Deputy Travis Junior said:

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So excited about all of this. There's going to be a bounty of coaching talent hitting the market in 3-4 years when they all get out of jail.

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I smell a "The Longest Yard" spinoff movie!

Pumpkinhead said:

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Interesting read from Sports Illustrated taking the viewpoint that this is a ridiculous overreach by the Federal Government.

https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2017/09/29/college-basketball-corruption-scandal

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The scandal has already likely cost Rick Pitino his job at Louisville, and you can be sure he's only the first of the significant dominoes to fall because this was, you will pardon the expression, a fullcourt press. The FBI got wiretap warrants and bugged the coaches and the shoe company reps. The investigation began when the Feds flipped a shady financial adviser in Pittsburgh who cooperated to keep from spending decades studying institutional dining at one of our finer federal establishments. (The latest reports have Nike in the crosshairs, too, which should surprise approximately nobody.) But, as loud and garish as this announcement was, the whole matter simply reeks of prosecutorial overreach and show-pony justice. It is intriguing to speculate why that might be.

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What the FBI did, and with our money, too, is to turn into the NCAA's enforcement division and weaponize the ridiculous NCAA rulebook through the federal criminal justice system. Now, paying an athlete can do more than cost you a trip to the Outback Bowl. It can send you to the federal sneezer for a few years. This is a preposterous state of affairs.

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It would be interesting to see a breakdown of the federal laws that writer thinks should be enforced and which laws ought to just be ignored.

Pumpkinhead said:

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So, what are the betting odds that Pearl more or less says 'I'm shocked, just shocked to find out this was going on'?

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I guess Pearl lawyered up.

West Point Aggie said:

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eb93 said:

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Who knew Bobby Petrino would be the less embarrassing major program coach at Louisville?

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Petrino was just a cooter-chaser...hell of a coach, bit of a sleaze ball...Pitino is in an entirely different level

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He's violated no NCAA rules... that we know of.

Pumpkinhead said:

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This right on top of the softball scandal make it a no brainer

Bunk Moreland said:

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Pumpkinhead said:

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This right on top of the softball scandal make it a no brainer

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Bruce Pearl is not in a good spot right now:

1) Assistant Coach arrested by FBI and will face prison time if convicted.
2) AD who hired him will soon be terminated.
3) Top recruit for 2018 just de committed.
4) Pearl is carrying around baggage from prior NCAA violations involving recruiting.
5) In three years as coach, hasn't shown much positive progress on the court.

Doesn't look good for Pearl.

Really good read in my opinion, discussing several aspects of this:

https://www.si.com/college-basketball/2017/09/29/10-pressing-questions-answers-college-basketball-recruiting-scandal-corruption

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Some people are confusing illegal activities with NCAA violations. If a federal crime was committed like bribes and kickbacks, the Feds certainly are within their proper authority to deal with it.

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Bribes and kick backs are ok with the NCAA obviously since the same teams keep racking up the wins for decades. How does this make THEM look. Like they really are, a bunch of pawns to keep the powers that be in place.

If this happens (NCAA broom comes out declaring a large number of players ineligible) then wow indeed. Depending on what players could have a real impact on next season for several programs.

One 2017 recruit that for sure seems screwed as of tonight is that 5-star Bowen kid. He might as well move to Dallas right now and start working out with Michell Robinson.

CactusThomas said:

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I mean, as a group we are pretty stupid.

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I chuckled.

Clearly the fix is to not pay the staff who cheats with federal funds...

Notice served to Pitino:

Now it's the university's turn to play dumb to it all

Hop said:

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Some people are confusing illegal activities with NCAA violations. If a federal crime was committed like bribes and kickbacks, the Feds certainly are within their proper authority to deal with it.

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The whole "cheating with federal funds" angle is quite a stretch. It is effectively turning the NCAA rule book in to the Federal criminal code for any institution that accepts federal grants or loans. The universities involved would have a good case for breach of contract, but there's no public harm done when someone willingly pays someone else for something, unless one equates the NCAA's amateurism mystique as some sort of "moral necessity" like prohibition of prostitution or street drugs (don't get me started). This whole thing smells like a publicity grab by the Feds trying to get involved in things that people actually pay attention to.

https://mises.org/blog/ncaa-violations-are-now-federal-crimes

chimpanzee said:

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Hop said:

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Some people are confusing illegal activities with NCAA violations. If a federal crime was committed like bribes and kickbacks, the Feds certainly are within their proper authority to deal with it.

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The whole "cheating with federal funds" angle is quite a stretch. It is effectively turning the NCAA rule book in to the Federal criminal code for any institution that accepts federal grants or loans. The universities involved would have a good case for breach of contract, but there's no public harm done when someone willingly pays someone else for something, unless one equates the NCAA's amateurism mystique as some sort of "moral necessity" like prohibition of prostitution or street drugs (don't get me started). This whole thing smells like a publicity grab by the Feds trying to get involved in things that people actually pay attention to.

https://mises.org/blog/ncaa-violations-are-now-federal-crimes

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I think there are a lot of states that have laws on the books regarding companies and institutions making influence payments, bribes, and kickbacks. Don't think there are any federal laws on the books of this nature other than the foreign corrupt practices act. This is from 15 minutes of internet research so someone please correct if wrong.

chimpanzee said:

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Hop said:

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Some people are confusing illegal activities with NCAA violations. If a federal crime was committed like bribes and kickbacks, the Feds certainly are within their proper authority to deal with it.

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The whole "cheating with federal funds" angle is quite a stretch. It is effectively turning the NCAA rule book in to the Federal criminal code for any institution that accepts federal grants or loans. The universities involved would have a good case for breach of contract, but there's no public harm done when someone willingly pays someone else for something, unless one equates the NCAA's amateurism mystique as some sort of "moral necessity" like prohibition of prostitution or street drugs (don't get me started). This whole thing smells like a publicity grab by the Feds trying to get involved in things that people actually pay attention to.

https://mises.org/blog/ncaa-violations-are-now-federal-crimes

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The assistant coaches were arrested because they work for a federally funded institution and solicited off-the-books bribes, which is illegal.

The Adidas guys were arrested because they were money laundering. You can't expect the Feds to ignore an executive at a publically traded Fortune-500 company engaged in money laundering.

The FBI wasn't looking for this stuff. They stumbled into it because of another investigation. But they were totally within their authority to arrest people once they did.

Pumpkinhead said:

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chimpanzee said:

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Hop said:

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Some people are confusing illegal activities with NCAA violations. If a federal crime was committed like bribes and kickbacks, the Feds certainly are within their proper authority to deal with it.

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The whole "cheating with federal funds" angle is quite a stretch. It is effectively turning the NCAA rule book in to the Federal criminal code for any institution that accepts federal grants or loans. The universities involved would have a good case for breach of contract, but there's no public harm done when someone willingly pays someone else for something, unless one equates the NCAA's amateurism mystique as some sort of "moral necessity" like prohibition of prostitution or street drugs (don't get me started). This whole thing smells like a publicity grab by the Feds trying to get involved in things that people actually pay attention to.

https://mises.org/blog/ncaa-violations-are-now-federal-crimes

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The assistant coaches were arrested because they work for a federally funded institution and solicited off-the-books bribes, which is illegal.

The Adidas guys were arrested because they were money laundering. You can't expect the Feds to ignore an executive at a publically traded Fortune-500 company engaged in money laundering.

The FBI wasn't looking for this stuff. They stumbled into it because of another investigation. But they were totally within their authority to arrest people once they did.

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I'm pretty sure all of the big six conference schools represented by the arrested coaches have profitable athletic departments, or at very least, their men's basketball program is not siphoning money off of their general funds.

I'm not sure what constitutes a bribe in this case, though I am admittedly ignorant of the precise legal distinction. They are certainly acting against the stated rules that they agreed they would follow, but I see bribery as getting cash to act against the fiduciary duty you are presumed to uphold. In this case, that fiduciary duty is limited to obedience to the NCAA's rules. There's nothing inherently criminal about being a biased adviser for shoes/schools/agents that I am aware of.

You could have an equivalent federal indictment for violating the bagel rule or buying a kid a plane ticket to his mom's funeral. Those guys should be fired and the NCAA should sanction the schools if everyone wants to follow the NCAA's rules, but I don't see criminal fraud there without the indirect tie-in of federal funding of the universities in general. Someone steering federal grants to their brother in law's company is one thing, steering Adidas' money to a kid's family is something else.

The Adidas guy was clearly trying to hide what he was doing, but apart from any tax evasion involved, his efforts were aimed at marketing his brand. Adidas probably has a clause in its contracts that it won't abet NCAA violations, but again that's a civil matter.

free_mhayden said:

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But like PH said, what's the alternative? The FBI knowing that Adidas is bribing state employees but just keeping quiet on it because it's not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things?

They can't just ignore it.

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It's pretty easy to ignore if you don't start the investigation in the first place, somebody chose to do that.

Having wildly popular and profitable development leagues managed by "state employees" is ridiculous to begin with. But I'm still searching for the harm done outside of the arrangements that NCAA institutions selectively pretend to operate under among themselves. The only harm is under a private agreement, you could remedy that in civil court and blow the whole thing up if you want and compel records in discovery, but very few want to bite that hand.

PJYoung said:

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chimpanzee said:

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free_mhayden said:

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But like PH said, what's the alternative? The FBI knowing that Adidas is bribing state employees but just keeping quiet on it because it's not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things?

They can't just ignore it.

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It's pretty easy to ignore if you don't start the investigation in the first place, somebody chose to do that.

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But they weren't investigating this - it fell into their laps when they were investigating something else. Were they supposed to ignore money laundering? Really?

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The closest thing to money laundering that I saw was the Adidas guy falsifying purchase orders to get the payments made (which is, at worst, defrauding his employer). Maybe I missed something.

Money laundering as I understand it is taking earnings from illegal activity and making it appear from a legitimate source. In this case (limited by my less than comprehensive awareness of the details) nothing was earned illegally, that is, against a criminal law, just in conflict with NCAA rules. The "laundering" is to create a buffer between the school and its players/recruits to avoid NCAA sanctions, not any state or federal law.

I am not sure what the burden on investigators is in such a case when none of the parties involved are claiming to be harmed.

chimpanzee said:

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The closest thing to money laundering that I saw was the Adidas guy falsifying purchase orders to get the payments made (which is, at worst, defrauding his employer). Maybe I missed something.

Money laundering as I understand it is taking earnings from illegal activity and making it appear from a legitimate source. In this case (limited by my less than comprehensive awareness of the details) nothing was earned illegally, that is, against a criminal law, just in conflict with NCAA rules. The "laundering" is to create a buffer between the school and its players/recruits to avoid NCAA sanctions, not any state or federal law.

I am not sure what the burden on investigators is in such a case when none of the parties involved are claiming to be harmed.

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Is it? I think Adidas would have been happy to sponsor Bowen for $100k on the up and up, I dont think they were defrauded at all. The fraud is not designed to defraud adidas, it is designed by adidas to hide the paper trail from #1 the school and its NCAA enforcement apparatus and #2 from the NCAA. The criminal complaints seem to assert that it is the institutions (entities that receive federal funding) that are the victims of corruption by their employees and the shoe companies.

JJxvi said:

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chimpanzee said:

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The closest thing to money laundering that I saw was the Adidas guy falsifying purchase orders to get the payments made (which is, at worst, defrauding his employer). Maybe I missed something.

Money laundering as I understand it is taking earnings from illegal activity and making it appear from a legitimate source. In this case (limited by my less than comprehensive awareness of the details) nothing was earned illegally, that is, against a criminal law, just in conflict with NCAA rules. The "laundering" is to create a buffer between the school and its players/recruits to avoid NCAA sanctions, not any state or federal law.

I am not sure what the burden on investigators is in such a case when none of the parties involved are claiming to be harmed.

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Is it? I think Adidas would have been happy to sponsor Bowen for $100k on the up and up, I dont think they were defrauded at all. The fraud is not designed to defraud adidas, it is designed by adidas to hide the paper trail from #1 the school and its NCAA enforcement apparatus and #2 from the NCAA. The criminal complaints seem to assert that it is the institutions (entities that receive federal funding) that are the victims of corruption by their employees and the shoe companies.

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Right, which I don't really get. Aside from it being in the shadows and perhaps having poor execution, the schools were beneficiaries of the coaches' actions, except in as much as it put them in dutch with the NCAA.

Maybe I'm just too cynical in presuming that member institutions don't actually take the NCAA's rules seriously. Given their selective enforcement, I think its a fair assumption on my part.