****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******

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aTmAg
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C@LAg said:

So much irony in your reply.
How is that?

You think all criticisms are equal? Is saying that the show sucks because Dany's hair is always too perfect an equally valid criticism over something like an obviously bad military tactic of a supposed great military leader?
aTmAg
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digital_ag said:

You might be a little too detached from reality.

Your criticism of my point isn't rooted in anything other than "I know what the character was thinking therefore I'm right".
No, it's over what makes a lick of logical sense.
digital_ag
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The character is smart so they wouldn't do something stupid isn't logic.

How was it impossible for it to happen? Does Cersei defy the laws of physics?
Joseph Parrish
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smokeythebear said:

Joseph Parrish said:

Ghost91 said:

Tormund: "You weigh as much as two fleas %#$ing".

TexAgs: "OMG makes no sense, the volume mass and weight of the fleas would not increase simply based on greater kinetic energy, OMG lazy writing worst show in the history of shows".


Drogon in front of the castle was the same size on screen as he was from Tyrion's perspective when Rhaegal was shot down. Euron and his ships were way further away than the ship Tyrion was on. Be a sarcastic ass all you want, but it was a mistake on their part. It was almost as dumb as Dany trying to threaten Cersei with her tiny amount of troops.

And this explanation is as non-technical as it gets.
Still trying to get caught up on the rest of the thread, but couldn't hold off anymore.

Raegal getting sniped while flying from a moving ship that they "couldn't see" was absurd. Yes, we all get that. The show writers probably pictured it more of a "surprise attack" and that Euron got the drop on them, but after special effects and everything, yes it looks pretty inconceivable. Oh well, we get the point.

But don't use that absurdity to validate a clearly strategic setup outside KL. Drogon was obviously staged far enough away to avoid the scorpions on the wall. This is VERY STANDARD ARMY PRESENTATION. You stand just far enough away from each other to avoid their long-range weapons. It doesn't make the show "better" if they put Drogon on top of a mountain a mile away. He's staged far enough back to indicate the risk of the scorpions, that's all we need. Tyrion approached the wall and when he got within the range of the archers, they nocked their arrows to indicate he was in range. Acting like Cersei could have effectively killed the Unsullied with arrows is disingenuous to pretty much all based level of medieval battle strategy.
Where have I once said they were all in range of arrows from archers? I've always been talking about being in range of the scorpions.

And Drogon was as far away from KL as he was from Tyrion on the ship when Rhaegal got sniped. Which means those scorpions have a much further range because Tyrion's ship wasn't the one that shot down Rhaegal. To answer your question, it would be much more reasonable to have Drogon flying off in the distance instead of stationary.

Is this the part where you tell me you can't use the size of a known object (in this case, the exact same object) to estimate how far away it is?
cbr
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Lets face it the series has been amazing but 8-4 was pure trash, there is no redeeming it, just hope its behind us or we will have the worst flameout ending to a great franchise in history.
rsf0626
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This season has been kinda weak so far, but there's so much storyline that had to be crammed into 6 episodes, i think it was expected that it would be rushed/sloppy for the sake of finishing out the show
Champ Bailey
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cbr said:

Lets face it the series has been amazing but 8-4 was pure trash, there is no redeeming it, just hope its behind us or we will have the worst flameout ending to a great franchise in history.


Disagree. I thought 8-4 was classic GOT, and sets up the end of the series in dramatic fashion.
smokeythebear
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Did you even read my post? I'm saying the scorpions can't shoot that far. The scene of the scorpion hitting Rhaegal from so far away was an error, but you can't use that error to justify a different criticism. Drogon was clearly staged far enough away to be able to avoid the scorpions. If you are complaining about the distance, then complain about the distance Rhaegal to the ship Tyrion was on because we ALL agree that was absurd.

As to the army being close enough to the scorpions, yes I think the scorpions could have hit the unsullied, but one bolt wouldn't cause very much damage on the ground like that and two or three bolts would open up an opportunity for Drogon to attack while they reloaded. It would have been foolish to fire the scorpions at the unsullied.
spag.ag2003
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Yeah, GRRM is extremely hands off at this point. From what I've heard in interviews from the man himself and D+D.

1. When it was apparent the show was going to get ahead of the books they had a multi-day meeting in which GRRM provided the major character arcs (i.e., Jon wins the throne, Cersei gets killed by Jamie, etc.). The details of how everyone arrives at these points were still very much up in the air (obviously as the books are still a work in progress). Hell, it's been so long it's possible some of the major arcs have even changed.

2. I don't think the means to the end were completely unknown during that meeting though. GRRM had many Winds of Winter chapters completed even at that point as multiple chapters intended for ADWD were pushed. For example, the sept nuke and Tommen swan dive seem like very GRRM things to do. I think he told them some plot points and major arcs.

3. Beginning last season (I think), GRRM made the decision to divorce himself from show production (including reading scripts) because he wanted to focus on finishing the books. Also, D+D have said that it was hard for GRRM to keep the books and show separate in his head and he didn't want the show to ultimately influence the books. This whole thing is actually a pretty fascinating study when you think about it.

Ultimately, GRRM isn't involved in the show anymore. He gave the notes years ago at this point (and likely some notes in the ensuing years but far fewer over the past two seasons).
TCTTS
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aTmAg
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Ranger #007 said:

This is the woman who has lost all of her children and two of them were murdered by people taking revenge on her family and one who was willingly sent with her killers. She may not be a dumbass but she ain't flawless.
Not willingly sent by her. One jumped out of the window, and another was poisoned (by means that the show never actually fully showed). To claim any of that was on Cersei is ridiculous (other than to claim that she raised a crappy kid who was worthy of poisoning).
smokeythebear
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Champ Bailey said:

cbr said:

Lets face it the series has been amazing but 8-4 was pure trash, there is no redeeming it, just hope its behind us or we will have the worst flameout ending to a great franchise in history.


Disagree. I thought 8-4 was classic GOT, and sets up the end of the series in dramatic fashion.
Agreed, 8-4 was when they finally took off the plot-armor and returned to the classic Game of Thrones where anyone and everyone is likely to be brutally murdered in front of your eyes.
StringerBell
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i liked 8-4. not the best not the worst

my issue is that they're setting up a lot of twists that need to be worked through and they only have two episodes left.

now we gotta resolve dany/jon, dany/cersei, jon/his family, clegane bowl, dany/tyrion, dany/varys, cersei/jamie, ghost/jon etc.
bangobango
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jtstanley4621 said:

Ranger #007 said:

So does GRRM have no input into the show? I know we've run out of source material but it's not like the man is dead. Surely he has some general notes and it seems like they'd go to him for some of these major events.
He seems fairly hands off, which I find interesting. If I were in his position, I would want to be involved at least to the point where the series gets the ending correct or it lines up with my books.

Unfortunately, we may never know if the ending from the show is the exact ending in the books....


https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/books/1123230/Game-of-Thrones-George-RR-Martin-HBO-ending-books-change-differences-Iron-Throne-die/amp

This article says a lot if you read between the lines. He's not had much to do with the show last few years and you can tell it bother him. They've butchered his baby.

Hopefully it motivates him to finish his books.
Belton Ag
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Champ Bailey said:

cbr said:

Lets face it the series has been amazing but 8-4 was pure trash, there is no redeeming it, just hope its behind us or we will have the worst flameout ending to a great franchise in history.


Disagree. I thought 8-4 was classic GOT, and sets up the end of the series in dramatic fashion.
Yep. Sansa playing some Littlefinger games, Tyrion and Varys scheming against Dany behind her back, Rhaegal and Missandei suddenly dead. All this was classic GOT, very good episode.
Joseph Parrish
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smokeythebear said:

Did you even read my post? I'm saying the scorpions can't shoot that far. The scene of the scorpion hitting Rhaegal from so far away was an error, but you can't use that error to justify a different criticism. Drogon was clearly staged far enough away to be able to avoid the scorpions. If you are complaining about the distance, then complain about the distance Rhaegal to the ship Tyrion was on because we ALL agree that was absurd.

As to the army being close enough to the scorpions, yes I think the scorpions could have hit the unsullied, but one bolt wouldn't cause very much damage on the ground like that and two or three bolts would open up an opportunity for Drogon to attack while they reloaded. It would have been foolish to fire the scorpions at the unsullied.
Yes, I read your post and you didn't mention the distance as what was ridiculous at all (your argument was line of sight)...so don't try to act like you suddenly made that argument clear. I'm not a mind reader here. Read your own posts before you accuse me of not reading yours.

If you say the distance was a mistake, then I'll agree with that.

Sex Panther
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StringerBell said:




I love the inside the show segments, and D&D always do a really good job of explaining stuff that may have left the viewer questioning the intentions, but I noticed that last night and was like... "What the **** do you mean, she kinda forgot about the Iron Fleet???"
bobinator
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How exactly did they do that? I don't think anyone is particularly more or less likely to die than I did two episodes ago.
wannaggie
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PatAg said:

gigemJTH12 said:

Brian Earl Spilner said:

Any chance Varys is going to try to rally the GC to Jon?


I think Varys is still working for Cersei
No chance

Other than "orange woman bad", what exactly is wrong with Cersei, in terms of the kingdom of Westeros?

Sure, WE, the quasi-omniscient reader/viewer know that she's the biggest knt in all of kntville, but to be honest, that doesn't necessarily mean her kingdom will run any worse than anyone else's. Cersei is loyal to herself and her family, and she will destroy anyone who touches her or her family. But other than that, what's her taxation policy? How well do her knights and bannermen keep the roads and fields free from bandits and raiders?

Do YOU let people mess with you? Do YOU turn the other cheek when people attack you and your family, kill your children?

There has been nothing in the shows or the books which suggests Cersei is a genocidal maniac.
She's power-hungry, but even her lust for power is based entirely around her Lannister identity. Power is simply the means to obtain prestige and security for her and her Lannister brood.

Thought experiment: after the Battle of Winterfell, a horrendous plague from wight bodies sweeps through the North. Dany, Jon, Starks, Unsullied, etc., all die within a week. Nobody significant exists to challenge Cersei's claim to the throne. What happens now? Does anyone else need to die? Any more castles need to be ransacked, heads chopped off, thousands of peasants burned alive?

There isn't a single justification offered for why Targaryen Westeros is better than Lannister Westeros or Stark/Baratheon Westeros.
StringerBell
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Quote:

There isn't a single justification offered for why Targaryen Westeros is better than Lannister Westeros or Stark/Baratheon Westeros.
wife and i had that same conversation last night with the same takeaway. the wheel keeps spinning.
bobinator
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Quote:

There has been nothing in the shows or the books which suggests Cersei is a genocidal maniac.
She's power-hungry, but even her lust for power is based entirely around her Lannister identity. Power is simply the means to obtain prestige and security for her and her Lannister brood.
You mean other than time she blew up a holy temple and killed everyone in it?
Zombie Jon Snow
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aTmAg said:

digital_ag said:

aTmAg said:

digital_ag said:

bangobango said:

By far the more hostile posts are from people defending the show.

100%

Lots of people running interference for D&D. This thread might as well be on the politics board.
Or, perhaps you are over generalizing. Apparently I am one of the ones "running interference for D&D" yet I have been criticizing them plenty.
Every 3 pages we get the same post: "You guys criticizing the show are just mad that what you expected to happen didn't happen."

I made a casual observation last night about Missandei grabbing Cersei and jumping off the gate. I think you were even the person that chimed in "ackshually that couldn't have happen you people will complain about anything".

The lack of self-awareness is pretty astounding.
Because if she was capable of doing that, Cersei wouldn't have gotten close to her in the first place. It's not that hard to understand. Cersei is not a dumbass.

At least try to make your criticisms have some merit.

You offer no proof of that except your opinion Cersei wouldn't get that close.... but the evidence does not support that.

I think she simply lacked the will to do that - too scared or maybe frozen in fear hoping for someone to save her - and she would have likely failed but I thought she might try it as well. It's not completely out left field. she isn't a warrior of course. I think it's easy to say she should have done it though - it was certain death - I would have.

We can see in these pics that

1. her wrists are shackled but her hands are free and her arms are not bound. She could have extended her arms for sure and grabbed with her hands.
2. her feet are not bound in any manner
3. Cersei is very much closer to her (from above you can see that) then anyone else and she could thus get to Cersei I think before anyone got to her (not that she could succeed in pulling her off necessarily but she could have reached her.
4. nobody has a weapon drawn until just before the execution - the Mountain is well behind her
5. Cersei moves just a turn and one step to reach Missandei - she was very close.

Here from above you can see how close she is




Here is her wrists shackled but no other restraint - this is also the angle of the shot when Cersei turns and takes one step before grabbing her arm. She was even closer then.




Here you can see no restraints on her legs - her entire body fell after alo indicating there was nothing binding her to the platform.





^HERE - she could have fallen to the platform and grabbed the flowing dress with lots of material and pulled as she slipped over the side hoping to pull her with her for example. they wouldn't even be able to get to her before she was close to going over.
aggietony2010
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aTmAg said:

Ranger #007 said:

This is the woman who has lost all of her children and two of them were murdered by people taking revenge on her family and one who was willingly sent with her killers. She may not be a dumbass but she ain't flawless.
Not willingly sent by her. One jumped out of the window, and another was poisoned (by means that the show never actually fully showed). To claim any of that was on Cersei is ridiculous (other than to claim that she raised a crappy kid who was worthy of poisoning).


I disagree on her lack of fault in Tommens death. She killed his wife. He seemed perfectly okay with being the high Sparrow's ***** if it mean he got to try for the record with Margaery a few more times. Cersei decided that wasn't okay with her. That episode is where Cersei goes from a dark grey to black character. It's clear she's no longer in it for her children (err, child) at that point.
StringerBell
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i mean if folks kept me in captivity and marched me down the street nude id probably want to kill them too.
bobinator
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This zapruder film breakdown of whether she could have grabbed Cersei is kind of weird to me.
Tobias Funke
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For what it's worth, I binged the entire show for the first time starting in March, and have been watching this season's episodes as they are released. I honestly don't see a major drop-off in the writing, quality of the episodes, or story. I thought the first half of the series was pretty good, not great, and I've thought the most recent seasons have been pretty good, not great.

I wonder if some of you are being plagued by nostalgia bias. Rabid fans of shows tend to nitpick everything happen in latter seasons and their enjoyment of the series naturally decreases.
cbr
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Champ Bailey said:

cbr said:

Lets face it the series has been amazing but 8-4 was pure trash, there is no redeeming it, just hope its behind us or we will have the worst flameout ending to a great franchise in history.


Disagree. I thought 8-4 was classic GOT, and sets up the end of the series in dramatic fashion.


I can forgive bad battle tactics for high drama.

I can't forvive impossible stupidity out of character. No way Melisandre doesn't take cersi for a wall dive. No way cersi doesn't make pin cushions out of all those dusty idiots in front of her door. No way Tyrion tries to talk cersi out of being cersi. The whole dragon - wasting ham handed fake looking sea battle will be a gif in the dictionary under 'wtf'

Bronn just popping in on the Lannister's was so stupidly funny I thought Chris Farley was coming in behind him shouting 'down by the rrrriivveer'

And that's not even counting the whole 'welp that super magic 10,000 year mystery of evil dead thingy' and the 'magic paraplegic wizard' thing, yeah, all that was just a one episode distraction.

The savior of humanity? Oh yeah. That chick. Let's propose to her real quick, shoot that down, then have her give a speech about family and winterfell and politics. And then have her sneak off Supposedly forever. That all flowed well.

Come on. It was terrible.
digital_ag
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Well constructed on what I saw. My main observation was Missandei's arms were not bound, her feet were not tethered to the structure because her body fell, and Cersei at one point literally touched and whispers in her ear.

But I guess because she's smart it's literally impossible because one person says so.

Also the entire Faith's 7 arc happened because of Cersei's brilliant genius. Her downward spiral into a murderous tyrant is a literal machination of her own ineptitude.
aggietony2010
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StringerBell said:

i mean if folks kept me in captivity and marched me down the street nude id probably want to kill them too.


The Tyrells had nothing to do with that. Only Olenna had a hand in Joffrey's murder. Cersei decided to take out all of her rivals in one fell swoop, not caring about the impact on Tommen.

She's also the reason they had any power in the first place. Everything leading up to the Sept explosion is all because Cersei couldn't stand not being queen anymore.
Zombie Jon Snow
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bobinator said:

This zapruder film breakdown of whether she could have grabbed Cersei is kind of weird to me.
I think it's just weird to say it is impossible.

It's obviously possible. But

1. they didn't write it that way so the possibility was really irrelevant
2. she isn't a fighter so it was unlikely for her character i suppose

but not impossible.
bobinator
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On the other hand, if you watched everything back to back, you probably didn't spend as much time thinking about some of the nuances of the story/plot/characters/etc so it's a lot easier to overlook minor things.

I don't remember ever having to think "wait a minute, does that even make sense?" during the first five seasons, but it's been fairly common lately.
Champ Bailey
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bobinator said:



Quote:

There has been nothing in the shows or the books which suggests Cersei is a genocidal maniac.
She's power-hungry, but even her lust for power is based entirely around her Lannister identity. Power is simply the means to obtain prestige and security for her and her Lannister brood.
You mean other than time she blew up a holy temple and killed everyone in it?


Also how she torments her victims. Also how she framed Tyrion and still partially blames him for Joffrey, also the fact that she schemed to kill Robert with poison.

Say what you will about Jon/Dany/Gendry, but they don't torture people. Their intentions are to make Westeros better. Cersei is about making her life better, and eliminating anyone who stands in her way.

Although I will concede the line is starting to get blurry with Dany.
aggietony2010
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

aTmAg said:

digital_ag said:

aTmAg said:

digital_ag said:

bangobango said:

By far the more hostile posts are from people defending the show.

100%

Lots of people running interference for D&D. This thread might as well be on the politics board.
Or, perhaps you are over generalizing. Apparently I am one of the ones "running interference for D&D" yet I have been criticizing them plenty.
Every 3 pages we get the same post: "You guys criticizing the show are just mad that what you expected to happen didn't happen."

I made a casual observation last night about Missandei grabbing Cersei and jumping off the gate. I think you were even the person that chimed in "ackshually that couldn't have happen you people will complain about anything".

The lack of self-awareness is pretty astounding.
Because if she was capable of doing that, Cersei wouldn't have gotten close to her in the first place. It's not that hard to understand. Cersei is not a dumbass.

At least try to make your criticisms have some merit.

You offer no proof of that except your opinion Cersei wouldn't get that close.... but the evidence does not support that.

I think she simply lacked the will to do that - too scared or maybe frozen in fear hoping for someone to save her - and she would have likely failed but I thought she might try it as well. It's not completely out left field. she isn't a warrior of course. I think it's easy to say she should have done it though - it was certain death - I would have.

We can see in these pics that

1. her wrists are shackled but her hands are free and her arms are not bound. She could have extended her arms for sure and grabbed with her hands.
2. her feet are not bound in any manner
3. Cersei is very much closer to her (from above you can see that) then anyone else and she could thus get to Cersei I think before anyone got to her (not that she could succeed in pulling her off necessarily but she could have reached her.
4. nobody has a weapon drawn until just before the execution - the Mountain is well behind her
5. Cersei moves just a turn and one step to reach Missandei - she was very close.

Here from above you can see how close she is




Here is her wrists shackled but no other restraint - this is also the angle of the shot when Cersei turns and takes one step before grabbing her arm. She was even closer then.




Here you can see no restraints on her legs - her entire body fell after alo indicating there was nothing binding her to the platform.





^HERE - she could have fallen to the platform and grabbed the flowing dress with lots of material and pulled as she slipped over the side hoping to pull her with her for example. they wouldn't even be able to get to her before she was close to going over.


In the one shot where Missandei is close enough to strike, they're only standing on the 8 foot version of the set. All that's gonna do is break Cersei's leg, or maybe "Bran" her. All the shots on the full set have Missandei added in post. It never would've worked.
Champ Bailey
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Nope. It was awesome.
bobinator
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She also tied up that bell-ringing lady for the zombie mountain's amusement.

Short of having all of the characters do a townhall debate about their tax plans, the closest we're going to get for what's good for the people is how good the characters themselves are and Cersei is a horrible person.
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