purpose. Some of it I just don't have the body type to me muscular, I never have been. But mostly it is a conscious decision to not spend an hour a day at the gym and spend that time with my family instead. I do watch what I eat and I've never weighed over 200 pounds though.

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Yep. As a woman, we deal with our own toxic perceptions of what women are supposed to look like, and it has disastrous effects. This fixation on being thin or being "jacked" is leading to an increase in eating disorders among men and women.

But my wife and I work out together about 30 minutes...3 days on, 1 day off. We don't go to the gym, but do it at home because we value that time with our kids. Give me relaxation and time with our kids over going to the gym so some insecure person can pat me on the back about how I look.

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RebelE Infantry said:

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Physically weak.

As I said, there is no shame in being born weak. But to acknowledge it and then willfully not do anything to improve it is effeminate. The body prefers to be at rest and seek pleasure. You must subdue it with the will and forge it. Likewise with the spirit.

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BluHorseShu said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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PacifistAg said:

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BAP Enthusiast said:

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Dilettante said:

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Hey, devout Christian OP. What's BAP?

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It's an acronym for a dissident right wing author who goes by the pseudonym Bronze Age Pervert that wrote the book Bronze Age Mindset. He's the creator of right wing bodybuilder culture and has been very influential among people in the far right.

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"Right wing bodybuilder culture"? That's a thing? Can't people just lift weights without it being about politics?

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I have honesty never met a serious weight lifter who did it purely for health reason that was a leftist to the point where I am convinced they don't exist. If you lift weights religiously, then it's a near guarantee you're going to be right wing politically.

Right wing bodybuilding culture is more accurately termed Esoteric Right Wing Bodybuilding Culture. Basically, men who pride themselves on masculinity, self improvement, physicality, general nutrition, and being well read. People always respect a man who is jacked more than they do a fat body or skinny guy so if you want people to listen to you then you better get into the gym and do more than cardio.

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I've known a lot of serious weightlifters (and I mean solely focused on physique not the general well rounded athlete)…and 'well read' they were not. Most couldn't pass a mirror without checking themselves out. But sounds like my experience was probably an outlier. Congrats on your return. If I had to wager…I would bet it was more the love of God touching your heart and your family…more so than a Soros funded super secret pedo-ring cabal. No doubt our nation/world is always being deceived, but it's Gods love that sustains us

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Sapper Redux said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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kurt vonnegut said:

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Joe Boudain said:

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jrico2727 said:

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This

Masculinity is defined as toxic in our times, however as society becomes more and more effeminate we are seeing a complete collapse of morals, the family, and eventually western society.

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Exactly

Tell people you like to watch porn and smoke weed and they'll think you're normal. Tell them you like to lift weights and go to daily mass and they'll think you're a freak.

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How do you feel about people that watch porn and smoke weed. Do you consider them normal or freaks?

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I consider them both if that makes sense. They're the norm as everyone else is doing it, they're freaks because it's completely disjointed from reality and a healthy lifestyle.

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It seems to me that you are frustrated that some people consider your lifestyle freakish? But, you also find many of their lifestyle choices to be freakish? Am I correct so far? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

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I don't know about frustrated, more confused at how things have changed so quickly. I'm a youngish guy, still a handful of years from 40, and I feel like an old man yelling at kids to get off his lawn.

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I get that. I am 40 and often find myself yelling at both the kids and the old people. Yelling at the kids to do some listening to their elders. And yelling at the elders to recognize that they don't get to tell the kids what to value or what to believe. Nor do they get to blame the kids for their shortcomings.

Each generation gets to contribute to this society and to the world. The kids on the lawn - its not their fault that the media is ****ed up. Its not their fault that the political world is ****ed up. Its not their fault that politicians are bought and that the rich and powerful buy 'laws' and favors at the expensive of others. Its not their fault that they are inheriting a country that is still healing over centuries of slavery and bigotry and hate. It is the fault of the previous generations. The next generation may be wrong about a great many things, but can you really blame them for not wanting to be like the previous generations?

25 years ago my dad thought my music was stupid and that us kids wore stupid clothes. 50 years ago his dad thought his music was trash, his hair was too long, and that he didn't work hard enough. I'm sorry you think porn and weed makes someone a freak. And I'm sorry some people think you are a freak for working out and going to church. I'm an atheist in the Bible belt. . . . get over it.

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It's not the people who think I'm a freak perse, but the growing acceptance of the idea that smoking weed and watching porn are normal, and that going to mass and lifting weights is abnormal that is the issue.

I'll use another example to show what I mean. I've seen a bunch of articles aghast at the fact that Phillip Rivers has 9 kids with the same woman, who is his wife. Almost as if he's some sort of Handmaid's Tale weirdo, some have gone so far as to call what he has an "alternative lifestyle".

Antonio Rogers Cromartie has 14 kids with 8 different women, there are less exaggerated cases of the same sprinkled all over Hollywood and the sports world. It doesn't really raise an eyebrow.

Why?

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Because you choose to consume certain forms of media that highlight specific reactions to drive engagement and assure your tribal support of their beliefs.

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Rocag said:

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This thread might be one of the kookiest examples of right-wing Christianity that I've ever seen. I freely admit as a fairly liberal atheist I just do not get how anyone could find this convincing and I likely never will. It's fascinating how the seemingly disparate lines of thought intermesh and produce something completely different. I'm still trying to figure out what the dominate portion of the belief system is. Is it the religious, the political, or the obsession with their version of "masculinity"?

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