Both Dorff and Ali have been oustanding so far. I feel like Stephen Dorff was born to play this role

Max Power said:

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Episode 5 is up and it was great. That final sequence with Ali and Dorff as old men was so good. I was already impressed with Ali but Dorff so, so good.

The big thing that jumped out to me was the homeless kid said she called herself the princess of the pink rooms. I'm guessing that's a big clue. I don't remember seeing anything that jumps out so I think that's something to keep an eye out for.

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The drawings in the girls room included some pink walled castles it looked like. I don't know if it is a clue though - except a clue that it is really her for the viewers i mean.

This was a superb episode - among the top 3 in the entire series (all 3 seasons).

I've got some theories now...but I gotta simmer on them a bit.....some huge revelations though:

PS - man Woodard really ****ed some **** up.

1. Lucy wrote the letter - suspected that before but pretty much confirmed now. And she was definitely involved - seemed to imply with the cop Harris
2. Harris himself - seems to be the one that planted the evidence against Woodard.
3. And he disappeared in 1990 so shortly after the events we just saw - revealed to Hays in the 2015 documentary filming. something he maybe blocked out or that's what he "knows" and isn't saying.
4. Hays and Roland talking about what they did - implication is they figured out about Harris, killed him and disposed of his body and now Hays either does not remember some of it blocked it out or knows but is keeping that buried still.
5. the girl on the tape - so this is where i'm not sure but could be faked, could be an imposter set up to do it, could be the real Julie and she is brainwashed ala Patty Hearst (this has occurred to me before).

But my theory is related to all of that and how it might fit together in a big picture....to be continued...

Shelton98 said:

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Meh. This episode started great, but petered out pretty quickly. I just can't make myself give a damn about two 70 year old retired cops trying to solve a cold case about a kidnapped girl from 1980 who I don't care about either.

Season 1 just set the bar so high that they probably should have just stopped there.

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To each their own, but....you're out of your damn mind. The twist in this episode was huge. And this season has been great television.

Noblemen06 said:

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I'm getting the impression they killed the mother's cousin that stayed with the family and supposedly was peeping on the little girl through the boy's closet.

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could be but.... Harris disappearing in 1990 is a little too coincidental for me.

but Hays seemed surprised about finding the cousins body in the quarry in missouri and he also claimed ignorance about Harris disappearing. I can't imagine he would not have known about Harris - so is it his memory issues or is it trying to distance from it by feigning ignorance.

I think the hole was not a peeping hole - i think it was for Will to pass the little notes to his sister. Remember the little notes Hays found in her things in the later visit, he put them in his pocket. they could have easily been passed through that hole.

PooDoo said:

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You can't pass a note through a wall like that.

I think she's been brainwashed

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what? roll up a little piece of paper and it slides right through a hole like that.

In fact they look like they've been rolled up. Although they were stored flat.

they say comforting things

I'm always here
Don't listen
I'll always keep you safe
It's okay
It's alright
Have a good night

I'm not sure we are going to get closure on what really happened to the girl. Bad guys won't go down.

This is about Hayes and Roland and how it affected their lives.

Harris = guy who planted the backpack and thus why he disappeared, perhaps. What did the cop look like that found it?

When I re-watched ep 5 today.... I picked up on a very subtle little thing that happened that was obviously done for a reason.... but I can't really wrap my brain around it what it means....

when 2015 Hays was upstairs in his house and had a momentary lapse of memory of what year it was... he was looking/calling out his kids' names and heard their voices from the parents bedroom. So he slowly opens the door to see 1990 Amelia with Hays reading "The Jungle Book" book to the kids. No big deal.

But, 1990 Hays.... who is laying in the bed with wife and kids looks up briefly and sees the bedroom door opening slowly for no apparent reason... and there's nobody there.

I found that strange. I chalked it up to "time is a flat circle".... but still can't wrap my brain around it.

And I think "The Jungle Book" wasn't just a random bedtime story.

Uggh was kinda disappointed we didn't get to see Amelia's god givens...

At any rate whoever planted the evidence is the killer / abductor, Have they found the kids backpack yet? I couldn't remember if it's in police custody already or if it was still missing

Zombie Jon Snow said:

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PooDoo said:

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You can't pass a note through a wall like that.

I think she's been brainwashed

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what? roll up a little piece of paper and it slides right through a hole like that.

In fact they look like they've been rolled up. Although they were stored flat.

they say comforting things

I'm always here
Don't listen
I'll always keep you safe
It's okay
It's alright
Have a good night

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You think that wall was 1 piece of drywall?

There is usually a 3.75-4" gap in between the 2 pieces of drywall.

No way a kid is fishing those through the wall. And even if they could that theory makes no sense.

The last scene with Hayes and Roland in 2015 was great tv.

I rarely see this anymore.

There's something I can't get past from the interaction between Lucy and Amelia. Quoting "children should laugh" from the ransom note was an easy catch but when Lucy said "I've got the soul of a *****" it's just off. That doesn't strike me as a statement anyone says about themselves. It just makes me feel like someone has been feeding that to her, putting her down, and she's bought in. Perhaps someone was grooming her for quite a while and she sold off her daughter.

I definitely think Lucy was involved in some way. The comments, her suicide, employment at the chicken plant, etc.

That's... hm... well that looks pretty good...

I'd be shocked if you aren't pretty close to the mark.

My own theory is somewhat similar although i do not really have cousin Dan as a suspect per se.... I think he gets involved sort of after the fact.

I can't really figure out 2015 timeline that much and don't trust almost anything from Hays perspective there - is he imagining it all, is he faking at times, is his memory solid, are we seeing what happened or what he thinks happened, is he sitting in a crazy home and staring into a snowglobe and imagining it all. who knows.


There are 5 main culprits and possibly a 6th here of the original crime of kidnapping Julie and the death (accidental I believe) of Will; and one complicit (knowingly or unknowingly) organization.


Lucy Purcell mother of Julie and Will
Unnamed Hoyt daughter (UHD) the woman briefly shown in photo that lost a child (Hoyt's granddaughter)
Unnamed Black man (UBM) likely worked for Hoyt, and later UHD or was involved with her in some way
Harris James cop who we now know covered up some stuff on 1980 investigation and planted the evidence that framed Woodard
Gerald Kindt prosecutor in 1980 and AG in 1990
Dan "cousin" might only be after the fact

The complicit organization is the foundation set up by the Hoyt's.

Theory:

UHD lost her child and is distraught for years. UBM worked at the plant for years, was injured sometime and ends up (maybe as a settlement) in the employ of UHD and the family/company take good care of him. She instructs UBM who she trusts implicitly for some reason to find her a replacement child rather than go through adoptions. UBM knows Lucy from the plant, knows she is in an unhappy home, knows she might want better for her kids and could be bought off possibly if she believed her daughter (who bears some resemblance to the missing child) would go to a much better home. Lucy knowing the child is not Tom's accepts this idea and arranges for the kids to meet the "aunt" in the field several times to get to know her and bribing will especially with new toys, games, etc.. UBM buys those dolls for example. Lucy figures Will stays with his dad and Julie gets a better life and she gets out of motherhood and all that she hates with some cash to live the life she wants. They are instructed not to tell their dad. In fact Lucy may convince Julie that UHD is really her mom and not herself and Tom. UHD and UBM are the two seen by the farmer in the area a few times in the "new" brown sedan. They go out there to meet the kids UBM stands watch and plans the abduction eventually. The peephole was where Will passed little notes rolled up to Julie he was very protective of her. Eventually they decide to take Julie once trust has been established but they want a plausible story for Will and while he is distracted playing the game she disappears. Will is distraught and looking for his sister although somewhat casually (asking Freddy if he has seen her) so it does not appear she was snatched violently. In his search though Will falls or is chased by Freddy and hits his head and dies. Lucy and UBM go back looking for Will and find him. Lucy is upset but they can't undo what they've done already so she and UBM place him in the peaceful repose in the cave. And I think Julie was shown he was ok and "resting" before she leaves for good. Later Lucy writes the note as a way (she thinks) of giving Tom some peace of mind about Julie.

Meanwhile the investigation begins and the Hoyt family being powerful in the area owns certain cops (Harris) and the prosecutor Kindt. And they use that to make the case fail in certain ways. Harris interviews the farmer and some neighbors but leaves key things out of reports. He also plants the evidence of the sweater and backpack after the fact at Woodard's house. Kindt may be a lover of UHD or they own him some way and he does his part to derail the investigation as well and close the book on Woodard quickly without argument. And the foundation (directed by Hoyt directly or through his daughter UHD) acts like it helps but their actions only lead to hundreds of false leads that distract from the truth. Perhaps the organization is in on it they may act to place at risk girls/women with wealthy families at the direction of the crazed UHD who thinks they are doing good for people.

Prior to 1990 Lucy hightailed it out of town to Vegas and cousin Dan showed up there too eventually they were probably lovers before or he just knew she had money. He may also know certain things but I doubt he was in on it except to stay quiet and they could be together. Or he is simply opportunistic. Lucy blows the money mostly in Vegas gambling and on drugs and she finally ODs. And he either knows or was told about it by Lucy before she dies. Dan tries to extort UHD for more money so he is killed by UBM cleaning up the mess again and dumped in a quarry in Missouri.

In 1990 Julie shows up in the pharmacy and with the fingerprints and this reopens everything of course. Somehow she escaped the family and has been living as a drifter for a while. She does not know her brother is dead or her mother Julie and fears returning to her "real" family that she thinks sold her out to this fake family. Her call and recording was talking about AG Kindt (might be lover of UHD) and him pretending to be her father. She wasn't talking about Tom actually. Kindt was standing right next to Tom in that video. And her mention of her "aunt" is referring to UHD or Lucy not sure which way they convinced her or brainwashed her. In looking into it again Hays and West discover the cover up by Harris. They track him down and kill him in an act of vigilante justice - this is the part they refer to when they say what "they did" in 1990. They may in fact kill UBM also. Hoyt knows what happened but not the details his concern was his daughter and he keeps her out of it they got some justice and it goes dormant again.