Holy Fathers on free will

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Zobel
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AG
This was posted previously in another thread, but it was wawy too long so I removed the direct quotations. However, I spent time compiling them and I think they are worth reading, so here they are. Warning in advance, this is long.

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Just how far is man's will fallen? Is it fallen to the point that he can no longer even will to the good? Or is man completely free to do good or evil by himself? At this point, St John Cassian cautions us to the productivity of such a discussion: "believing [either side] and asserting them more widely than is right [causes us to be] entangled in all kinds of opposite errors". Further, "If however any more subtle inference of man's argumentation and reasoning seems opposed to this interpretation, it should be avoided rather than brought forward to the destruction of the faith...for how God works all things in us and yet everything can be ascribed to free will, cannot be fully grasped by the mind and reason of man." In short, it is a mystery with an acceptable paradox, no different than the Incarnation or any number of aspects of the Christian faith.

However, here we are. The consensus of the fathers is, without qualification, man has free will. St John says that at all stages it is God, and man. God gives the divine gift, a "seed of goodness" to each man, and the choice of free will is open to either side; then grace helps us to attain to virtue, but the will is not destroyed; and finally God helps us persist to what we gain, with our working in synergy with him. But clearly the will remains free.

And this is not St John Cassian alone. St John himself makes this abundantly clear, when he says if we remove the freedom of the will, "we may seem to have broken the rule of the Church's faith" and "laid down by all the Catholic fathers" etc. What fathers? He appears to literally mean all of them. Of course Calvin himself recognized this when he wrote "Even though the Greeks above the rest and Chrysostom especially among them extol the ability of the human will, yet all the ancients, save Augustine, so differ, waver, or speak confusedly on this subject, that almost nothing certain can be derived from their writings." Can we trust his words here? Is it true that "nothing certain" can be derived? Let's find out.

St Ignatius of Antioch says "Seeing, then, all things have an end, and there is set before us life upon our observance [of God's precepts], but death as the result of disobedience, and every one, according to the choice he makes, shall go to his own place, let us flee from death, and make choice of life. For I remark, that two different characters are found among men the one true coin, the other spurious. The truly devout man is the right kind of coin, stamped by God Himself. The ungodly man, again, is false coin, unlawful, spurious, counterfeit, wrought not by God, but by the devil. I do not mean to say that there are two different human natures, but that there is one humanity, sometimes belonging to God, and sometimes to the devil. If any one is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice." (Letter to the Magnesians).

One of the earliest writings we have, the Letter to Diogentus, shows free will to be an ancient belief of the Church: "...as a king sending a son, he sent him as King, he sent him as God, he sent him as Man to men, he was saving and persuading when he sent him, not compelling, for compulsion is not an attribute of God." (Letter, 7.3)

St Justin writes "For the coming into being at first was not in our own power; and in order that we may follow those things which please Him, choosing them by means of the rational faculties He has Himself endowed us with, He both persuades us and leads us to faith." (First Apology 10) and "But neither do we affirm that it is by fate that men do what they do, or suffer what they suffer, but that each man by free choice acts rightly or sins." (Second Apology 7).

Athenagoras writes "Just as with men, who have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice, for you would not either honor the good or punish the bad, unless vice and virtue were in their own power..." (Athenagoras' Plea, 24)

St Irenaeus says "For it was not merely for those who believed on Him in the time of Tiberius Caesar that Christ came, nor did the Father exercise His providence for the men only who are now alive, but for all men altogether, who from the beginning, according to their capacity, in their generation have both feared and loved God, and practiced justice and piety towards their neighbors, and have earnestly desired to see Christ and to hear his voice." (IV.22.2)

"This expression of our Lord, 'How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,' , set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free agent from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will towards us is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. In man, as well as the angels, He has placed the power of choice...so that those who had yielded obedience might rightly possess the good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On, the other hand, they who have not obeyed, shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment : for God did kindly bestow on them what was good." (Against heresies IV.37.1) and concluding "all such expressions demonstrate that man is in his own power with respect to faith." (Against Heresies IV.37.2).

St Cyprian of Carthage (a Latin father) wrote "The liberty of believing or not believing is placed in free choice" (Treatise 52).

St Athanasius says that human virtue depends on our free will: "Wherefore virtue has needs at our hands of willingness alone, since it is in us and formed in us" (Life of Anthony).

Origen wrote "This is also clearly defined in the teaching of the Church, that every rational soul is possessed of free-will and volition." (De Principiis Preface 5).

St Gregory the Theologian wrote "For that which He [Christ] has not assumed He has not healed; but that which is united to His Godhead is also saved. If only half Adam fell, then that which Christ assumes and saves may be half also; but if the whole of his nature fell, it must be united to the whole nature of Him that was begotten, and so be saved as a whole." He says that our being in the image of God is the rationality in our creation, that "He endowed [us] with breath from Himself, which is the intelligent soul" and gave Adam "law as material upon which to exercise his free will." To save us, "He came to His own image, put on flesh for the sake of flesh, mingled Himself with a rational soul on account of my soul, purifying like with like, and in all things except sin He became man." He continues "He who Is becomes, the Uncreated is created, and the Unlimited is limited by means of a rational soul which mediates between the divinity and the grossness of the flesh." (Oration 45, On Pascha). Even the unregenerated man has a rational soul, else he is no longer in the image of God. To say otherwise is a troublesome claim, to say the least.

St Vincent of Lerins says the lack of a free will - a "necessity constrained will" is an erroneous teaching because it means that sin is irresistible: "...a human nature of such a description, that of its own motion, and by the impulse of its necessity-constrained will, it can do nothing else, can will nothing else, but sin..." (Commonitory, 24). Further, this is a heresy opposed to that of Pelagius' because it attributes man's sin to God.

St Methodius confirms: "Now those who decide that man is not possessed of free-will and affirm that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate, and her unwritten commands, are guilty of impiety towards God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils." (The Banquet of the Ten Virgins, 16).

St Cyril of Jerusalem in his Catechitical Lectures speaks a lot about free will. Lecture 2 chapters 1 and 2 are devoted to it, and he says later in 2 for example, "Our nature admits of salvation, but the will also is required." Lecture 4 says "Know also that you have a soul self-governed, the noblest work of God, made after the image of its Creator: immortal because of God that gives it immortality; a living being, rational, imperishable, because of Him that bestowed these gifts: having free power to do what it wills. For it is not according to your nativity that you sin" and "we now sin of our free-will" and clearly "The soul is self-governed: and though the devil can suggest, he has not the power to compel against the will. He pictures to you the thought of fornication: if you will, you accept it; if you will not, you reject. For if you were a fornicator by necessity, then for what cause did God prepare hell? If you were a doer of righteousness by nature and not by will, wherefore did God prepare crowns of ineffable glory?"

St Gregory of Nyssa in his Great Catechism teaches "or He who holds sovereignty over the universe permitted something to be subject to our own control, over which each of us alone is master. Now this is the will: a thing that cannot be enslaved, being the power of self-determination." (Great Catechism 47, 77A).

St John Chrysostom clearly teaches free will. In Homily 16 on Romans he says that election "[adds] to the noble born free-will grace from Himself." Later he says in regard to Romans 9:20-21 "Here it is not to do away with free-will that he says this, but to show, up to what point we ought to obey God...do not suppose that this is said by Paul as an account of the creation, nor as implying a necessity over the will, but to illustrate the sovereignty and difference of dispensations; for if we do not take it in this way, various incongruities will follow, for if here he were speaking about the will, and those who are good and those not so, He will be Himself the Maker of these, and man will be free from all responsibility. And at this rate, Paul will also be shown to be at variance with himself, as he always bestows chief honor upon free choice."

Again he emphasizes "Because when he says, it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, he does not deprive us of free-will, but shows that all is not one's own, for that it requires grace from above. For it is binding on us to will, and also to run: but to confide not in our own labors, but in the love of God toward man."

And again "Whence then are some vessels of wrath, and some of mercy? Of their own free choice. God, however, being very good, shows the same kindness to both. For it was not those in a state of salvation only to whom He showed mercy, but also Pharaoh, as far as His part went. For of the same long-suffering, both they and he had the advantage. And if he was not saved, it was quite owing to his own will: since, as for what concerns God, he had as much done for him as they who were saved."

In Homily 3 on Timothy he calls believing in the absence of free will an error - "Having thus enlarged upon the love of God which, not content with showing mercy to a blasphemer and persecutor, conferred upon him other blessings in abundance, he has guarded against that error of the unbelievers which takes away free will, by adding, 'with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.' "

St Leo the Great, another contemporary of St Augustine, says "For accusing ourselves in our confessions and refusing the spirit's consent to our fleshly lusts, we stir up against us the enmity of him who is the author of sin, but secure a peace with God that nothing can destroy, by accepting His gracious service, in order that we may not only surrender ourselves in obedience to our King but also be united to Him by our free-will." (Sermon 26)

And later, after St Augustine but before Calvin, the Church can call upon St Faustus of Riez, who says "We, however, maintain that whosoever is lost is lost by his own fault; yet, he could have obtained salvation through grace had he cooperated with it; and, on the other hand, whoever through grace attains to perfection by means of cooperation, might nevertheless, through his own fault, his own negligence, fall and be lost. We exclude, of course, all personal pride, since we insist that all we possess has been freely received from the Hand of God." (Concerning Grace, 1)

St John Climacus (6th century) says "Of the rational beings created by Him and honored with the dignity of free-will, some are His friends, others are His true servants, some are worthless, some are completely estranged from God, and others, though feeble creatures, are His opponents" in the Ladder of Divine Ascent (1.1).

St John of Damascus says in the Exposition of the Catholic Faith that God made man a rational being endowed with free will, and as a result of the fall free will was corrupted (Book chapter 14). Further, he says "We ought to understand that while God knows all things beforehand, yet He does not predetermine all things. For He knows beforehand those things that are in our power, but He does not predetermine them. For it is not His will that there should be wickedness nor does He choose to compel virtue. So that pre-determination is the work of the divine command based on fore-knowledge. But on the other hand God predetermines those things which are not within our power in accordance with His prescience."

St Isaac the Syrian asserts free will clearly when he teaches "It is not the case of the created beings' inheriting the glory to come by compulsion or against the person's will, without any repentance being involved; rather, it so pleased His wisdom that they should choose the good out of the volition of their own free will, and thus have a way of coming to Him" and "The aim of His design is the correction of men; and if it were not that,we should be stripped of the honor of our free will, perhaps He would not even heal us by reproof."

Of course St Maximos the Confessor deals with the will in a systematic way, introducing the gnomic will and so forth. And man has free will, as he notes "If man is the image of the divine nature and if the divine nature is free, so is the image." He also explains "all innovation is manifested in relation to the mode (tropos) of the thing innovated, not its natural principle (logos). The principle, if it undergoes innovation, corrupts the nature, as the nature in that case does not maintain inviolate the principle according to which it exists." In short, our nature as free can exist in a marred mode of existence but our natural reason for being and therefore our end (telos) can never change. By grace and our free will we move from being to well-being to eternal-being.

Building on these, St Gregory Palamas states "God does not decide what men's will shall be. It is not that He foreordains and thus foreknows, but that He foreknows and thus foreordains, and not by His will but by His knowledge of what we shall freely will or choose. Regarding the free choices of men, when we say God foreordains, it is only to signify that His foreknowledge is infallible. To our finite minds it is incomprehensible how God has foreknowledge of our choices and actions without willing or causing them. We make our choices in freedom which God does not violate."

This is why when confronted with Calvisinism in the 1600s the Church flatly rejected it. Dosetheus' Confession says: "We believe man in falling by the [original] transgression to have become comparable and like unto the beasts, that is, to have been utterly undone, and to have fallen from his perfection and impassibility, yet not to have lost the nature and power which he had received from the supremely good God. For otherwise he would not be rational, and consequently not man; but to have the same nature, in which he was created and the same power of his nature, that is free will, living and operating." And therefore the Church pronounced Calvinism a heresy: "But to say, as the most wicked heretics and as is contained in the Chapter answering hereto [i.e., Canons of Dort] - that God, in predestinating, or condemning, had in no wise regard to the works of those predestinated, or condemned, we know to be profane and impious."

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So what's the consensus here? The Apostolic fathers, the early apologists, the Cappadocian fathers, the Latin fathers, the Syrian fathers, the Desert Fathers, the Patriarch of Jerusalem, several of Constantinople, bishops in Alexandria, Antioch, all taught this. Yet Calvin relied almost exclusively on St Augustine (using polemic works against Pelagius) and later medieval scholastics. In other words, Calvin operated independently outside of the patristic consensus - and he freely admits this in his own words.

Read what St Paul says to the Aeropagus: "God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us." He also says that God accepts men "who fear him and do what is right." Man clearly has the capacity to long for God. St Paul tells St Timothy that God our Savior wants "all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth". St Peter writes that God does not will any to perish. If we don't have free will to reject or accept, does He will in vain?

Christ says "May they all be one: as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, so may they also be one in us." Love does not compel, and the inherent freedom of the love of communion with the Trinity is a critical aspect of Christ's Incarnation into two wills. St Isaac the Syrian says "When we have reached love, we have reached God". Love and free will go hand in hand. To deny man's free will is to deny the interpersonal love of the Trinity.
Martin Q. Blank
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I'm not even sure what a non-free will would be.
dds08
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AG
Freedom to obey the Lord.

Freedom to sin.
Zobel
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AG
Not one Calvinist response.
Doc Daneeka
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They are all wrong.

You know who the first "calvinist" was ... which predated John Calvin....

St Augustine... and he predates the schism... why not quote him...

I can compile a list of people. Both sides have numerous adherents.

Edit: didn't read all of it... saw where you acknowledged
Doc Daneeka
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I don't understand how the early church fathers hold more water than the Bible which predates all those listed. The text is plain in Romans 9 and numerous other places. I constantly quote scripture and you quote saints.ill take scripture.

God has wishes and desires that are in the Bible that say things like "the world" and "everyone" and "all". I think to show his character. But then there is Hell.

So wishes and desires are not what necessarily becomes reality. What he wills becomes reality. When talking of salvation, Jesus was explicit. The Father calls people to Jesus. And Jesus raises them (john6:44). There is no "accepting" or "rejecting".

If you claim I am taking one verse out of context, then I would say that the whole catholic and orthodox churches are based on one verse taken out of context...The "keys" verse. The foundation of the church was Peters faith not peter establishing some type of pope-ry line of succession like kings.

It is true the more of the Bible one reads the more Calvinist they become. It is only when they venture out into others' thoughts "about" the Bible where people get notions of being "in control" of their salvation. The story is not about us. That's how we got to this predicament in the first place.
Zobel
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AG
Your doctinre is so scriptural that you have to create a multiplicity of wills in God to justify it. Arrogance aside, that's just bad theology.
Doc Daneeka
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k2aggie07 said:

Your doctinre is so scriptural that you have to create a multiplicity of wills in God to justify it. Arrogance aside, that's just bad theology.


I rebut your assertions. You attack me. Speaks for itself.
Topz
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I certainly think the early fathers of the church believed in free will and they had no choice or will to believe otherwise.
Zobel
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AG
"It is true the more of the Bible one reads the more Calvinist they become"

So nobody read the Bible for 1500 years?

You really think ou have read more scripture than, say St John Chrysostom? You have the whole OT memorized?
Doc Daneeka
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k2aggie07 said:

"It is true the more of the Bible one reads the more Calvinist they become"

So nobody read the Bible for 1500 years?

You really think ou have read more scripture than, say St John Chrysostom? You have the whole OT memorized?


No that was an off hand Comment. I certainly don't know the Bible as well as all of them. But I do know when I stuck to reading the Bible only i became more Calvinist. Which is true of other anecdotal stories I've heard from others similarly situated as myself
Topz
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Doc Daneeka said:

k2aggie07 said:

"It is true the more of the Bible one reads the more Calvinist they become"

So nobody read the Bible for 1500 years?

You really think ou have read more scripture than, say St John Chrysostom? You have the whole OT memorized?


No that was an off hand Comment. I certainly don't know the Bible as well as all of them. But I do know when I stuck to reading the Bible only i became more Calvinist. Which is true of other anecdotal stories I've heard from others similarly situated as myself


I'm shocked that people in your group have similar experiences. I suspect that k2 knows many who only drew closer to orthodox beliefs. I suspect the atheists here know many who found more reading led them to reject the Bible more. I'm sure Mohammed knows people who felt the Koran drew them to his sect.

As a non believer I find this subject somewhat interesting though I don't think I belong in it as the question is not, "do we have free will," but "did some dead guys who are irrelevant to the existence or non existence of free will think it existed."
Zobel
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AG
Then read St Maximos on the gnomic will, his dealing with the mechanics of the will can be appreciated by a secular philosopher. It really is a beautiful exposition.
Topz
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From my secular perspective I don't find anything about mr Maximos gnostic will the least bit compelling or interesting. It seems to be mental gyrations not derived from an observational standpoint but from a need to explain away difficulties within the Christian faith and it's varying propositions. It's heliocentrism for the free will debate though not as well conceived or formed.
Mack Brown on a Mobile
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"I don't understand how the early church fathers hold more water than the Bible which predates all those listed. The text is plain in Romans 9 and numerous other places. I constantly quote scripture and you quote saints.ill take scripture."

Totally agree. K2 loves to argue church fathers/Church tradition, but it is what is in the scriptures that should matter.
Martin Q. Blank
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k2, can you explain to me what a non-free will would be? What is the will? In what way do the people you quoted say it is free? In what way do Calvinists say it is not free?
dermdoc
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AG
aggiemike said:

"I don't understand how the early church fathers hold more water than the Bible which predates all those listed. The text is plain in Romans 9 and numerous other places. I constantly quote scripture and you quote saints.ill take scripture."

Totally agree. K2 loves to argue church fathers/Church tradition, but it is what is in the scriptures that should matter.
With all due respect, the Church fathers are interpreting the same Scripture you are. Just differently. And that is what this all comes down to. Different interpretation of the exact same Scripture. This has been going on since the beginning of the Reformation and probably before. I might add, everyone is convinced they are right which of course leads to the divisions we have today.
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Zobel
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This thread is dealing with a very specific topic. Calvin was well aware of the importance of framing his theology as orthodox, and not novel. The Reformers were always extremely careful to do so, because they knew that a novel theology cannot be true on the face of it - novel theology, secret wisdom, correction of the Apostles, etc., is always the hallmark of gnosticism or other heresies.

Calvin justified his novel theology by claiming that this was an ambiguous topic in the writings of the fathers. He didn't say "what the fathers say doesn't matter" or "they're all wrong" -- his humility clearly surpassed some posters here -- but instead "what they write is unclear".

I do know that Calvin did not have access to the depth of patristic literature that we do today, so perhaps what he was able to read wasn't clear. I doubt this, because he notes St John Chrysostom specifically as a strong defender of free will (and St John does, repeatedly, emphasize that people are condemned by their own will).

The question addressed here is can the reformers claims to authentic patristic witness or at least not violating the writings of the fathers, as represented by Calvin in his own words, hold up to scrutiny?

And the answer is clearly no. If Calvin couldn't grasp the consensus of the fathers, this was because he either didn't have the writings or finding his personal opinion outside of the consensus he did not want to.

At no time have I claimed that the writings of the fathers supersedes scripture. Instead, they enlighten us to scripture, they act as witnesses to the Church's interpretation of scripture in their time. And when we see an unbroken chain of interpretation stretching over millennia, we can be assured that this is a trustworthy belief.
Zobel
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AG
Calvinists say - and this is a broad brush, because there's variants - that man's will was so tarnished in the fall that he was no longer free at all. You'll see them say "dead men can't choose" or claim that man can choose but only choose from bad. Or even, strangely, that doing good, man sins because his reasons are bad.

For example, they would say that even as Jesus stood before St Paul and said, "Saul, Saul, it is hard for you to kick against the goads" St Paul could not make the choice to be obedient. That God had to regenerate his heart in order for him to believe.

The fathers position is that man's free will is a product of being created in the divine image, and is therefore essential to our nature as man. If we are no longer free, we are no longer man. So while we are born with the capacity to do both good and evil (like Adam, we have knowledge of both) our flesh is at war with our soul, and we have a split mind; we desire things in opposition to God, and so we sin. The more we sin the worse it gets, like a disease. But at no point do we completely lose the knowledge of good and evil or the ability to choose between them.

Both sides agree that the fall damaged our nature. The disagreement here is to what extent.
Martin Q. Blank
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"Calvinists say", but what does Calvin say? Or at least the Reformers? You go to great lengths to quote church Fathers, why not do the same for Calvinists?

What is the will? How is it free and not free according to Calvin? How does this differ from the people you quoted? I don't see how someone can say a person cannot choose. That's absurd.
7thGenTexan
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AG
k2aggie07 said:

This thread is dealing with a very specific topic. Calvin was well aware of the importance of framing his theology as orthodox, and not novel. The Reformers were always extremely careful to do so, because they knew that a novel theology cannot be true on the face of it - novel theology, secret wisdom, correction of the Apostles, etc., is always the hallmark of gnosticism or other heresies.

Calvin justified his novel theology by claiming that this was an ambiguous topic in the writings of the fathers. He didn't say "what the fathers say doesn't matter" or "they're all wrong" -- his humility clearly surpassed some posters here -- but instead "what they write is unclear".

I do know that Calvin did not have access to the depth of patristic literature that we do today, so perhaps what he was able to read wasn't clear. I doubt this, because he notes St John Chrysostom specifically as a strong defender of free will (and St John does, repeatedly, emphasize that people are condemned by their own will).

The question addressed here is can the reformers claims to authentic patristic witness or at least not violating the writings of the fathers, as represented by Calvin in his own words, hold up to scrutiny?

And the answer is clearly no. If Calvin couldn't grasp the consensus of the fathers, this was because he either didn't have the writings or finding his personal opinion outside of the consensus he did not want to.

At no time have I claimed that the writings of the fathers supersedes scripture. Instead, they enlighten us to scripture, they act as witnesses to the Church's interpretation of scripture in their time. And when we see an unbroken chain of interpretation stretching over millennia, we can be assured that this is a trustworthy belief.


I'm guessing they care more about scripture than what Calvin said too.
dermdoc
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AG
Agree. But it comes down to their interpretation of Scripture as opposed to mine. Or K2's. Or the Church Fathers. Or every non Calvinist believer.

The problem becomes the division which to me is not Christ like. Both sides are convinced they are right. Just like on here. Calvinists can truly not believe that anyone can read Romans 9 or Ephesians 2 and not agree with them.
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Zobel
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Calvinism encompasses teachings that are both from Calvin and beyond him -- so you see the Canons of Dort, the Westminster Confessions, the Heidelberg Catechism and so on expressing variants of Reformed theology, i.e., "Calvinism". So you're asking me to write a book. I would rather study truth than errors.

However, I will copy and paste some quotes.

Calvin writes

Quote:

"Here I only want to suggest briefly that the whole man is overwhelmedas by a delugefrom head to foot, so that no part is immune from sin and all that proceeds from him is to be imputed to sin (Institutes 2.1.9)
and

Quote:

"Therefore, though all of us are by nature suffering from the same disease, only those whom it pleases the Lord to touch with his healing hand will get well. The others, whom he, in his righteous judgment, passes over, waste away in their own rottenness until they are consumed. There is no other reason why some persevere to the end, while others fall at the beginning of the course. For perseverance itself is indeed also a gift of God, which he does not bestow on all indiscriminately, but imparts to whom he pleases. If one seeks the reason for the differencewhy some steadfastly persevered, and others fail out of instabilitynone occurs to us other than that the Lord upholds the former, strengthening them by his own power, that they may not perish; while to the latter, that they may be examples of inconstancy, he does not impart the same power (Institutes 2.5.3).
He also says
Quote:

"We call predestination God's eternal decree, which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is foreordained for some, eternal damnation for others." (Institutes 3.21.5) and continues "We assert that, with respect to the elect, this plan was founded upon his freely given mercy, without regard to human worth; but by his just and irreprehensible but incomprehensible judgment he has barred to door of life to those whom he has given over to damnation. (Institutes 3.21.7)

The Canons of Dort say

Quote:

"Therefore all men are conceived in sin, and are by nature children of wrath, incapable of saving good, prone to evil, dead in sin, and in bondage thereto; and without the regenerating grace of the Holy Spirit, they are neither able nor willing to return to God, to reform the depravity of their nature, or to dispose themselves to reformation." (Third and Fourth Head: Article 3)


They also say
Quote:

"That some receive the gift of faith from God, and other do not receive it, proceeds from God's eternal decree"
and

Quote:

"...it was the will of God that Christ by the blood of the cross, whereby He confirmed the new covenant, should effectually redeem out of every people, tribe, nation, and language, all those, and those only, who were from eternity chosen to salvation and given to Him by the Father (Second Head: Article 8).
This is not the historic teaching of the Church. Some of it is separated only by nuance, some of it is the product of frame of reference or definition of terms, but some of it is in flat-out direct opposition.
Martin Q. Blank
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Thanks. I will read those, but none of them discussed the human will. What it is and how it's not free. Only this quote from the Canons of Dort:

Quote:

they are neither able nor willing to return to God, to reform the depravity of their nature, or to dispose themselves to reformation.
A man who is not willing to return to God is exactly that...not willing. He has a will and chooses not to return to God. How can someone say that Calvinists don't believe in free will?
7thGenTexan
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AG
Quote:

. So you're asking me to write a book. I would rather study truth than errors.


You were discussing the lack of humility of the resident Calvinists.
Zobel
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AG
"all that proceeds from him is to be imputed to sin" means that no matter the choice, man chooses sinfully. This is an implicit denial of free will.

Calvin says there is no reason other than God that some persevere - man has no choice in the matter, and God drops some from persevering as an example. He says that God barred the door to life to some. This is not free will. This is puppetry.

You bolded the wrong word - they say neither able nor willing. So they are not able to return to God, nor are they willing, even to dispose themselves to reformation. Meaning, when God tells people to repent, they can't, unless He makes them. Even if they want to dispose themselves, to fall on mercy, they can't. They can't even ask for mercy, because they are not willing or able to dispose themselves to God. This is a denial of the freedom of the will.

They believe, at best, that man has a free will to choose only bad. But that's not freedom.
Zobel
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AG
Why would I spend my time studying in detail the theology of a tradition that formed outside of the Church and is, in many ways, in opposition to my faith? When I was agnostic I read a lot of Reformed and Lutheran stuff. I grew up Baptist, so I'm intimately familiar with their theology. Now that I am Orthodox, why would I spend a ton of time compiling quotes that I believe are in error? Particularly when an Orthodox council has already condemned this as a heresy?

I don't think that's a lack of humility.
Martin Q. Blank
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k2aggie07 said:

"all that proceeds from him is to be imputed to sin" means that no matter the choice, man chooses sinfully. This is an implicit denial of free will.

Calvin says there is no reason other than God that some persevere - man has no choice in the matter, and God drops some from persevering as an example. He says that God barred the door to life to some. This is not free will. This is puppetry.

You bolded the wrong word - they say neither able nor willing. So they are not able to return to God, nor are they willing, even to dispose themselves to reformation. Meaning, when God tells people to repent, they can't, unless He makes them. Even if they want to dispose themselves, to fall on mercy, they can't. They can't even ask for mercy, because they are not willing or able to dispose themselves to God. This is a denial of the freedom of the will.

They believe, at best, that man has a free will to choose only bad. But that's not freedom.
I bolded the word we are discussing. "This is a denial of the freedom of the will." No, that is a denial of the freedom of ability. Why did the Canons of Dort distinguish between ability and the will?

So I ask again, what is the will? Seems we're assuming a definition that came after Calvin and the church fathers, like Hume or Locke. God "making" someone repent seems to destroy it. Did God bar the door to someone willing to repent?
Doc Daneeka
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k2aggie07 said:

"all that proceeds from him is to be imputed to sin" means that no matter the choice, man chooses sinfully. This is an implicit denial of free will.

Calvin says there is no reason other than God that some persevere - man has no choice in the matter, and God drops some from persevering as an example. He says that God barred the door to life to some. This is not free will. This is puppetry.

You bolded the wrong word - they say neither able nor willing. So they are not able to return to God, nor are they willing, even to dispose themselves to reformation. Meaning, when God tells people to repent, they can't, unless He makes them. Even if they want to dispose themselves, to fall on mercy, they can't. They can't even ask for mercy, because they are not willing or able to dispose themselves to God. This is a denial of the freedom of the will.

They believe, at best, that man has a free will to choose only bad. But that's not freedom.


I would say that is a solid description of it. Except we are ABLE to choose Christ but only after we are called. But yes, unless we are called we are unwilling AND unable to choose Christ.
Doc Daneeka
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No one is willing to repent unless God called them
Martin Q. Blank
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Doc Daneeka said:

No one is willing to repent unless God called them
That still does not destroy their will. It assumes it is intact.
Doc Daneeka
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Yea that's true. I guess it wouldn't be "free" according to k2.
Jack Boyett
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AG
k2aggie07 said:

"It is true the more of the Bible one reads the more Calvinist they become"

So nobody read the Bible for 1500 years?

You really think ou have read more scripture than, say St John Chrysostom? You have the whole OT memorized?
I also became more calvinistic as i read the bible through multiple times. I've never once heard free will questioned at church. It's just thrown out there as accepted fact. There is definitely another side that deserves some discussion.

I would say forget what theology says and look at how it works in practice. If God does not place you into a Christian influence at an early age, your chances of free willing yourself into Christianity are almost zero. That's really all you need to see.
Zobel
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AG
That's actually a very good question, and is a point that would clarify. As you can see above, some Calvinists just flatly deny man has any role in salvation at all, and is nothing but a marionette on God's strings. Their desire is to emphasize God's sovereignty and utter goodness and power, which is good and piously motivated, but they do so at the expense of both love and freedom. And to do so they have to convolute and do violence to the scripture,

The will is a bit of a vague term, and can mean the process of desire or the action of choosing, and even the ultimate outcome.

"I would.... but nevertheless my decision is...I willed for this to happen..." etc.

This is the distinction the Church sees between the human will of Christ and ours. His will is what is proper to our nature, and lacks the necessity of deliberation caused by the confusion or lack of clarity to distinguish the Good, to understand God's will.

Our natural will, our ability to will is related to what we are in our essence (our ousia in Greek). Our capacity to will, how we will, is related to who we our in our person (our unique hypostasis). In our person, we deliberate between desires, and our desires naturally ought to be inline with Gods, but as we are fallen they are not. So the act of our deliberation is at war with ourselves (cf Galations 5:17, Romans 7:23). But even this doesn't suggest that we lose that war, every single time.

Christ shares the human will, because He shares our human nature completely. But He doesn't deliberate, or isn't troubled by deliberation, because His hypostasis, His personhood, is not marred by sin.

So our capacity to will is retained; how we will is damaged; the resulting actions are influenced. But nowhere in the scriptures can we definitely say that our gnomic will or the act of deliberating is completely one-sided and always chooses wrongly and can't even want or recognize good as possible decisions.
Zobel
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AG
And again. Written as a series of claims "neither able nor willing means"

Man is not able to return to God
AND
Man is not willing to return to God

These are two claims, independently applied to man.

Even if we take that man is not willing for the sake of discussion, I reject than he is not able to dispose himself to reformation prior to regeneration. In essence, what we're saying here is that before a person is regenerated, i.e., becomes a Christian, is in-dwelt with the Holy Spirit, he is unable to dispose Himself to accept that same grace.

The only way this is acceptable in any way is if we say that God offers this grace to all men. In which case, everything is fine, and I'm all good with it. But this is the point they deny.
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