That would be icing on the cake to this whole theory if they chose to go this route

jokershady said:

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That would be icing on the cake to this whole theory if they chose to go this route

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And then the movie ends with whoever Kylo's apprentice is coming out of hiding.

jokershady said:

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bobinator said:

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Okay, I suppose I could see that... but I'd think she would have been created at the same time as Anakin. Like when the dark side force user used the force to create a life, he didn't realize he was actually creating two lives and that somewhere else a second child was born.

I could see it though I guess.

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Yup. That is the one flaw with this idea. My only thought behind that is that it was not immediately known what kind of force user Anikan was going to be.

Before he turned, Anikan did a lot of good for the Republic.

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The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see the future is.

I like it TCTTS.

But what about this. If a dark side user caused the birth of Anakin to create balance ( in his mind only 2 or a few light and dark side users. ) But Luke realizes this in his travels search for this and starts out to "right " the wrong. ie the creation of his Anakin. LUKE uses the force just like plagueis but does things different or think he failed but Rey is still born. Then Luke is her father but not her father

I REALLY like that. That said, if so, I feel like he would have acted differently to Rey on the island. He seemed to show zero indication that she could be his "creation."

Yeah but maybe he didn't think it worked and thus doesn't realize Rey is his "creation" and only finds this out as a blue glowie.

So Kylo has to let himself die because he's the final Horcrux?

I'm kidding. I actually kind of like this except for the fact that the force decided to create Rey like 30 years after Plagueis created Anakin? Why?

But also, again, I don't see what any of this would have to do with the plot of next movie, unless the goal is just to retroactively make the previous movies make more sense.

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I actually kind of like this except for the fact that the force decided to create Rey like 30 years after Plagueis created Anakin? Why?

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Because Luke was the stop-gap/hope as Anakin was rising to power. Rey wasn't created to kill Anakin. She would have been created to stop Plagueis/Snoke (who would have emerged again around the time she was born.) However, free will and all, Kylo ended up doing just that, but in the process, basically took the place of of Plagueis/Snoke as the entity Rey needed to "balance"/kill.

At least that would be my explanation.

I could buy that, I guess.

I still want to know why Lor San Tekka just happens to be near where Rey was dropped.

I just feel like this could make sense but that's adding A LOT of narrative background that doesn't impact the current events at all.

When Rey was born there was hardly any dark side at all. We don't know exactly how old she is, but Luke was training a new generation of Jedi, including another Skywalker/Solo and the empire had been defeated and the first order was just getting off the ground right?

Like in the history of this Star Wars story Rey's birth comes much closer to a low water mark for the dark side than a high one right?

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Like in the history of this Star Wars story Rey's birth comes much closer to a low water mark for the dark side than a high one right?

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Not if that's exactly when Snoke/Plagueis was emerging again. Also, maybe the Force couldn't trust Skywalker blood (Luke) to raise a new generation of Jedis. Especially one who was also of Skywalker blood.

Another problem with this Rey killing Kylo to finally end the Skywalker line thing is that I put the odds at just above zero percent that Rey is going to kill Kylo Ren.

I'm with you guys on this being a good arc for Kylo Ren. I think he's going to ultimately let himself die to bring the story to a close, but I don't think Rey is going to kill him.

That's giving the force a lot more analytical power than has ever been indicated though. I dunno, I just find it pretty far fetched to explain Rey.

live look at star wars fanboys when you tell them the whole skywalker family was an evil creation that the force spent 9 movies and 80+ years trying to snuff out:



note- i actually like the creativity and effort to try and make a coherent story across all 9 films

It doesn't seam that analytical to me. it's basically...

Plagueis re-emerging = bad.

Two Skywalkers still dabbling in the Force together = bad.

Must create an "anti-venom" via Rey = good.

Granted, I'm not saying it all passes with flying colors or that I'm 100% in support of any of this either. I'm basically just putting myself in Abrams shoes in attempt to try and make all nine movies gel and make more sense together (and likely not succeeding).

jackie childs said:

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live look at star wars fanboys when you tell them the whole skywalker family was an evil creation that the force spent 9 movies and 80+ years trying to snuff out:

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Ha, true. But two out of four Skywalkers (Anakin and Kylo) ended up being utterly horrible people responsible for the deaths of millions, if not billions. Those aren't great odds (I know - "Never tell mw the odds!"). It wouldn't be that far fetched for one to come to the conclusion that the Skywalkers, as a whole, probably weren't great for the galaxy. A notion that is certainly easier to digest as long as Luke's Force ghost is still around and doing good things and essentially serving to still give his family a good name (if only in the eyes of the audience).

Luke killed lots of people on the first death star too. And allegedly on Jakku as well. Skywalkers are executioners with the exception of one.

TCTTS said:

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Ok... so, taking Jokershady's awesome theory into account, and the ensuing discussion of it, along with the current Episode IX rumors, here's what I'm thinking would make the most sense, satisfy certain loose ends, and still remain true to the already established themes of TFA and TLJ. If I were Abrams, this would be my take...

• Darth Plagueis created Anakin. If that's not fact already, make it so. Plagueis picked some random woman on Tatooine and somehow incepted her with midi-chlorians or whatever. However he did it, this would be the first time in the galaxy's history that someone figured out how to create actual life with The Force. As laid out by Flashdiaz, this would also now make the Skywalker blood a basterdization (purposeful misspelling so at o not be censored) of The Force.
• Plagues was murdered, perhaps by Palpatine, his apprentice. However, Plagueis not only learned how to "keep the ones he cared about from dying," he learned how to keep even himself from dying. This is why Snoke looks the way he does, like a resurrected corpse. Snoke is Plagueis, Plagueis is Snoke. However, this process of resurrection took years, maybe even decades, and Plagueis/Snoke wasn't at full strength again, unable to reemerge and claim his rightful throne until Palpatine was defeated... by Plagueis' own creation.
• Plagueis then essentially got a do-over with Kylo, the grandson of his creation. Together, however, they needed to eliminate the son, "corrupted" by the light side of the Force, hence their pursuit of Luke.
• Kylo's big thematic push in TLJ is to "Let the past die. Kill it if you have to." So from a thematic standpoint, how do you challenge him in Episode IX? You don't let him kill the past. You make him face it. Kylo somehow learns that Snoke is Plagueis and that Plagueis created his grandfather. In other words, he learns that he killed the man who (essentially) created him. Maybe there's some record of this at Vader's fortress, maybe there's another character who emerges to tell the story, but as rumored, we see all of the above via flashbacks (even if only briefly). Kylo then has no choice but to face his past. His past literally flows through him. And in the end, his "redeeming" quality is that he ultimately "kills the past" by dying.
• Through all of this, Rey's existence is now given context. She was created by The Force (whether in birth or in childhood) to ultimately help Kylo fulfill his destiny... which is to "let" the past/himself die, to kill off the Skywalker bloodline once and for all, to balance out the equation. There's even some nice symmetry with Anakin being created on an outer-rim desert planet and The Force eventually willing Rey to one as well. Almost as if it has a sense of irony/symmetry/balance in its intentions. And this doesn't have to be explicit either. No one has to spell it out for her or the audience that the Force created her. It can basically be assumed. But if Abrams does want to make this explicit, he has plenty of Force ghosts who are now one with the Force and know of the Force's wants/needs/history/etc/that there can be a little info dump if necessary.
• IMO, this still wouldn't undercut the "nobody" theme established in TFA and TLJ, as the Force would have purposely gone out of its way to chose a nobody/non-Skywalker for its task. And in doing so, showed so many other "nobodies" (broom boy, etc) that it's not your bloodline that makes you great. Granted, Rey would still be "chosen" in this instance, which I kind of have an issue with, but as long the point is to essentially say, "You don't have to be a Skywalker to save the galaxy," I think I can be on board with that.

Thoughts? Yay? Nay? What am I missing?

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I like it but I think that's way too complicated to turn out in the very last movie. That storyline should have been building all along. It would be almost like introducing the concept of Infinity Stones in Infinity War and ignoring them in the other Marvel movies leading up to it.

It's pretty analytical for the force to have not made a life when Vader and the emperor were literally blowing up planets but to make one because Pleageuis might be coming back and because the guy that just helped bring down the empire is training his kid nephew. Like Luke + Kylo + Plagueis (whatever he's doing at the time) is bad enough but Anakin + Sidious (+Luke and theoretically Leia) terrorizing the galaxy with all of the good guys doing nothing wasn't bad enough?

Just seems weird to me.

But since I'm criticizing this suggestions, let me throw out one of my own.

If I were Abrams, I wouldn't, at any point, even talk about Rey's parents or her past in this movie. That to me is the contrast with Ren, who is weighed down by his family history. He was always going to be someone, even if that someone ended up being bad.

Rey will continue to try and stop Kylo Ren, because that's what she feels like she has to do, not because that's what she was born to do. She does the right thing because she's truly selfless, not because someone told her it was right. That's also why I don't think she'll be able to kill Kylo Ren, and why Ren will ultimately allow himself to die and let Rey and the rest live. He won't come completely good, but he'll let the story end with his death, finally ending the Sith line.

You're probably right.

That said, it could all be done in three quick minutes of exposition, to both Kylo and Rey, no problem. It's not that complicated.

However, I do admit that it's a lot of hot air and no real forward progress on the story at hand.

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If I were Abrams, I wouldn't, at any point, even talk about Rey's parents or her past in this movie. That to me is the contrast with Ren, who is weighed down by his family history. He was always going to be someone, even if that someone ended up being bad.

Rey will continue to try and stop Kylo Ren, because that's what she feels like she has to do, not because that's what she was born to do. She does the right thing because she's truly selfless, not because someone told her it was right. That's also why I don't think she'll be able to kill Kylo Ren, and why Ren will ultimately allow himself to die and let Rey and the rest live. He won't come completely good, but he'll let the story end with his death, finally ending the Sith line.

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Ultimately, this does feel like the cleanest/easiest way to go. Makes the most sense too. I was purely coming at this from an "end of a saga" standpoint in attempt to appease myself and fanboys, but the chances of this movie actually going the route I proposed are slim to none.

I think you can get there with Kylo Ren's arc without bringing Rey into it. In a way she's the Obi Wan of this trilogy, at times risking her life trying to pull Kylo back from the dark side, and failing.

Right now Kylo Ren is the saga. He's the character that ties the whole franchise together. So in a way I think it's even more fitting if this saga dies with him.

Yeah, that's a great point.

bobinator said:

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I think you can get there with Kylo Ren's arc without bringing Rey into it. In a way she's the Obi Wan of this trilogy, at times risking her life trying to pull Kylo back from the dark side, and failing.

Right now Kylo Ren is the saga. He's the character that ties the whole franchise together. So in a way I think it's even more fitting if this saga dies with him.

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agreed

and while i think it'd be bold and awesome for disney to just embrace that maybe the universe was better off without the skywalkers ever having existed, that seems very unlikely and that's why i strongly suspect we get a kylo redemption in episode 9.

TCTTS said:

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You're probably right.

That said, it could all be done in three quick minutes of exposition, to both Kylo and Rey, no problem. It's not that complicated.

However, I do admit that it's a lot of hot air and no real forward progress on the story at hand.

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I agree with you that it could be done. I guess by complicated I was speaking for the average Star Wars fan and not guys like you and I. I just think that if the whole concept of closing the saga hinges on 3 minutes of dialog from a prequel movie made in 2005, then it's going to hurt the movie.

I bet they are bringing Leia back so she can sacrifice herself to save Kylo, which will be apart of his redemption arc. Kylo and Rey will end up together, raising a family on Tatooine, and we will all collectively gag.

To me, the best ending would be if the Jedi did actually end (including Rey). They haven't really been able to use the force effectively for storytelling since Empire. Its lost its magic (over-explanation in the prequels and complete throwing out of all rules in TFA and TLJ). End it. Move on. Let's see what Rian and the Game of Thrones guys come up with to maybe salvage this thing with new storytelling.

*sigh*

So cool. So cool.

I'll try not to be disappointed when it doesn't happen. Cause that would be crazy awesome!


What would be even better, is if by some way we've been getting trolled this whole time. That this whole final trilogy was planned from the start but only a select few knew it.

Not the case obviously, but if it were that would probably never ever be topped.

Man...such a cool way to tie all that together TCTTS!

I don't have all the pieces worked out in my head, but in the interest of zany plots:

1. Han Solo/Chewie were on Jakku searching the wreckage for information on Snoke.
2. While on Jakku they come across a couple of Drunks who believe their kid is cursed.
3. Han/Chewie realize this kid has the force.
4. Han/Chewie take the kid from the parents who want to get rid of her. And take her to Luke's temple for training.
5. When they land at Luke's temple after Ren/Knights of Ren burn the place down.
6. Luke and Han have a big fight over the whole "You tried to kill my son/He is a monster"...Blah...Blah...Blah.
7. Luke looks at the girl and in a fit of rage blinds her the force (Like Bastila did to Revan) says he won't train any more Jedi and that the Force is a curse.
8. Han/Chewie take her back to the Jakku where Unkar tells Han he will take her to her parents (who are really dead and owe Unkar money, so he takes her to "pay" off their debt) and or reasons, Han and Chewie catch a ship other than the Falcon to go after Ben. Probably to try and sneak up on Ben because he would recognize the Falcon.
9. The Force Awakens is the Force reawaken in Rey like it did for Revan...She is good with the Falcon because she has been on it and watched Han with it. She "remembers" she needs to go to Luke for training.
10. When Maz asks Han who the girl is, he has figured out who she is. He feels protective of her, because he realized his guilt in all this. Then the flashback can be some of her memories returning.
11. When Luke sees her in TLJ, he realizes who she is and Luke is upside because of what he has done to her and also because he realizes the Force basically overrode his will. That is why he tries to burn down the tree and we get the stuff with Yoda.


This way, Rey is still a nobody in terms of lineage, but a someone to the story. I think it fits the pieces that have been laid and minimal miracle force babies.