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pfo
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quote:
Any thoughts on AAPL? Was planning to sell at $110, but after the last couple of days I'm wondering if I should hold a little longer. Do you think it has momentum to keep rising even with a market drop, or is it at a short-term peak?

I just don't see Cook as the answer there in the long haul, so have been trying to find the timing to dump it.


I'm happily holding all my Apple. Great tailwind with the new iPhone 7 coming out and the Samsung phones catching fire plus the stock dropped so meaningfully into the launch. Plus it's been my experience a stock so strongly bucking a market downtrend is a huge positive.
oldarmy1
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quote:
quote:
Any thoughts on AAPL? Was planning to sell at $110, but after the last couple of days I'm wondering if I should hold a little longer. Do you think it has momentum to keep rising even with a market drop, or is it at a short-term peak?

I just don't see Cook as the answer there in the long haul, so have been trying to find the timing to dump it.


I'm happily holding all my Apple. Great tailwind with the new iPhone 7 coming out and the Samsung phones catching fire plus the stock dropped so meaningfully into the launch. Plus it's been my experience a stock so strongly bucking a market downtrend is a huge positive.
oldarmy1
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That's a great chart on bonds Claym. And we know interest rates/fiscal policy is clearly what is the regulator on market action. We have some overseas policy announcements tomorrow into early next week and then our own Fed decision on rates. With every neutral to loosening announcement expect a move back up and if tightening/raise then expect challenge to lower end.
Aggie Oilman
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Hope you got out of CIE oldarmy.
pfo
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Thanks oldarmy
Pasquale Liucci
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Trying over the last 15 mins or so to move to to lower lows within the pattern from Friday to now. Havent seen the volume on the day, just a glance at the prices - 2124 currently.
oldarmy1
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Hope you got out of CIE oldarmy.
actually went with $1.00 puts, but no kidding on it getting punished, right?!
Joseph Parrish
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SN is on track for $8.00.
oldarmy1
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quote:
SN is on track for $8.00.
"Do you ever just get down on your knees and thank God that you know me and have access to my dementia?"
Joseph Parrish
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quote:
quote:
SN is on track for $8.00.
"Do you ever just get down on your knees and thank God that you know me and have access to my dementia?"



This week, yes! Last couple of weeks I was nervous.
oldarmy1
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quote:
quote:
This week, yes! Last couple of weeks I was nervous.

So you want to hold 100% of the shares you bought? The goal should be to hold/plant 50% of your holdings at a "net free" cost. The covered call strategy is working out to end up with reducing your acquisition cost by 75 cents per share on the 2000 shares covered. Not sure what the $1500 premium earned does across all of your shares but you should figure that out as well. I imagine you are close to a pure double cost to current valuation with that premium. PLANT your free holdings and never look back. Free your mind!
PhilCantone
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Cliff notes: always cash out to minimize loss and maximize profits.
aggiemetal
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quote:
quote:
This week, yes! Last couple of weeks I was nervous.
So you want to hold 100% of the shares you bought? The goal should be to hold/plant 50% of your holdings at a "net free" cost. The covered call strategy is working out to end up with reducing your acquisition cost by 75 cents per share on the 2000 shares covered. Not sure what the $1500 premium earned does across all of your shares but you should figure that out as well. I imagine you are close to a pure double cost to current valuation with that premium. PLANT your free holdings and never look back. Free your mind!
This is the main thing for successful trading no matter your style. Whether you are a technical analysis guy like Randy or lean more to the quant/efficient market type like me (more than one way to skin a cat in this game), the key is strategy and managing winners (and losers for that matter). Randy's main thing is when you get the anticipated pop, clearing usually 50% of shares off the table, like he said setting yourself up for free and clear with the rest if you get continuation and other things to, to lock in some profits even if it blows up. I deal more in short premium in options so I'll manage a 50% winner each time (less if I get 25%-30% really quick) as numerous tastytrade research shows to be the sweet spot in P/L and the W/L column, taking it all off the table and then look for high vol oppty. and set up out to the next expiration cycle or so and reset. Fear, greed/stupidity are the only things that can take you down. Easier said than done, I've done/been all three but once you can be disciplined and mechanical (every time) you'll do well.
redsox34
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AAPL with another big open
oldarmy1
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quote:
AAPL with another big open
Yes...and if markets have some upward bounce it will be on its way to that $120 gap fill. I see several Option services have issued buy alerts on AAPL. I have all of those too built into the formulas.

And everyone tell Jeff (Aggiemetal) thanks for weighing in and to post more!
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aggiemetal
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quote:
Jeff (Aggiemetal) thanks for weighing in and to post more!

Seriously!

I'm one of your old Websider buddies and miss your posts.
thanks man and sorry, been crazy busy since I went full time in June (not just that but all the other chaos trying to get normalized since we moved and trying to get reset)

I've been meaning to get on here but I'll come on here more as things level out (I'm bad about getting ahead of myself and getting over extended on promises, I've done it too many times so that said I'll be less of an ahole when I say, "I'll get here when I get here" LOL )
oldarmy1
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Joseph did you watch that crazy SN spike? $8.37 to over $8.70 in 6 minutes and then dropping quickly back to $8.48 right now. LOL

Found buyers finally at $8.43. When you see a move like that it is either the big money got caught on the wrong side of the trade or it was a short shake. The way you'll know which is if it completely loses the entire gain or if it works back to a new high on volume.
Ha, no I didn't see that. I'm 2 hours behind all of you guys in Texas. I'm glad it's headed back towards $8.00 though!
PArrish - You never indicated if you wanted to keep all your shares or not. If you do then I would suggest either looking to buy back your calls at 15 cents or under OR buying an equivalent number of shares represented by the options (2000). Reason being is the volume basing that just occurred would potentially indicate a low point and move higher with the market rising.

The other strategy is let it play out and if the stock ends below $8.75 then you can simply buy the option back just before close (last minute) at close to real value. In other words if the shares are trading at $8.40 then the $8 calls are going to be 40 cents. Your earned premium would then be $700.
pfo
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AAPL is off to the races!
Joseph Parrish
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quote:
quote:
quote:
Joseph did you watch that crazy SN spike? $8.37 to over $8.70 in 6 minutes and then dropping quickly back to $8.48 right now. LOL

Found buyers finally at $8.43. When you see a move like that it is either the big money got caught on the wrong side of the trade or it was a short shake. The way you'll know which is if it completely loses the entire gain or if it works back to a new high on volume.
Ha, no I didn't see that. I'm 2 hours behind all of you guys in Texas. I'm glad it's headed back towards $8.00 though!
PArrish - You never indicated if you wanted to keep all your shares or not. If you do then I would suggest either looking to buy back your calls at 15 cents or under OR buying an equivalent number of shares represented by the options (2000). Reason being is the volume basing that just occurred would potentially indicate a low point and move higher with the market rising.

The other strategy is let it play out and if the stock ends below $8.75 then you can simply buy the option back just before close (last minute) at close to real value. In other words if the shares are trading at $8.40 then the $8 calls are going to be 40 cents. Your earned premium would then be $700.
Oh, I'm long on oil and gas. I'd definitely like to keep the shares. I actually had options for 30 contracts.
Joseph Parrish
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quote:
quote:
quote:
Joseph did you watch that crazy SN spike? $8.37 to over $8.70 in 6 minutes and then dropping quickly back to $8.48 right now. LOL

Found buyers finally at $8.43. When you see a move like that it is either the big money got caught on the wrong side of the trade or it was a short shake. The way you'll know which is if it completely loses the entire gain or if it works back to a new high on volume.
Ha, no I didn't see that. I'm 2 hours behind all of you guys in Texas. I'm glad it's headed back towards $8.00 though!
PArrish - You never indicated if you wanted to keep all your shares or not. If you do then I would suggest either looking to buy back your calls at 15 cents or under OR buying an equivalent number of shares represented by the options (2000). Reason being is the volume basing that just occurred would potentially indicate a low point and move higher with the market rising.

The other strategy is let it play out and if the stock ends below $8.75 then you can simply buy the option back just before close (last minute) at close to real value. In other words if the shares are trading at $8.40 then the $8 calls are going to be 40 cents. Your earned premium would then be $700.
Do I just buy a put at $0.15 for the 30 contracts?
oldarmy1
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quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Joseph did you watch that crazy SN spike? $8.37 to over $8.70 in 6 minutes and then dropping quickly back to $8.48 right now. LOL

Found buyers finally at $8.43. When you see a move like that it is either the big money got caught on the wrong side of the trade or it was a short shake. The way you'll know which is if it completely loses the entire gain or if it works back to a new high on volume.
Ha, no I didn't see that. I'm 2 hours behind all of you guys in Texas. I'm glad it's headed back towards $8.00 though!
PArrish - You never indicated if you wanted to keep all your shares or not. If you do then I would suggest either looking to buy back your calls at 15 cents or under OR buying an equivalent number of shares represented by the options (2000). Reason being is the volume basing that just occurred would potentially indicate a low point and move higher with the market rising.

The other strategy is let it play out and if the stock ends below $8.75 then you can simply buy the option back just before close (last minute) at close to real value. In other words if the shares are trading at $8.40 then the $8 calls are going to be 40 cents. Your earned premium would then be $700.
Do I just buy a put at $0.15 for the 30 contracts?
No. The calls expire today so you don't want any protective strategy on the options. The odds of SN moving to $8.75 today aren't good so just sit and watch. If you get a quick drop on SN back under $8.20 then place a 15 cent bid to buy back those 30 calls you sold for 75 cents not anything with Puts. Otherwise let it ride and if called out on those 3000 shares you can make decisions on Monday on your go forward strategy.
oldarmy1
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TCK break out confirmation
oldarmy1
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CLF finding its base after the short squeeze to $8.40 area ended. Back down to $5.40. Any weakness next few days is entry level. I took a Sept 30th Call option position at this time.


Joseph Parrish
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quote:
No. The calls expire today so you don't want any protective strategy on the options. The odds of SN moving to $8.75 today aren't good so just sit and watch. If you get a quick drop on SN back under $8.20 then place a 15 cent bid to buy back those 30 calls you sold for 75 cents not anything with Puts. Otherwise let it ride and if called out on those 3000 shares you can make decisions on Monday on your go forward strategy.
So my account doesn't have the appropriate level required to make the trade you suggested. I kind of had to make a decision because it takes 24+ hours to approve a new account level and my options would have expired by then. I did this before you posted this last response. I got on the phone and called etrade to walk me through protecting my 3000 shares.

So here are my transactions:

On Wed Aug 17 I Sold 30 SN Sep 16'16 $8 Calls Executed @ $1.00. (It was $0.75 on the chart, but looks like it executed at $1.00 after looking back at it)

Today I Bought 30 SN Sep 16'16 $8 Calls Executed @ $0.51.

So I protected my shares, and I made some money.
oldarmy1
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Ok, so you made a little under $1500 while your stock retreated. I'd call that a very good initial education on how to use covered calls! Well done! And thanks for clarifying the $1 fill. I was scratching my head on the 75 cents.
Here is technical take on SN. You're playing top of current range now which is why I would never sweat letting the covered call options to play out.



Joseph Parrish
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Ok, so you made a little under $1500 while your stock retreated. I'd call that a very good initial education on how to use covered calls! Well done! And thanks for clarifying the $1 fill. I was scratching my head on the 75 cents.
Yeah, thank you. I'm still not 100% sure of what I'm doing, but this is definitely helping. I need to get better at figuring out those options charts. And I need to make sure I upgrade my account as I go so that I can do all these things to counter if needed.
aggiemetal
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You asked now you got it. Brevity ain't my thing and I tend to post in War and Peace length bursts. Digest and ask questions later, I can't promise a quick reply but I'll get to it. Randy's the only one I'll communicate with during the trade day and it's usually just when market hit's or nears an extreme as his macro reads are spot on (something I honestly can't really do) or if I see something in my novice TA glimpse I want confirmed.

There are more ways to skin a cat in this game and if you make money consistently in outright stocks or even buying options (I don't recommend the latter if you aren't really really good at technical analysis, unless you just like giving away all your money to the other party ). Seriously though, more power to you if those are your style, just outlining my style here and the thought process behind what I do here.

I'll preface this by saying most of what I learned on the options side was from the all free online trading network tastytrade so if you have deeper interest I'll refer you to their awesome site of resources and the awesome beginning option trader platform they built and can use if you have a TDAmeritrade Acct dough. They have archived videos and studies, a learn tab with a glossary that not only defines terms in a concise blurb but also has accompanying videos on the topic. You should also check their market measures archive as they are an awesome place to start. They have a kind of whimsical approach to the network so if you don't have a sense of humor or just a strait line one take it with a grain of salt, the information is nails and literally life changing (as much as you want to work at learning the domain). I'm very loyal to them as they are so accessible, literally answering all emails (they do ask you try and keep it brief b/c of that policy) and even going to bat for you on commissions with TDA (they built the ThinkorSwim platform and sold that company to TDA for a little under a billion). Anyways b/w them and Randy I/you've got some amazing mentors who don't just shoot the bull on the subject but all consistently know how to extract money out of the market and have done so for decades. It's not luck, it's not guessing, it's a skill set.

I've been blessed by GOD to make a living off my passion/hobby and work where I want (today I'm poolside at my moms, and I just paid off our Class C RV so soon I'll be trading in the Rockies and wherever the road takes us as my wife home schools our kids around the USA). I'm content trusting probability and hitting singles and doubles everyday, with the occasional triple and even homer, but mostly slow and steady is my race and I'm usually on the medal stand (I get it, this metaphor sucks and I'm crossing sports I don't even watch but you get the gist ).

I'll do some basic TA (tech analysis) but just for very vague engagement, for me in my ability with it, it's like a map that gets you close but just more a general, gets you to the vicinity more where things are trading relative to it's range and have a rough idea where it might go and I'll use it for future scalps intraday (I'll explain later but it's just my hedge so it doesn't matter it's not perfect, not my money maker just my hedge which will always be outpaced by my core position) . . honestly though for the way I trade my secret is I don't know s * & t and I don't pretend to know s * & t and I don't really care (barring extremes) b/c with short options premium, I win up down or sideways on my core position which is usually naked short puts usually in /ES (S&P futures options) vs. enough short /ES outright futures to balance my delta (always make sure your deltas are weighted, with /ES it's self weighted but when it's not an index based underlying, say you are selling puts in AMZN you can weight it to the SPY or in that case better yet the /NQ since it's in the nasdaq index) . . .anyways I sell puts far from the money (about 2 standard deviations or more out or 95% probability of expiring OTM (out of the money).

Quick elevator pitch on selling options vs. buying options vs. buying/short selling stock
1. Stock buy or shorting--it's by definition a 50/50 proposition, no matter what you thing you know that's the odds
2. Buying Options (buying puts -short, buying calls-long) ou not only have to be right on direction, you have to be right pretty quickly or the theta decay (time decay) that is part of my bread and butter as a premium seller will eat you alive--it works for Randy b/c he doesn't go in unless he's pretty certain based on his TA he's going to get that pop in either direction but for me after years of pissing away money thinking I knew something I rarely touch them, in fact it's usually only when Randy sees something
3. Selling Options ( selling puts is long, selling calls is short)--when you sell an option you don't have to be right immediately or even right at all on direction, you can win up, down or sideways...theta decay (time decay) allows eats at that premium you collect up front once you put it on, when you do this you also ideally put it on when volatility is high so you also have vol crush in your favor, throw in actually being right on direction and that's just icing on the cake

3a THE TRADE OFF here---so everything has a trade off:
1. your risk is theoretically undefined but in honesty you can also have a stock go to zero theoretically odds are low though
2. your max profit is set at entry, while a stock or bought put/call can theoretically run forever you go in with a set max profit, the premium you collect up front---again while that may be a turn off for some if you were in Vegas and you came across a table that offered awesome gains for 95% probability of not losing you'd be parked there all weekend, hell you may never leave . . .you are the house and your only risk are the big outlier moves but as you'll see later, there are ways to hedge your position so you aren't totally exposed be it selling premium in verticals where you can define risk or as I do preferring to be an outright premium seller and cutting down on verticals and iron condor commissions you can just sell outright futures against your puts (appropriately balancing the deltas---either balanced or skewed either way for directional assumption if you choose to play it that way)....you can also sell calls but the skew in premium favor puts heavily so unless vol is really ramped up I don't mess with that side as much as I used too unless I'm selling covered calls in high implied volatility stocks (great for stock that's been beaten up that you'd like to get long, the call in more juiced so it helps lower your basis or in a bad case scenario it greatly reduces downside if the stock keeps tanking--one of the safer market plays out there in any style)


Ideally I put the position on after we have some volatility ramp up. Been pretty awesome since Friday b/c volatility os so ramped up and I can go even "safer" further away to collect same premiums and or collecting premiums at the 95% level still which are way fatter than I'd normally collect

When we were up towards market highs I'd do this strategy with the outright short future perfectly balanced or skewed a little heavier than the puts b/c you knew at some point we'd breakdown and if not the theta decay on my puts would outpace any modest up move. Now that we're down here I'm using the short future some but more balanced towards the letting the puts do their thing (theta decay, vol crush, and any price move my way is just icing on the cake)....when things feel sketchy I'll cover my backside and throw the short future(s) hedge back on and it's good practice scalping them around the position, but I don't care if I really make money on that side (though I've built up good basis since Friday, where I can leave them on and basically be covered for free up to about 20 pts above).

Now that we finally have a two sided market. I'm more aggressively managing the winners, instead of 50% I'll take a good winner pretty quick, b/c good odds we'll swing back down and vol will swing up as will the price action both fattening up short puts to reset with (I was more stingy before in hanging on longer b/c market has been so brutal grinding up for so many years and taking away any offered volatility right back away so quickly). It may happen again soon, but so far it's finally getting the feel that it's here to stay (sorry I probably just jinxed it for everyone and the FED will rip it back up next week and it'll never be allowed a healthy needed correction ). Again though, I don't know jack about direction, in fact the only time I lose money is when I think I do LOL. Randy however, is nails on the big trend and spotting direction in various stocks that hit his screener.


(sure there's lots of typos but i've got to run and I want to post this before it gets deleted)
claym711
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AG
Great post! For those that don't know, you need a ton of capital to sell options naked.
aggiemetal
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nm
aggiemetal
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quote:
Great post! For those that don't know, you need a ton of capital to sell options naked.
true for sure but depends on the product . . . .but not as much as you'd think in the right underlyings

I moved to almost exclusively /ES and short futures options are very reasonable if you can live with slightly wide market (b/w bid and ask) . . .it's way cheaper than the SPX (which yes costs a fortune to do my method) and I like that I can play it around the clock if something happens

but you can consistently hit $1000 plus per week off of $25-30K (which you need $25K anyways for a margin acct) obviously if that's all you have you don't want to be in 100% of your capital (though you'll want to go bigger when VOLATILITY ramps up for you)

. . .depending on how close or far you move from the money (obviously 85% OTM is going to cost more than 95% OTM b/c more risk) but you can sell an /ES for $600-700 on a put that could yield up to $150 (per contract) . . again nice when vol is ramped up b/c you can collect good premium, much farther away than normal and it's going to cost less being really far OTM


of course when vol is ramped up you can go into more defined risk spreads taking advantage of that overstated volatility
======
for smaller accounts yes it's harder to make money . . tastytrade really emphasizes great ROC (return on capital) so a lot of that method definitely helps for smaller account size....verticals, iron condors, even selling puts and buying a really cheap crap one against it (a trick you have to do in an IRA where you aren't margined on short puts and where you aren't allowed to sell calls outright b/c of idiotic antiquated rules)
Comanche_Ag
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DallasAggie2012
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Thanks for all the info! This thread has taught me more than I would have ever imagined and spurred me on to start doing a lot of research into these avenues. I really enjoy you guys sharing your knowledge with us in such an open fashion.
aggiemetal
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dough also has several cool features

they have a follow page with about 18 traders (ranging from novice to experienced) you can follow for free...it has their setups and if you want to do it you can actually hit trade, it will duplicate the trade set up or you can just go in and look at what they did the cool visual trading platform, where you slide the put or call chevron and how that move towards or away from price effects the POP (probability of profit, actually prob of not losing), ROC (return on capital) and the credit/debit you'd receive/pay for putting them on

really cool feature for new options traders or even ones trying to learn new things

they also have the "dougho" where you can go through the learning videos and earn levels of certification ....unless you have experience you may or may not be able to gain but a certain level of options and futures trading clearance from your broker, this in one way to go over that hurdle if it happens to you
oldarmy1
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Dang Jeff...like breaking the dam...now you people are in for it!
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