Some discussions recently brought this to mind. It's an excerpt from "I Taste Red" (thanks to bularry for suggesting it. Highly recommended to anyone interested in digging a bit deeper into wine, taste and why we like what we like).

This is from the beginning of Chapter 5 "Individual Differences in Flavor Perception"

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Consider this scenario: two wine critics walk into a bar offering "natural" wines, made using natural fermentation, with little intervention in the winemaking process. The first, a pugnacious middle-aged guy, snatches the list from the bartender, scans it briefly, and passes it to the second, a placid but determined looking younger woman. "I cannot believe you can drink any of this poison," he says. "it is just filthy. A complete joke. The emperor has no clothes." Her eyes rise to heaven for a moment, but he fails to spot the gesture because he is busy rooting around in his bag for a bottle he has brought along. "Let me pick something that might surprise you," she responds. The wine arrives: a natural Grenache from South Africa with no added sulfites. The wine is poured, pale red in the glass, and with a faint haziness. She takes a sip; it is fresh, sapid, slightly leafy, with a lively vibrant red cherry fruit, dept fresh with keen acidity. Her colleague wrinkles his brow, and shakes his head. "Thin, weedy, light, and without any concentration," is his verdict. He calls for some fresh glasses and pours the wine he has brought. It is purple-black and dense, with immense concentration. They both take a sip. He smiles, convinced of victory. She spits out the wine ostentatiously and plonks her glass back firmly on the table. "Undrinkable," is her verdict. "But this is an immense wine," he replies. "No. Oak, over-ripeness, soupy texture," she says. "It is just big: huge, in fact. A complete caricature of a wine. I cannot drink that." Neither of them will budge. There is now way they can agree. They part, each convinced that the other is utterly crazy in their tastes.

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This is an extreme example, but I think we all run into both of these people (I may actually be one of them from time to time ) And really I think they're both missing out on much to enjoy in wine.

Thoughts?

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but the variety from around the world is just fun for me to look through.

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This is what impressed me most. I thought their Italian section was very good and beyond Tuscan and Piedmont regions. They had offerings from the south, like Campania and Calabria. Those are harder to find and it was nice to have the variety.

Changing topics...in OR now and have enjoyed White Rose, De Ponte, and Elizabeth Chambers. Very delighted with the first two.

I love Total Wine. For the stuff I buy they are the lowest price in town - sometimes 30% lower than the competition.

For the third straight year we made The Daily Meal's "101 Best Wineries in America List"

101 Best Wineries in America

Congrats, and highest in Texas if I'm not mistaken.

But man, that website needs some work....

htxag09 said:

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Congrats, and highest in Texas if I'm not mistaken.

But man, that website needs some work....

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81. Fall Creek
74. Pheasant Ridge
55. Inwood Estates.


Yes. Yes it does! We were just discussing that yesterday. And it needs more than "work", I'm thinking a total rewrite from a different vendor.

A funny from the Jim Duane podcast: what is the difference between Grenache and the clap? You can get rid of a case of the clap.

*edited to remove dubious comment

A better title would have been "101 Interesting Wineries of America."

With all due respect, that kinda sounds like wanting to pick a fight. I mean "dubious" c'mon. How many of the wines on the list have you personally tried? I would submit that sans that, there's no basis for that judgment.

It is what it is, which is an opinion.

Yours differs. And if your taste is that big, over-extracted, inky Napa Cabs are the "best" then I'm sure this list isn't your best, but no one should call your opinion of "best" as "dubious".

"Best" is a subjective term in all cases. Here's what the daily meal chose based upon:

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Narrowing our national enological wealth down to a mere 101 wineries, then, is a daunting task each year. To help us meet the challenge, we reach out annually to experts in the field, from all over the country sommeliers, wine writers and bloggers (including our own contributors, of course), chefs and restaurateurs, and of course the wine-savvy editors at The Daily Meal asking them to nominate their favorite wineries (as many as ten per person) and to tell us what they like about them...

...This year we invited about 60 of these professional (or passionate amateur) wine-lovers to weigh in. ...

Collating the nominations, we ended up with a list of more than 250 wineries, old and new, large and small, many of them nominated numerous times. We factored in our own tasting notes of recent vintages, consulted the leading wine publications and newsletters, and considered recent awards from prestigious competitions, and narrowed the choices down to 101.

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That's as reasonably rigorous a procedure as you could want, so... denigrate all you want, but I'm proud that we've made the list three years in a row. And there's some pretty good company on the list.

if your taste is that big, over-extracted, inky Napa Cabs are the "best"

Pretty sure that's most of this board

That's certainly me! Although since I had to scale back my drinking to next to nothing, I found that I crave Pinot a lot more these days. For a steak dinner (my favorite), give me a Napa cab. Any other time, burgs/pinot.


Of course champagne and Yquem have their spot in my home for super special occasions.

Water Turkey07 said:

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if your taste is that big, over-extracted, inky Napa Cabs are the "best"

Pretty sure that's most of this board

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No doubt.

However, the more I learn, and the more people in the industry I'm exposed to, the more I'm moving away from that.

During some presentations that's even brought up. Most of us start with some kind of cheap, sweet wine when young. We then work our way up to these huge, manipulated, extracted Cabs.

The thing is most of us stop there. If you can power through that, there's an entire world of great wines! As BSD mentioned, a good Pinot (and with new world and Burgundian being so different, there's plenty of choice) can be just the thing some times.

And Sauternes is sex in a bottle.

Champagne runs a huge range of tastes and sensations as well.

Also, especially here in Texas, we are exposed to such a tiny fraction of the world's wines. Somebody posted the details of how it works awhile back on this thread. There are great wines all over the world. With something like 40,000 different wine grape varieties on the planet, that's a lot of wine!

And, even rose is getting popular and some excellent ones are available. I'm not quite there yet though...

LOL. Speaking of big cabs, the 2013 J. DAVIES "JAMIE" CABERNET just released email this morning.

Three headed this way...

I find the implication that "stopping" at Cabernet is somehow less refined or educated to be a tad snobbish. I'm sure you didn't intend that, but that's my perception. Over-extracted carries negative connotations. But that may be exactly what someone prefers, even after working their way through geography, varietal, producer, and vintages

I'm glad your place made the list; any recognition for Texas wine is fantastic in my opinion. But let's also recognize that your defense of this list is open to some confirmation bias. The way I read it, Stagecoach wasn't attacking any of the wineries on the list, but the idea of some that were left off.

Personally, I tend to agree with that, especially when I think they may be trying to reach a little bit for geographical variety as a storyline. I don't think all of the best wineries are in Napa, for example. But some that they left off are widely acclaimed as some of the best in the world, not just the country. Tell me a winery in Grand Junction is better than some of those left off and I have to really question their definition of best. Not their selection of contributors, just their editorial decision on the final list.

Fair points. I just reject the word "dubious" as it implies purposeful deception.

And as to "snobbish", huh? My next post was sharing a new order for one those very over extracted wines. Analogous to your point about that list, it's the idea of the wines left out when I restrict myself to big, extracted cabs that is the point. Isn't it just as "snobbish" to tout that those big cabs are the be all and end all of wine? We all like wine. We share ridiculously large purchases of wine. How on earth is it "snobbish" to share new tasting experiences? You're reading things that aren't there.

All lists are used to sell magazines or web clicks or whatever. This one is no different. I'm still proud we've made it three years running.

I've been to that winery in Grand Junction. It's good, but lets not pretend that it's a Top 100 in the US. Having that on there and a single one from New Mexico (which I have admittedly not been to, though have had a taste) seems to indicate that the editorial boards were factoring in "representative" wineries into their rankings. That would at least beg the question if something is truly "the best" or really just "the best of a bunch". That's not to say being on that list isn't something to be proud of, but just because Shane Lechler is the best punter of all time, that doesn't mean he's a better football player than some guys that have never been to the Pro Bowl.

It would be fun to personally visit all of these to offer my direct experience, of course.

I was typing my post when your next post on the cab release was posted. It wasn't meant to be an attack on your post specifically. There is an anti-cab movement out there that I find amusing. Broader exposure to industry folks may not change someone's love for or preference for 2x4 to the face Napa cabs. There's a hint of that in the over-celebration of geographical variety. My point regarding Grand Junc, for example, remains

*note - given my proximity to Grand Junction, I'm certainly going to try some from that winery.

You and I have some shared tastes, no dispute there. Something about this list puts me a bit on tilt, though. Perhaps it's the the methodology, or maybe it's just the crappy website. Either way, I'm not slamming the inclusion of your winery, nor am I suggesting any on there are particularly unworthy. They have to cater to a diverse readership and I understand that. Something is just a bit off about this particular list. And that comes from an amateur whose time (and money) spent exploring wine is getting a bit ridiculous.

FarmerJohn said:

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I've been to that winery in Grand Junction. It's good, but lets not pretend that it's a Top 100 in the US. Having that on there and a single one from New Mexico (which I have admittedly not been to, though have had a taste) seems to indicate that the editorial boards were factoring in "representative" wineries into their rankings. That would at least beg the question if something is truly "the best" or really just "the best of a bunch". That's not to say being on that list isn't something to be proud of, but just because Shane Lechler is the best punter of all time, that doesn't mean he's a better football player than some guys that have never been to the Pro Bowl.

It would be fun to personally visit all of these to offer my direct experience, of course.

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Agree with this as well

Wouldn't this discussion be more fun in person with a bunch of open bottles?

Yes it would. I'll sit in the back and listen quietly (and drink of course).

cecil77 said:

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LOL. Speaking of big cabs, the 2013 J. DAVIES "JAMIE" CABERNET just released email this morning.

Three headed this way...

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Bleh, I can't stand Shramsberg's attempts at Cab.

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given my proximity to Grand Junction, I'm certainly going to try some from that winery.

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Well, I was going to recommend Canyon Wind but they are closed. Only other place (other than 2 Rivers) that jumps to mind is Carlson. I liked their Cab Franc as a pizza wine. It's a little heavy on the pepper but with a good char on the pizza it's pretty good.

There are a lot of other wineries as well but fruit wine seems popular in the Grand Junction area. (Carlson had a few.) I generally dislike sweet wines, so this wasn't great for me. Overall, the region isn't worth it for a wine destination, but there is a lot of other outdoor activities in the area as well. As part of an bigger trip, visiting those wineries is a lot of fun.

AG 07 said:

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cecil77 said:

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LOL. Speaking of big cabs, the 2013 J. DAVIES "JAMIE" CABERNET just released email this morning.

Three headed this way...

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Bleh, I can't stand Shramsberg's attempts at Cab.

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I've enjoyed them.

Had the J Davies 2013 just last week and thought it fine.

Curious, what don't you like?

And just to appease some of the Napa people I seem to have offfended this week, we just opened a 2013 N&N Quarry Vineyard...

cecil77 said:

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AG 07 said:

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cecil77 said:

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LOL. Speaking of big cabs, the 2013 J. DAVIES "JAMIE" CABERNET just released email this morning.

Three headed this way...

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Bleh, I can't stand Shramsberg's attempts at Cab.

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I've enjoyed them.

Had the J Davies 2013 just last week and thought it fine.

Curious, what don't you like?

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I am not a very sophisticated wine drinker, I don't do well with the buzz words, I just like stuff or don't like stuff. When we visited shramsburg I asked the wife to sign us up for the sparkling club because I really enjoyed it, and frankly wanted to venture out into sparkling with something we liked. She accidentally signed up for j Davies (one too many glasses I think) and when the first shipment came I said screw it and allowed them to come for about 6 months before switching the membership to sparkling.

Every bottle was just kinda meh. Nothing blew us away, but nothing was terrible. On the flip side some of their shramsberg wines have left us floored. For the price I couldn't justify the j Davies as I would never reach for a bottle again and I believe that was the "telling" for me.

Fair enough. We're in that same club and have enjoyed it. The lower level "JD" is (for us) a good $35 cab. The J Davies Cab is about $85. I've not opened the $200 Jamie Cab yet. I will say that the club Pinots are "meh" for me and there's a few more of them shipped than I like. And.... they don't actually produce the Pinots, they're buying it from someone.

And that sort of hedonic tasting ( I just learned that word in the book bulary recommended) i.e. "I like it" or "I don't like it" is actually how humans were genetically programmed to taste!

Ok, I'm a dick. I was talking to the guys at work about Rivers Marie's $25 Sonoma Coast pinot and how it's a great buy. I had actually just given a bottle to one of the guys for him helping me move some stuff. To him, I explained at the time about the mailing list. He had drunk it and thus the conversation at work started. These aren't big wine guys so I never thought they'd act on it.

Well one other guy went to about 3 different stores last night looking for it. Dammit. I'll be giving him one from my stash to make up for it.

Drank the last of my 2015 Calais Cuvee de la Source. It's still the best Texas white I've had. There are French Rhone whites at that price point that are better, but not by much.

I also got my allocation for Linne Calodo and Sanguis today. Happy happy joy joy.

What are those?

Two wineries that predominantly use Rhone varietals in Paso Robles and Santa Barbara, respectively. If you like Alban and Saxum, you need to get on these lists.

HTownAg98 said:

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Two wineries that predominantly use Rhone varietals in Paso Robles and Santa Barbara, respectively. If you like Alban and Saxum, you need to get on these lists.

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Thanks. I'll take a look!

[analwarning] Rhone varieties[/analwarning]

Damn you.
By the way, we are doing the comparison tasting on the 26th at Inwood.