Even I admit that the Holdo/Poe dynamic was one of the most eye-rolling and at times even infuriating examples of "Hollywood" taking this woke stuff too far. But instead of ranting and raving about "SJWs" and the "libs" or whatever, I've tried as best I can to calmly explain why that dynamic bugs me, and have genuinely tried to understand Johnson's motivations, etc. Which is all I'm asking anyone else to do before "going off" on TLJ and similar situations.
Disney Star Wars fans, I laugh at your pain.
17,859 Views |
237 Replies |
Last: 4 yr ago by Duncan Idaho
I think you might find others who think that the rise of Trump was a reaction to the culture the left in this country created. Trump ran for president before and failed, he didn't spring up overnight and instantly create this culture. His rise is a symptom of our consistently degrading culture, as are people on Hollywood's far left.Quote:
That said, Hollywood didn't just one day decide, "Oh, hey, let's be even more woke" for the hell of it. It's a response to a culture they feel Trump is responsible for cultivating. And fair or not, he does nothing to quell their fears
If it is fair that movies/entertainment have these political messages in them, movies that people pay money to see just to be entertained by, then it is most certainly fair that these be open to discussion. Discussion doesn't need to be nasty, but by the same token, it doesn't need to be shut down either.Quote:
And frankly I believe it's fair game for this board and not just F16.
I agree. Which is why I don't feel the need to go to war on this board every time I see something in a movie I don't like.TCTTS said:
Even I admit that the Holdo/Poe dynamic was one of the most eye-rolling and at times even infuriating examples of "Hollywood" taking this woke stuff too far. But instead of ranting and raving about "SJWs" and the "libs" or whatever, I've tried as best I can to calmly explain in why that dynamic bugs me, and have genuinely tried to understand Johnson's motivations, etc. Which is all I'm asking anyone else to do before "going off" on TLJ and similar situations.
No one was upset Haldo (Female) was in some authority position and Poe (male) couldn't handle it.Dekker_Lentz said:
Man this thread turned.
Here let's get it back on track.
How would people feel if they had taken everything Holdo did and had then been Leia's arc. Would there have been the same backlash?
Poe would still have the same story and he would arguing Leia is over the hill. Would people still be as upset?
The only change I would make is instead of Mary Poppins Leia, they stuck with the original idea that the bridge started to explode and Leia held it together. Then during the hyperspace jump destroying the FO ships, imply she towed into the force to make the attack more powerful.
I think the biggest mistake Disney made was trying to have the original actors.
It's obvious in TFA and TLJ that Poe respects and admires Leia a great deal so that narrative just doesn't float.
People were upset b/c Haldo's character was TERRIBLE. She was poorly introduced, had zero back story at all, and
Hell, if she just tells Poe (you know, a leader) the plan, the hole Rose (another poorly written character) story never occurs and the Resistance is saved.
This whole "men/boys" can't accept women as leaders in SW is such bunk. No one complained one bit about Leah being a hero in 1977, or Mon Montha being the leader of the Rebellion in 1983 and there was a hell of a lot more misogyny 40-years ago then now. It's a crappy excuse to shout down legitimate criticism of a terrible movie.
IMO the SJW criticism of TLJ is really just more piling on a bad movie. If TLJ had been any where near ESB in terms of story, most would have ignored any SJW commentary and just enjoyed the movie.
I think TFA is a great SW movie for the first hour. New characters you like instantly, new bad guys you don't like, fun, action, comedy..etc. It does fall short with the recycled super weapon and Rey suddenly knowing how to use a lightsaber, but it was still a fun SW movie.
Sarduakar said:
Think about the 4 main male characters in the Last Jedi and there interactions with the women.
Finn, a coward that needs Rose to convince him to stand up and do something
Poe, a hot head that needs purple Admiral to reel him in and teach him a lesson about what is "right"
Luke, a hermit that has abandoned the Force and needs Rey to convince him to do something.
Kylo, the actual bad guy whom I am still convinced will be redeemed in some manner by Rey in IX
Yeah, it's pretty blatant and in-your-face, to a ridiculous degree.
Reading this post, though, kind of helped me realize why I say what I say on this board and defend what I defend, and all the confusion and accusations that sometimes comes from that. Because, at its core, I'm all for the basic sentiment. I *do* think there needs to be more representation in film. I think we need more female and minority leads, representation, etc. Not because I hate white men (I *am* one), but because I see how much it means to people who aren't white males to see themselves represented on the screen in a way we've enjoyed and often taken for granted for a 100 years now. So I try to defend that, but I'm left defending a "Hollywood" that has run with that sentiment to an overly-aggressive degree, and I'm defending it from certain group here who, themselves, have a tendency to speak in absolutes on the opposite end, where it comes across as if they're sexist or racist, even though I don't think they are.
It's two sides who are reacting poorly to a situation, and I'm kind of stuck in the middle trying to defend an ideal but not the actions of a group from another group who rightfully believes they're being attacked, but may not be the best at being able to react in a way that doesn't make them appear as bigots, even though they're not. It's just a ****ty situation and cycle, more than anything, that I'm trying to rail against.
Only Sith speak in absolutesTCTTS said:
I'm defending it from certain group here who, themselves, have a tendency to speak in absolutes
agracer said:No one was upset Haldo (Female) was in some authority position and Poe (male) couldn't handle it.Dekker_Lentz said:
Man this thread turned.
Here let's get it back on track.
How would people feel if they had taken everything Holdo did and had then been Leia's arc. Would there have been the same backlash?
Poe would still have the same story and he would arguing Leia is over the hill. Would people still be as upset?
The only change I would make is instead of Mary Poppins Leia, they stuck with the original idea that the bridge started to explode and Leia held it together. Then during the hyperspace jump destroying the FO ships, imply she towed into the force to make the attack more powerful.
I think the biggest mistake Disney made was trying to have the original actors.
It's obvious in TFA and TLJ that Poe respects and admires Leia a great deal so that narrative just doesn't float.
People were upset b/c Haldo's character was TERRIBLE. She was poorly introduced, had zero back story at all, andgenerallysucked as a leader. It had absolutely nothing to do with her being a woman. If she'd been a man with purple hair, critics would be saying the same thing.
Hell, if she just tells Poe (you know, a leader) the plan, the hole Rose (another poorly written character) story never occurs and the Resistance is saved.
This whole "men/boys" can't accept women as leaders in SW is such bunk. No one complained one bit about Leah being a hero in 1977, or Mon Montha being the leader of the Rebellion in 1983 and there was a hell of a lot more misogyny 40-years ago then now. It's a crappy excuse to shout down legitimate criticism of a terrible movie.
IMO the SJW criticism of TLJ is really just more piling on a bad movie. If TLJ had been any where near ESB in terms of story, most would have ignored any SJW commentary and just enjoyed the movie.
I think TFA is a great SW movie for the first hour. New characters you like instantly, new bad guys you don't like, fun, action, comedy..etc. It does fall short with the recycled super weapon and Rey suddenly knowing how to use a lightsaber, but it was still a fun SW movie.
I'm not taking the heat off of Johnson AT ALL - there are dozens of other ways he could have taken TLJ - but reading this reiterates for me that the reason Johnson even had the freedom to do what he did is because none of this was planned out from the get-go. If the arcs of Rey, Finn, Poe, and even Kylo had been planned - like any other story - and more effectively setup in TFA, we wouldn't be in this mess. But Finn and Poe, especially, had NOWHERE to go after TFA. Poe was just kind of sort of "cocky" but not really, and Finn's arc was seemingly complete. So I get why Johnson had to try and make more from the kernels he was given. Characters need arcs - it's the entire point of storytelling - so I get how he could find the ONE thing that maybe defined Poe - "He's, uh... cocky, I guess" - and then try to make an arc out of that. And I get how maybe Finn was like 95% committed to the Resistance at the end of TFA, so Johnson basically had to resort to a re-do of his arc in the first movie to get him to 100%. Johnson just chose the lamest, preachiest way to get there, and that's HIS mistake. But if Kennedy and Abrams would have better-planned, and better-executed the character arcs from day one, Johnson wouldn't have even had the leeway to do what he did. It's just a sh*tty situation all around.
We can play chicken or the egg all day long, for the entirety of this country's existence. And that's kind of the point. It's all a reaction to something that came before, and just keeps getting more and more ridiculous, in terms of rhetoric from both sides.Belton Ag said:I think you might find others who think that the rise of Trump was a reaction to the culture the left in this country created. Trump ran for president before and failed, he didn't spring up overnight and instantly create this culture. His rise is a symptom of our consistently degrading culture, as are people on Hollywood's far left.Quote:
That said, Hollywood didn't just one day decide, "Oh, hey, let's be even more woke" for the hell of it. It's a response to a culture they feel Trump is responsible for cultivating. And fair or not, he does nothing to quell their fears
agracer said:No one was upset Haldo (Female) was in some authority position and Poe (male) couldn't handle it.Dekker_Lentz said:
Man this thread turned.
Here let's get it back on track.
How would people feel if they had taken everything Holdo did and had then been Leia's arc. Would there have been the same backlash?
Poe would still have the same story and he would arguing Leia is over the hill. Would people still be as upset?
The only change I would make is instead of Mary Poppins Leia, they stuck with the original idea that the bridge started to explode and Leia held it together. Then during the hyperspace jump destroying the FO ships, imply she towed into the force to make the attack more powerful.
I think the biggest mistake Disney made was trying to have the original actors.
It's obvious in TFA and TLJ that Poe respects and admires Leia a great deal so that narrative just doesn't float.
People were upset b/c Haldo's character was TERRIBLE. She was poorly introduced, had zero back story at all, andgenerallysucked as a leader. It had absolutely nothing to do with her being a woman. If she'd been a man with purple hair, critics would be saying the same thing.
I don't necessarily agree with your points. But I didn't necessarily get from TFA that Poe had any thoughts about Leia. And in TLJ they have Poe and Leia have an odd dynamic where he respects her, but for her decision to trust Holdo.
Essentially, Poe as TCTTS said he is the cocky pilot. They could easily have made the same story that with Leia instead of Holdo. Holdo is superfluous to the story because other characters can serve the same function. Hell, they probably could have tightened up the story and had Poe sacrifice himself to save the fleet.
Still my biggest issue with 7, 8, and 9 is that they wasted the original trilogy characters.
I don't disagree.TCTTS said:We can play chicken or the egg all day long, for the entirety of this country's existence. And that's kind of the point. It's all a reaction to something that came before, and just keeps getting more and more ridiculous, in terms of rhetoric from both sides.Belton Ag said:I think you might find others who think that the rise of Trump was a reaction to the culture the left in this country created. Trump ran for president before and failed, he didn't spring up overnight and instantly create this culture. His rise is a symptom of our consistently degrading culture, as are people on Hollywood's far left.Quote:
That said, Hollywood didn't just one day decide, "Oh, hey, let's be even more woke" for the hell of it. It's a response to a culture they feel Trump is responsible for cultivating. And fair or not, he does nothing to quell their fears
Hello there.
Can we now talk about how most of you overrate the attractiveness of Daisy Ridley?
Can we now talk about how most of you overrate the attractiveness of Daisy Ridley?
TCTTS said:We can play chicken or the egg all day long, for the entirety of this country's existence. And that's kind of the point. It's all a reaction to something that came before, and just keeps getting more and more ridiculous, in terms of rhetoric from both sides.Belton Ag said:I think you might find others who think that the rise of Trump was a reaction to the culture the left in this country created. Trump ran for president before and failed, he didn't spring up overnight and instantly create this culture. His rise is a symptom of our consistently degrading culture, as are people on Hollywood's far left.Quote:
That said, Hollywood didn't just one day decide, "Oh, hey, let's be even more woke" for the hell of it. It's a response to a culture they feel Trump is responsible for cultivating. And fair or not, he does nothing to quell their fears
Hey, take it to the politics board. We're trying to discuss movies here.
Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.
Steve McQueen
Steve McQueen
YouBet said:
Hello there.
Can we now talk about how most of you overrate the attractiveness of Daisy Ridley?
People do this with all Star Wars related things. It goes back to the first. Leia was unattractive
edit.
Wrong emoticon
Nvm. Not worth it
YouBet said:
Hello there.
Can we now talk about how most of you overrate the attractiveness of Daisy Ridley?
Here's my theory.
Dude's like her because she looks attainable. She has an okay face and the body of a 12 year old girl.
Scarlett Johansson? Clearly out of most guys league. Olivia Mond? Amber Heard? Alexandra Anna Daddario (my favorite)?
Not
A
Chance
But Daisey Ridley? Yeah, I could see her playing clarinet in the high school band. Fairly attainable.
Alexandra Anna Daddario
Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.
Steve McQueen
Steve McQueen
So let me understand your logic. Those who find Daisy Ridley attractive... don't also find La Daddario attractive?PaulSimonsGhost said:YouBet said:
Hello there.
Can we now talk about how most of you overrate the attractiveness of Daisy Ridley?
Here's my theory.
Dude's like her because she looks attainable. She has an okay face and the body of a 12 year old girl.
Scarlett Johansson? Clearly out of most guys league. Olivia Mond? Amber Heard? Alexandra Anna Daddario (my favorite)?
Not
A
Chance
But Daisey Ridley? Yeah, I could see her playing clarinet in the high school band. Fairly attainable.
Alexandra Anna Daddario
Because... reasons?
No, no. Everybody finds Daddario hot. She's universally ****able. My theory is the reason guys find Ridley a "smoke show", as somebody said it earlier, is because she's attainable.
Because dudes could somehow see it happening with her if they were maybe locked in a closet together while bank robbers held them hostage.
The possibility, no matter how remote, makes her more desirable. Fantasy, to be truly exciting, has to have some anchor in reality. Even if it's a faint possibility, it's the possibility that peaks arousal.
Ridley's plainness makes her more attractive to some because "maybe".
The girl next door will always be sexually exciting to the majority b/c you think you might actually get to **** Ridley.
Because dudes could somehow see it happening with her if they were maybe locked in a closet together while bank robbers held them hostage.
The possibility, no matter how remote, makes her more desirable. Fantasy, to be truly exciting, has to have some anchor in reality. Even if it's a faint possibility, it's the possibility that peaks arousal.
Ridley's plainness makes her more attractive to some because "maybe".
The girl next door will always be sexually exciting to the majority b/c you think you might actually get to **** Ridley.
Racing is life. Anything before or after is just waiting.
Steve McQueen
Steve McQueen
This is top tier cringe level. (And that's saying a lot for this board)
YouBet said:
Hello there.
He's not wrong. Star Wars **** the bed with TLJ on an epic level. There really isn't any way ROS is going to pull it together.
Wow...where this thread went!
Make Mental Asylums Great Again!
If there is anything people should be mad about on this thread, it is this bold section. How the **** do you not know how to spell her name.agracer said:No one was upset Haldo (Female) was in some authority position and Poe (male) couldn't handle it.Dekker_Lentz said:
Man this thread turned.
Here let's get it back on track.
How would people feel if they had taken everything Holdo did and had then been Leia's arc. Would there have been the same backlash?
Poe would still have the same story and he would arguing Leia is over the hill. Would people still be as upset?
The only change I would make is instead of Mary Poppins Leia, they stuck with the original idea that the bridge started to explode and Leia held it together. Then during the hyperspace jump destroying the FO ships, imply she towed into the force to make the attack more powerful.
I think the biggest mistake Disney made was trying to have the original actors.
It's obvious in TFA and TLJ that Poe respects and admires Leia a great deal so that narrative just doesn't float.
People were upset b/c Haldo's character was TERRIBLE. She was poorly introduced, had zero back story at all, andgenerallysucked as a leader. It had absolutely nothing to do with her being a woman. If she'd been a man with purple hair, critics would be saying the same thing.
Hell, if she just tells Poe (you know, a leader) the plan, the hole Rose (another poorly written character) story never occurs and the Resistance is saved.
This whole "men/boys" can't accept women as leaders in SW is such bunk. No one complained one bit about Leah being a hero in 1977, or Mon Montha being the leader of the Rebellion in 1983 and there was a hell of a lot more misogyny 40-years ago then now. It's a crappy excuse to shout down legitimate criticism of a terrible movie.
IMO the SJW criticism of TLJ is really just more piling on a bad movie. If TLJ had been any where near ESB in terms of story, most would have ignored any SJW commentary and just enjoyed the movie.
I think TFA is a great SW movie for the first hour. New characters you like instantly, new bad guys you don't like, fun, action, comedy..etc. It does fall short with the recycled super weapon and Rey suddenly knowing how to use a lightsaber, but it was still a fun SW movie.
PaulSimonsGhost said:
Alexandra Anna Daddario
So, the first time I remember seeing Daddario was when I took my nephew to see Percy Jackson. The whole time I remember thinking this chick is extremely hot, but then, her role was to play someone younger so I felt nervous/uncomfortable the whole time that I was going to find out she was 16 or something. I was relieved to later find out she was only a couple of years younger than me, so I'm not a total creep.
Dark Vader!wangus12 said:If there is anything people should be mad about on this thread, it is this bold section. How the **** do you not know how to spell her name.agracer said:No one was upset Haldo (Female) was in some authority position and Poe (male) couldn't handle it.Dekker_Lentz said:
Man this thread turned.
Here let's get it back on track.
How would people feel if they had taken everything Holdo did and had then been Leia's arc. Would there have been the same backlash?
Poe would still have the same story and he would arguing Leia is over the hill. Would people still be as upset?
The only change I would make is instead of Mary Poppins Leia, they stuck with the original idea that the bridge started to explode and Leia held it together. Then during the hyperspace jump destroying the FO ships, imply she towed into the force to make the attack more powerful.
I think the biggest mistake Disney made was trying to have the original actors.
It's obvious in TFA and TLJ that Poe respects and admires Leia a great deal so that narrative just doesn't float.
People were upset b/c Haldo's character was TERRIBLE. She was poorly introduced, had zero back story at all, andgenerallysucked as a leader. It had absolutely nothing to do with her being a woman. If she'd been a man with purple hair, critics would be saying the same thing.
Hell, if she just tells Poe (you know, a leader) the plan, the hole Rose (another poorly written character) story never occurs and the Resistance is saved.
This whole "men/boys" can't accept women as leaders in SW is such bunk. No one complained one bit about Leah being a hero in 1977, or Mon Montha being the leader of the Rebellion in 1983 and there was a hell of a lot more misogyny 40-years ago then now. It's a crappy excuse to shout down legitimate criticism of a terrible movie.
IMO the SJW criticism of TLJ is really just more piling on a bad movie. If TLJ had been any where near ESB in terms of story, most would have ignored any SJW commentary and just enjoyed the movie.
I think TFA is a great SW movie for the first hour. New characters you like instantly, new bad guys you don't like, fun, action, comedy..etc. It does fall short with the recycled super weapon and Rey suddenly knowing how to use a lightsaber, but it was still a fun SW movie.
yeah I knew it was wrong when I hit post and fixed it once but missed the second...wangus12 said:If there is anything people should be mad about on this thread, it is this bold section. How the **** do you not know how to spell her name.agracer said:No one was upset Haldo (Female) was in some authority position and Poe (male) couldn't handle it.Dekker_Lentz said:
Man this thread turned.
Here let's get it back on track.
How would people feel if they had taken everything Holdo did and had then been Leia's arc. Would there have been the same backlash?
Poe would still have the same story and he would arguing Leia is over the hill. Would people still be as upset?
The only change I would make is instead of Mary Poppins Leia, they stuck with the original idea that the bridge started to explode and Leia held it together. Then during the hyperspace jump destroying the FO ships, imply she towed into the force to make the attack more powerful.
I think the biggest mistake Disney made was trying to have the original actors.
It's obvious in TFA and TLJ that Poe respects and admires Leia a great deal so that narrative just doesn't float.
People were upset b/c Haldo's character was TERRIBLE. She was poorly introduced, had zero back story at all, andgenerallysucked as a leader. It had absolutely nothing to do with her being a woman. If she'd been a man with purple hair, critics would be saying the same thing.
Hell, if she just tells Poe (you know, a leader) the plan, the hole Rose (another poorly written character) story never occurs and the Resistance is saved.
This whole "men/boys" can't accept women as leaders in SW is such bunk. No one complained one bit about Leah being a hero in 1977, or Mon Montha being the leader of the Rebellion in 1983 and there was a hell of a lot more misogyny 40-years ago then now. It's a crappy excuse to shout down legitimate criticism of a terrible movie.
IMO the SJW criticism of TLJ is really just more piling on a bad movie. If TLJ had been any where near ESB in terms of story, most would have ignored any SJW commentary and just enjoyed the movie.
I think TFA is a great SW movie for the first hour. New characters you like instantly, new bad guys you don't like, fun, action, comedy..etc. It does fall short with the recycled super weapon and Rey suddenly knowing how to use a lightsaber, but it was still a fun SW movie.
Glad I was not the only person that felt like that during Percy Jackson lolCJS4715 said:PaulSimonsGhost said:
Alexandra Anna Daddario
So, the first time I remember seeing Daddario was when I took my nephew to see Percy Jackson. The whole time I remember thinking this chick is extremely hot, but then, her role was to play someone younger so I felt nervous/uncomfortable the whole time that I was going to find out she was 16 or something. I was relieved to later find out she was only a couple of years younger than me, so I'm not a total creep.
I just want to go on record as always having g a problem with mon mothma.
She did a great job of capturing the inability of women to effectively lead large organizations of high performance individuals
She did a great job of capturing the inability of women to effectively lead large organizations of high performance individuals
Featured Stories
See All
75:27
18h ago
7.5k
No. 13 A&M a 'go-for-launch' as 2024-25 opens on the road in Orlando
by Luke Evangelist
Keys to the Game: No. 13 Texas A&M at UCF
by Luke Evangelist
Scouting Report: Texas A&M at Central Florida
by Tom Schuberth