John 6:63 (ESV): 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life

If his words are in your heart the same Spirit that breathes life, and breathed/inspired the holy scripture, then the Spirit is in you.

Zobel said:

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It's a fine line. We see the sin, but not the repentance. There's a famous story of a monk who would get drunk every day. He scandalized pilgrims and the brothers, and one day he died. The brothers were relive and went to tell the elder the monk was dead. The elder said he knew: he saw the angels come to the monks death bed that night. The monks said no, father, you're thinking of the wrong brother. And he told them - that monk was taken from his family as a child by the Turks. He was forced to drink alcohol first so he would not cry when his family was fleeing the Turks and later by Turkish soldiers for their amusement. He'd been an alcoholic from childhood. When he came to the monastery he asked what he should do and each year he struggled to reduce how much he drank by one drink per year. By the time he died he was down to only a few, but he still got drunk from the small amount.

We saw a weak man, but God saw a warrior. We see the sin, God sees the repentance. He judges both the work and the effort. He judges the heart. We must never condemn others or take what is His to ours. We must never say if you do this you will be condemned - how can we know that? We know what is sin, but St Paul also says what a man reckons as sin to himself is sin. God will judge. We must pray for the salvation of all.

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I was a drunk. I got saved, and was no longer a drunk. The Holy Spirit did the convicting. "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

But we do struggle with sin every day. There's no denying that. But if we didn't struggle, we would not be saved. We wouldn't care. Unsaved people love their sin.

We were slaves to sin, and we are slaves no longer.

TxAgPreacher said:

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Pierow said:

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Zobel said:

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Again, even wondering whether you're saved or not presumes the merit system or the checklist or the bar. You're just trying to figure out if you've done enough, or if you believe Jesus did it all or whatever. The answer is simpler - there is no bar. There is no list. There is no litmus test. You will be judged by the righteous judge based on your words, and deeds, and thoughts. How you loved God, how you loved others. It's not a state you're in when you die, or whether you said a prayer once when you were a kid, or if you intellectually believe He is God, or if you performed miracles in His name, or if you did enough good things. There is no criteria. He will judge, based on YOU. And so we say, we are unprofitable servants, lord have mercy, and we rest in the fact that He is good, and merciful, and loves mankind. But no one should ever presume that they have finished or done enough. What is enough? Not that we have already attained it, but we press on to take hold of that which Christ took hold of us, we work out our salvation, we join in His suffering, we flee from evil, we pursue good, we offer ourselves as living sacrifices and instruments of righteousness - so that, even if we save others, we might ourselves not fall away.

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You can do nothing on your own. If you do not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, you do not have Christ. If you still think you're going to be judged for sins, you really don't have the gospel at all. We will be judged by our good deeds, and what we did in and outside of the body, and receive different crowns (which we will leave at Jesus's feet anyway), but we will not be judged for our sins. Jesus nailed everyone of them to the cross.

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The Spirit is in me. You worry about you.

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I have no idea what that means. My remarks were not directed at you.

It's not complicated.

It was not, but he was very fair and one of the most brilliant men I've ever met. And he was very complimentary towards the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity and the Filioque controversy.

TxAgPreacher said:

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It's not complicated.

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If you have the Spirit, that makes me extremely happy. I know He will never leave me, He is Who keeps me. Can you say the same?

Pierow said:

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TxAgPreacher said:

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It's not complicated.

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If you have the Spirit, that makes me extremely happy. I know He will never leave me, He is Who keeps me. Can you say the same?

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God will never forsake you, but anyone can choose to walk away.

Anyone who thinks he stands should take heed lest he fall.

I'm 100% confident in my salvation. I'm also not so naive as to think that if I don't watch myself that I could potentially fall away.

Right. So don't become enslaved again, says St Paul. There is always the choice to continue in righteousness or to revert to sin.

We should read and apply the parable of the sower, the parable of the tower, the parable of the talents, the parable of the last judgment to ourselves.

The gospel lands in some and grows, but those don't continue to salvation. The Lord gives talents to the faithful, but some don't use them. Salvation comes as a surprise to some, condemnation is a surprise to others. These parts of the gospel are every bit as integral as the nice-nice parts.

It's kind of tough to be taught about a subject from a person who believes what he is teaching is wrong. Not criticizing, that is a difficult thing. Unless your class is, here's where we agree and here is where we don't, but you have the temptation to add "and here's why they're wrong and not us" to the end. Haha. If you are interested there are some lengthy posts on here about the filioque, Church, and the doctrine of the Trinity where I did my best to represent the teaching of the Church correctly. PM me and I'll find a link.

Definitely understand. He was not Orthodox but I think he was in agreement with their position on those topics.

Why do you want to be saved? What made you decide that?

TxAgPreacher said:

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Thief on the cross argument is pointless. He died under the Jewish covenant.

The New Covenant wasn't established until after Christ was raised from the dead. That's when he defeated death. Being baptized into his death as an appeal to new life would have been pointless before he was raised.

lets move on.

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I disagree wholeheartedly. From one perspective the New Covenant wasn't fully revealed and fulfilled until Pentecost. However, it has existed as long as Christ has existed, which is before the beginning of time. Forgiveness, redemption, sacrifice and reconciliation are fundamental parts of Christ's eternal nature. These didn't come into existence at the time of his Resurrection. They were always true. The Old Law never promised to confer eternal life, but Moses and Elijah are seen glorified and speaking with Jesus before his crucifixion and resurrection. If the only way to eternal life is the New Covenant, and the New Covenant hadn't happened yet, then how did they get there?

The New Covenant is eternal as Christ is eternal. It has been in full effect from the moment of creation. Abraham, Moses, Elijah, and I'm sure countless others were judged under the New Covenant and granted eternal life in the same way that we hope to be. So Christ had every reason to offer forgiveness and redemption to the thief on the cross, and Christ was already the master of the New Covenant even before his death.

15 Now I make known to you, brothers and sisters, the gospel which I preached to you, which you also received, in which you also stand, 2 by which you also are saved, if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

3 For I handed down to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.


This is the clearest presentation of the gospel in the new testament. You and I sinned. Jesus died and rose for our sins as a gift to forgive us. We either believe/accept/trust that he did this for us or we reject it.

If's it's not by faith or free, it's not good news and not the gospel.

TxAgPreacher said:

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Pierow said:

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TxAgPreacher said:

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It's not complicated.

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If you have the Spirit, that makes me extremely happy. I know He will never leave me, He is Who keeps me. Can you say the same?

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God will never forsake you, but anyone can choose to walk away.

Anyone who thinks he stands should take heed lest he fall.

I'm 100% confident in my salvation. I'm also not so naive as to think that if I don't watch myself that I could potentially fall away.

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Typical church of Christ doctrine. You left out the rest.

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
1 Corinthians 10:13 KJV


You guys lean on that sort of thing but leave out the context. But I do remember growing up in the church and singing this song. I still don't understand how people in the church of Christ can sing it. They don't seem to believe it.


...for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that HE is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."
2 Timothy 1:12 KJV


It really doesn't sound like Jesus is needing our help at all:

"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.""
John 6:39-40 ESV



Do you understand the difference between justification, and sanctification? It's important, you may wanna learn.

"[All] are justified and made upright and in right standing with God, freely and gratuitously by His grace (His unmerited favor and mercy), through the redemption which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,

For we hold that a man is justified and made upright by faith independent of and distinctly apart from good deeds (works of the Law). [The observance of the Law has nothing to do with justification.]"
Romans 3:24, 28 AMPC






When we were in our sins, we were dead. Not sick, dead. He brought us to life the moment we repented and put our trust in his work. We will only die once, not twice. That's a promise from him. I feel sorry for you believing that our loving father, (who does discipline us if we get out of line), is going to kick you out of the family because he stopped loving you. That's a horrible theology.

I am under grace alone. If you are under law still, watch out.


"For the promise to Abraham or his posterity, that he should inherit the world, did not come through [observing the commands of] the Law but through the righteousness of faith. [Gen. 17:4-6; 22:16-18.] If it is the adherents of the Law who are to be the heirs, then faith is made futile and empty of all meaning and the promise [of God] is made void (is annulled and has no power). For the Law results in [divine] wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression [of it either]. Therefore, [inheriting] the promise is the outcome of faith and depends [entirely] on faith, in order that it might be given as an act of grace (unmerited favor), to make it stable and valid and guaranteed to all his descendantsnot only to the devotees and adherents of the Law, but also to those who share the faith of Abraham, who is [thus] the father of us all."
Romans 4:13-16 AMPC


Yee haw!! No legal (law keeping) caveats in this:

"THEREFORE, SINCE we are justified (acquitted, declared righteous, and given a right standing with God) through faith, let us [grasp the fact that we] have [the peace of reconciliation to hold and to enjoy] peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One). Through Him also we have [our] access (entrance, introduction) by faith into this grace (state of God's favor) in which we [firmly and safely] stand. And let us rejoice and exult in our hope of experiencing and enjoying the glory of God."
Romans 5:1-2 AMPC

What's the AMPC translation?

Amplified. I read quite a few different versions, but this is my favorite.

Speaking of leaving out context, the verse preceding 1 Cor 10:13 says "So the one who thinks he is standing firm should be careful not to fall."

I don't think anyone is saying that the Lord needs help to save anyone. But, we have free will, and we can choose.

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Do you understand the difference between justification, and sanctification? It's important, you may wanna learn.

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This is not a helpful tone.

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I feel sorry for you believing that our loving father, (who does discipline us if we get out of line), is going to kick you out of the family because he stopped loving you. That's a horrible theology.

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God loves all men, and Jesus is the savior of all men, especially those who believe. Yet not all are saved. Are you suggesting He does not love them? Not hardly.


Also, your AMPC version of the bible is adding a lot of words and definitions which are super questionable.

Romans 3:28 says "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law." It doesn't say "good deeds" and it doesn't say "independent and distinctly." And that passage is NOT about "good deeds" it is about following the Torah. Other reading is super strained, for example in 3:20 - "For the law merely brings awareness of sin." Good deeds bring awareness of sin? No, not hardly.

I am leery of a "translation" which is more like commentary. And, because of the interjections and "amplifications" you're all cross-wise about what Law means and how it pertains to salvation.

TxAgPreacher said:

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Believe, repent, confess, be baptized, practice righteousness.

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Acts 2:36-39 (ESV): 6 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off

Romans 10:9-10 (ESV): because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

1 Peter 3:20-21 (ESV): when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


Mark 16:16 (ESV): Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

1 John 3:4-10 (ESV): Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.


1 John 5:1-5 (ESV): Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the worldour faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

1 John 5:13 (ESV): 13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

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Exactly,

Proof-texting is of no use, and most folks in this thread are talking past each other because they're talking about different soteriological systems and concepts while using under-defined terms.

Most, as I mentioned, are using the merit system in one way or another - there's a bar or some standard for salvation, all sin and so fall short of that standard, then there's ((something)) that happens to get back over the bar (or not).

Roman Catholic system says you get merits through the sacraments and good works and the treasury of merits of the saints and the infinite merits of Christ. Your status above/below the bar is based on a moment in time - above the bar, state of grace. Mortal sin puts you below the bar, but venial doesn't.

Some Protestant systems say you get all the merits, all at once, applied to your account when you are saved. Then they vary about when that happens - baptism, belief, confession, and so on. Or in some cases you're elect before all time and you have no choice, you're over the bar or not and there's nothing you can do about it. And other distinctions are, having crossed the bar if you can go back under by apostasy and so forth.

One issue I have with the merit system is it's a mess trying to harmonize ALL of the scriptures to it. So you get as many versions as you have readers as you have opinions, and all cite different scriptures to "prove" their point - as often as not contradicting one with the other, or disagreeing on what the "plain language" of the same verse may be.

I'd put forward there is no merit system. All mankind is saved from sin and death through Christ Jesus defeating death by death, and all will be raised on the Day of Judgment. For God is the savior of all men. And, on the Day, there will be restitution and judgment for what men do, good and evil. As St Paul, the great champion of justification by faith says:

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God 'will repay each one according to his deeds.' To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.

There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil, first for the Jew, then for the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, first for the Jew, then for the Greek. For God does not show favoritism.

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You can't just skip over that, you can't skip over the parable of the tares, or the sower, or the talents, or of the sheep and the goats. St Paul is not writing to pagans in his letters, he is writing to Christians! And warning them against falling away, and against doing evil.

If whatever soteriological system you say you profess has trouble with certain passages, or makes you skip past them, or doesn't flow naturally from the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets (because they are all about Jesus), then it can't be right.

Zobel said:

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I'd put forward there is no merit system. All mankind is saved from sin and death through Christ Jesus defeating death by death, and all will be raised on the Day of Judgment. For God is the savior of all men. And, on the Day, there will be restitution and judgment for what men do, good and evil.

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How is that not a merit system?

Bleh I should write more carefully, you're right. I should have capitalized Merit System. What I meant is I reject the system I described - what I'm referring to as the Merit System.

There's no check list or score or bar to be over. On one hand there is grace which is independent of us, and on the other there are promises and consequences for what we do. Not one or the other but both-and.

Everyone is saved from death to be at the judgment seat, both the righteous and the wicked.

And everyone will be judged based on what they did in their life. Separated as sheep and goats.

If you put your faith in God, which means trust in Him, obey Him, love Him, you will be saved in all of the different meanings of the word. Beyond that, it's a judgment issue - and that judgment is not ours to make. We see the outward things, He judges the heart, and His judgment is perfect and merciful and righteous. So we must never say - you are condemned to hell. And we should never say - I have already attained salvation. It's not "we who are saved" but "we who are being saved". Because there is an "already" portion to salvation but also a "not yet" portion.

If there is both an "already" and "not yet" aspect of salvation, why can we only speak in terms of the latter? Paul makes use of the former to urge the latter (Rom. 6).

Romans 6 doesn't say we have attained salvation. Baptism is a beginning, not an end. When a person is born, we don't say they have lived but are living. We don't say, we were married in the past tense, but we are married to our spouse. It's an ongoing thing. It's a relationship - ultimately salvation is about unity and relationship with Christ Jesus.

The reason we should not say "I am saved" - and by that mean, the work of salvation is complete in me, is because St Paul does not. He says,

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I want to know Christ and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to Him in His death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize of God's heavenly calling in Christ Jesus. All of us who are mature should embrace this point of view. And if you think differently about some issue, God will reveal this to you as well. Nevertheless, we must live up to what we have already attained.

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We are being saved - this is how the faithful are described in Acts 2:47, 1 Cor 1:18, or 2 Cor 2:15 (also others are those who are perishing).

It's fine to say, Jesus saved me - it's true, He did. He took hold of us, unilaterally, and reconciled with us, unilaterally, while we were still enemies. It's also fine to say, we are saved or we were saved, referring to the former. What isn't ok is to say "we are saved" and exclude that we are being saved, and we will be saved.

Since people often say the past tense with theological intent to exclude the others, or include the others in the past tense, I think it should be avoided.

I disagree. Just because a certain phrase requires theological explanation doesn't mean it shouldn't be used.

That's cool. I think it leads to a lot of confusion specifically because people use it and mean it in a way that excludes the other parts, so I avoid it when talking about the subject.

I feel the same way about calling Mary the mother of God. It can lead to confusion if not explained properly.

That's why we use Theotokos - God bearer.

This verse does clearly state we are not saved by good deeds.

5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we did in righteousness, but in accordance with His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Gospel of John purpose: how to have eternal life: Key Words of the book: Believe and Eternal Life Note: A form of the word repentance is not in this entire book.

Romans 1:4: All guilty, Gospel is free - not by works
Romans 5: results of the gospel
Romans 6: free gospel defended
Romans 7: why do I as a believer still struggle with sin?
Romans 8: The Holy Spirit Eternal Security
Romans 9-10: If eternal security is so good and true, what about the Jews?
Romans 12: How then should we as saved people live.

1 Corinthians 1: Audience Saved believers who those who trust in Jesus today will see in Heaven.
1 Corinthians 2 - 15: Address all of their sin issues from divisions, sexual immorality, falling into untrue doctrines

James: written to believers who are already saved and will be in heaven motivating them to live a productive fruitful Christian life. Has nothing to do with being saved from hell by works but rather saved from a useless life as a believer and yes believers can live useless lives.

1 John: written to believers with the context of "knowing Christ" and having fellowship with Him and one another. Has nothing to do with proving ones salvation but is all in reference to fellowship or intimately knowing Him.

For God so loved that world that whosoever believes shall not perish but have everlasting life. It does not say that for God so loved the world that whosoever repents, gets baptized, does good works, has eternal life.

Justification - free gift - eternal life, saved from hell
Sanctification - God continually molding the believer into the image of Christ as they abide, walk with Him. Will see the word save' in the present tense.
Glorification - God in the future will save the justified believer from a perishable body of sin.

Sigh. See what I mean? Yes, we are saved by Jesus past tense. Before we did anything good, He saved us through His grace, and we receive that mercy by being joined into the promises through baptism. But you're just saying "saved" but really meaning "justified" or including all aspects of salvation, past present and future.

"Go to heaven" is not in the scriptures. Nor is "saved from hell."

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For God so loved that world that whosoever believes shall not perish but have everlasting life. It does not say that for God so loved the world that whosoever repents, gets baptized, does good works, has eternal life.

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And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Did he sit around and wait in Ur, to receive the promise? No - the promise being made, which was a unilateral motion of grace on the part of God, he got up and obeyed. The faith and the obedience are not in opposition. They can't be. Put another way, a person who has faith in Jesus will repent, will be be baptized, will submit his body as an instrument of righteousness, and will have eternal life - so yes, they will be saved. If a person does not have faith, the rest will not follow either. There's no conflict here. It's not either or, it's not do works save apart from God - this is a heresy!

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Justification - free gift - eternal life, saved from hell

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Who is in danger of falling away? You mention 1 Corinthians. In ch 10 St Paul tells them - learn the lesson of Israel who were baptized, ate the spiritual food, so that we know that if we desire evil things, if we engage in idolatry or sexual immorality, or grumbling, we are in danger of not receiving the promises. He says - as you note to Christians who are believing, who are baptized, and who have partaken of the eucharist - "the one thinks he is standing firm should be careful not to fall." Or in another place - "They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid."

Or St Peter - "Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard so that you will not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing."

All men receive eternal life - the righteous and wicked with both be judged.

At any rate, if we understand that "save" includes justification, sanctification, and glorification - and even beyond this, then that's fine. If that's what we believe, no one living is saved, past tense. We are either being saved or perishing, as the scriptures say.

Zobel said:

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Speaking of leaving out context, the verse preceding 1 Cor 10:13 says "So the one who thinks he is standing firm should be careful not to fall."

I don't think anyone is saying that the Lord needs help to save anyone. But, we have free will, and we can choose.

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Do you understand the difference between justification, and sanctification? It's important, you may wanna learn.

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This is not a helpful tone.

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I feel sorry for you believing that our loving father, (who does discipline us if we get out of line), is going to kick you out of the family because he stopped loving you. That's a horrible theology.

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God loves all men, and Jesus is the savior of all men, especially those who believe. Yet not all are saved. Are you suggesting He does not love them? Not hardly.


Also, your AMPC version of the bible is adding a lot of words and definitions which are super questionable.

Romans 3:28 says "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law." It doesn't say "good deeds" and it doesn't say "independent and distinctly." And that passage is NOT about "good deeds" it is about following the Torah. Other reading is super strained, for example in 3:20 - "For the law merely brings awareness of sin." Good deeds bring awareness of sin? No, not hardly.

I am leery of a "translation" which is more like commentary. And, because of the interjections and "amplifications" you're all cross-wise about what Law means and how it pertains to salvation.

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I apologize for any tone issues that may have lead you to believe less of me. And I did not leave it out of context, the context was implied from the person I was responding to. That is what they posted, "The take heed unless you fall". I just added the next following verse.

The Amplified is generally used in lieu of a commentary.

As for the law, it is used as a mirror. We would not know sin at all but by the law. And I don't believe in free will. Again, we are dead in our trespasses. Not sick, dead. We are literally raised from the death of sin by the Holy Spirit. One has to be chosen by God, (using the preaching of the word), anyone chosen by God via the Holy Spirit will be justified, and a believer will be sanctified throughout their lives. There is no one who searches for God, there's no one who does good, no not one. God chooses us.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me."
John 6:44-45

We don't draw ourselves, again because no one searches after God. We are chosen.

"For many are called, but few are chosen.""
Matthew 22:14 NASB1995

It doesn't say we chose, it says we are chosen.

And I do believe that Christians need to know the difference between justification and sanctification. I am positionally justified. Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ, and put their faith in Him, is justified. Period. We don't have to work to continue to be justified. The works come naturally as a part of the Spirit working through us. If we don't have the Spirit, we are not saved.

"Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him."
Romans 5:9 NASB1995

It doesn't say might be saved if everything goes well, it says "shall be saved".

Peace

Zobel said:

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Proof-texting is of no use, and most folks in this thread are talking past each other because they're talking about different soteriological systems and concepts while using under-defined terms.

Most, as I mentioned, are using the merit system in one way or another - there's a bar or some standard for salvation, all sin and so fall short of that standard, then there's ((something)) that happens to get back over the bar (or not).

Roman Catholic system says you get merits through the sacraments and good works and the treasury of merits of the saints and the infinite merits of Christ. Your status above/below the bar is based on a moment in time - above the bar, state of grace. Mortal sin puts you below the bar, but venial doesn't.

Some Protestant systems say you get all the merits, all at once, applied to your account when you are saved. Then they vary about when that happens - baptism, belief, confession, and so on. Or in some cases you're elect before all time and you have no choice, you're over the bar or not and there's nothing you can do about it. And other distinctions are, having crossed the bar if you can go back under by apostasy and so forth.

One issue I have with the merit system is it's a mess trying to harmonize ALL of the scriptures to it. So you get as many versions as you have readers as you have opinions, and all cite different scriptures to "prove" their point - as often as not contradicting one with the other, or disagreeing on what the "plain language" of the same verse may be.

I'd put forward there is no merit system. All mankind is saved from sin and death through Christ Jesus defeating death by death, and all will be raised on the Day of Judgment. For God is the savior of all men. And, on the Day, there will be restitution and judgment for what men do, good and evil. As St Paul, the great champion of justification by faith says:

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God 'will repay each one according to his deeds.' To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow wickedness, there will be wrath and anger.

There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil, first for the Jew, then for the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, first for the Jew, then for the Greek. For God does not show favoritism.

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You can't just skip over that, you can't skip over the parable of the tares, or the sower, or the talents, or of the sheep and the goats. St Paul is not writing to pagans in his letters, he is writing to Christians! And warning them against falling away, and against doing evil.

If whatever soteriological system you say you profess has trouble with certain passages, or makes you skip past them, or doesn't flow naturally from the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets (because they are all about Jesus), then it can't be right.

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I mostly agree with you on this. My only point is that a lot of people are fooling themselves thinking they are Christian, touching base on Sunday, and living their lives the way they want the rest of the week. They are fooling themselves. The Scriptures quoted are plainly speaking to those among us who are "tares" not wheat. The chaff will be burnt. It's a warning to make certain our election is sure. Christians should constantly check. But there is no middle ground, either you are saved, or you are not. And if you are, Christ, through the Spirit, will keep you. That's all I'm saying.

Zobel said:

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That's why we use Theotokos - God bearer.

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Much clearer.

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And I don't believe in free will.

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yuk.

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God chooses us.

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yes. And He chose everyone, because He is the savior of all men, especially those who believe. He's the savior of the world. He wants all men to be saved and come to knowledge of truth. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but wants everyone to repent. He stands pleading with us to repent. He didn't send His son to condemn the world but to save it - and all mankind with it. Some resist this. That doesn't mean God damned them before all time. Double yuk.

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I am positionally justified. Anyone who believes in Jesus Christ, and put their faith in Him, is justified. Period. We don't have to work to continue to be justified. The works come naturally as a part of the Spirit working through us. If we don't have the Spirit, we are not saved.

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"Positionally justified"? Where's that in the scriptures?

And again, here you are basically saying, again, justified = saved. They're not the same thing.

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It doesn't say might be saved if everything goes well, it says "shall be saved".

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Oh? Better tell St Paul, who earlier (likely the first work of the NT) wrote "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain."


Or later in the same epistle to the Romans: "Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off."

You're still picking and choosing. You can't point to the passages that speak in the past tense and say, because of these passages, all of these OTHER passages which have conditional and consequential outcomes are foregone conclusions.

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My only point is that a lot of people are fooling themselves thinking they are Christian, touching base on Sunday, and living their lives the way they want the rest of the week. They are fooling themselves. The Scriptures quoted are plainly speaking to those among us who are "tares" not wheat. The chaff will be burnt. It's a warning to make certain our election is sure. Christians should constantly check. But there is no middle ground, either you are saved, or you are not. And if you are, Christ, through the Spirit, will keep you. That's all I'm saying.

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How can you say this, then turn around and be so harsh with others about being concerned about their salvation?

How does one make sure our election is sure if we are chosen? Who are we "checking" with, if we don't have free will? This is very confusing.

On the other, since I very much believe that we have free will - and that the scriptures affirm this over and over again, along with the teaching of the fathers - I think every man should apply the lessons and warning of scripture to himself.

"The one who thinks he is standing firm should be careful not to fall."
"Whoever has will be given more, but whoever does not have, even what he thinks he has will be taken away from him."
"Do not be arrogant, but be afraid."
"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."
"be on your guard so that you will not...fall from your secure standing."
"Therefore I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight like I am beating the air. No, I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified."

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

Zobel, you have a partial understanding of the Roman Catholic Church's position. There's much more. I'm following along and don't want to derail this thread. Suffice to say it is not unlike some of what you are so eloquently espousing.