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NBA & Other Basketball MVP Vote
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Last: 6 yr ago by Iowaggie
He's not chasing states
Mr.Bond said:
I didn't create the statistics dumbass I simply shared what espn said. And I said the WAR is interesting. Right after my post someone shared a link showing WAR is irrelevant for the NBA due to varying factors
Sorry if it seemed like I was hounding you, not my intention. For the record, I don't think WAR is irrelevant I just don't think it's the all-encompassing stat many media members and fans make it out to be.
Oscar finished 3rd in MVP voting the year he averaged a triple-double. This shows people knew that triple-doubles were a garbage way to compare players back then and it still is today.
Not to mention that his team wont win 50 games this year. I find it hard to believe that a ball hogging player who can't get his team to 50 wins or above the 6th seed has any claim to the MVP.
Not to mention that his team wont win 50 games this year. I find it hard to believe that a ball hogging player who can't get his team to 50 wins or above the 6th seed has any claim to the MVP.
He's "ball-hogging" because he creates. You have to put yourself in Donovan's shoes with that roster and ask yourself "if Russ didn't have such a high usage rate, would be be winning more or less?"
Nothing to do with MVP but more a counter to the ball-hog comment. If I have a player like Russ and an lololol rest of the roster I want him have the ball that much. It'd be like if I had MJ on his early Bulls teams.
Nothing to do with MVP but more a counter to the ball-hog comment. If I have a player like Russ and an lololol rest of the roster I want him have the ball that much. It'd be like if I had MJ on his early Bulls teams.
All these guys were star players with crappy rosters around them in these seasons. If you're a coach you have to say get this guy the ball. Obviously it's not correlated to winning because most of these teams were average. But I bet if these guys didn't have the usage they did these teams would have been much worse.
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There were 9 teams in the NBA. Everyone was dropping 30 a game. Wilt averaged 50 and 25 for crying out loud.WES2006AG said:
Oscar finished 3rd in MVP voting the year he averaged a triple-double. This shows people knew that triple-doubles were a garbage way to compare players back then and it still is today.
Not to mention that his team wont win 50 games this year. I find it hard to believe that a ball hogging player who can't get his team to 50 wins or above the 6th seed has any claim to the MVP.
Fair enough. Apologies
AggieSportsGuy said:
He's "ball-hogging" because he creates. You have to put yourself in Donovan's shoes with that roster and ask yourself "if Russ didn't have such a high usage rate, would be be winning more or less?"
Nothing to do with MVP but more a counter to the ball-hog comment. If I have a player like Russ and an lololol rest of the roster I want him have the ball that much. It'd be like if I had MJ on his early Bulls teams.
You are acting as if James has a MUCH better team around him than Russ. The Thunder made it to the WC Finals last year (with KD) and still have plenty of talent.
Both Russ and James had the same number of All Stars supporting them this season. ZERO.
Even if I did buy that James has a better supporting cast than Russ why should that be a deciding factor? We are going to reward Russ because his GM couldn't put a better team around him on the floor?
I think you missed the part where I never mentioned James Harden one time and also said, and I quote, "Nothing to do with MVP but more a counter to the ball-hog comment."
My whole point was that Russ has such a high usage because the Thunder would absolutely suck if he didn't with their current roster. Nothing to do with Harden or the MVP.
My whole point was that Russ has such a high usage because the Thunder would absolutely suck if he didn't with their current roster. Nothing to do with Harden or the MVP.
Are people really using the voting results from an MVP race half a century ago as a precedent for this years competition? Holy ****ing ****
So Rockets fans think (subjectively mind you) that their favorite player should win MVP and other teams fans think a variety of players are worthy of the award.
Glad we worked all that out.
Glad we worked all that out.
Not all Rockets fans. I respect what all of the top-4 candidates have done this season. You can make really good arguments for all of them and people have. At the end of the day though, if you are more than just a casual fan you want your guy to win it. That doesn't mean you cannot recognize that other guys around the league are breaking records and achieving greatness of their own, deeming them "worthy" of being in the conversation.
Couple of good MVP Articles from FiveThirtyEight
The Case For Kawhi Leonard
The Case For James Harden
The Case For Kawhi Leonard
The Case For James Harden
Based on the voting TA-NBA & Other BBall awards the MVP to James Hard. Kawhi is runner up. Westbrook is a distant 3rd. Lebron received a few votes. Finally, we have 1 vote for other. At this point, I have no idea who it would be for. Maybe Thomas?
Definitely for me.aggie1906 said:
Based on the voting TA-NBA & Other BBall awards the MVP to James Hard. Kawhi is runner up. Westbrook is a distant 3rd. Lebron received a few votes. Finally, we have 1 vote for other. At this point, I have no idea who it would be for. Maybe Thomas?
While I don't think he'll win because of his market and lack of shoe and beverage companies hyping him, Kawhi should be the MVP, and I've thought that for a while.
Any voter that votes for Harden over Westbrook primarily because of team record needs to instead cast that vote for Leonard for that same reason. If people want to vote for Russ because of his stats, well, that's fine.
The distance between Kawhi and Harden or Westbrook offensively is relatively small. The distance between Kawhi and Harden defensively is large.
Any voter that votes for Harden over Westbrook primarily because of team record needs to instead cast that vote for Leonard for that same reason. If people want to vote for Russ because of his stats, well, that's fine.
The distance between Kawhi and Harden or Westbrook offensively is relatively small. The distance between Kawhi and Harden defensively is large.
And the distance between Kawhi and Harden offensively is huge. Harden scores more and creates more opportunities for his teammates.
I'm on board with Kawhi if he gets it, but let's not act like his defense being better than Hardens is a big enough gap to overcome Hardens offense being the only reason Houston's system works at all.
I'm on board with Kawhi if he gets it, but let's not act like his defense being better than Hardens is a big enough gap to overcome Hardens offense being the only reason Houston's system works at all.
Wait, you think the offensive gap is bigger than the defensive gap?
Harden dishes out way more assists as he is the point guard in DAntoni's system.
Harden and Kawhi score about the same number of points per minute played.
Kawhi shot significantly better from the field, from three and from the line than Harden did.
While PER is significantly weighted towards offensive stats, Kawhi still had a better PER than Harden.
The distance between Harden and Kawhi on offense is much smaller than the distance between Kawhi and Harden on defense. No one that knows anything about basketball could realistically say otherwise.
Harden and Kawhi score about the same number of points per minute played.
Kawhi shot significantly better from the field, from three and from the line than Harden did.
While PER is significantly weighted towards offensive stats, Kawhi still had a better PER than Harden.
The distance between Harden and Kawhi on offense is much smaller than the distance between Kawhi and Harden on defense. No one that knows anything about basketball could realistically say otherwise.
Well put. Thank you.
Guitarsoup said:
Harden dishes out way more assists as he is the point guard in DAntoni's system.
Harden and Kawhi score about the same number of points per minute played.
Kawhi shot significantly better from the field, from three and from the line than Harden did.
While PER is significantly weighted towards offensive stats, Kawhi still had a better PER than Harden.
The distance between Harden and Kawhi on offense is much smaller than the distance between Kawhi and Harden on defense. No one that knows anything about basketball could realistically say otherwise.
That's insane that a poster thinks that there is some big offensive gap between Kawhi & Harden. As a Spurs fan, I'm not going to say that Kawhi is a better offensive player than Harden (even though it's pretty close), Harden doesn't have as good of a low post game as Kawhi.
LOLDavid_Puddy said:
That's insane that a poster thinks that there is some big offensive gap between Kawhi & Harden. As a Spurs fan, I'm not going to say that Kawhi is a better offensive player than Harden (even though it's pretty close), Harden doesn't have as good of a low post game as Kawhi.
What is funny about that? Harden gets most of his points driving to the basket or pulling up for jump shots. Not with his back to the basket.
Agreed, but that is mainly due to the system he plays in. If he were asked to back down defenders and score that way he would. When James is asked to do so he is generally pretty successful.David_Puddy said:
What is funny about that? Harden gets most of his points driving to the basket or pulling up for jump shots. Not with his back to the basket.
James Harden doesn't have the size, strength, length or post-game repertoire that Leonard has. Other than that, hardin's post game is probably much better than Leonard even though he rarely uses it
Yes, Harden and Kawhi have a huge gap in offense. Harden doesn't ever get wide open 3's from someone driving the lane and dishing. His are all self created. Harden doesn't have any semblance of an inside out game that leads to him cutting the lane for easy layups or being kicked out to while open. Harden spends the majority of the game drawing defenders to set up his teammates and running the pick and roll, and he's the best by far at the latter. If Harden was in a system that was designed to get him open, he would score even more than he does. Instead, he spends a lot of the game as the second or third scoring option, and most of his scores are from creating for himself.. and still puts up more points than Kawhi.
This is not a knock on Kawhi. Harden is just an all around better offensive player.
This is not a knock on Kawhi. Harden is just an all around better offensive player.
mazag08 said:
Yes, Harden and Kawhi have a huge gap in offense. Harden doesn't ever get wide open 3's from someone driving the lane and dishing. His are all self created. Harden doesn't have any semblance of an inside out game that leads to him cutting the lane for easy layups or being kicked out to while open. Harden spends the majority of the game drawing defenders to set up his teammates and running the pick and roll, and he's the best by far at the latter. If Harden was in a system that was designed to get him open, he would score even more than he does. Instead, he spends a lot of the game as the second or third scoring option, and most of his scores are from creating for himself.. and still puts up more points than Kawhi.
This is not a knock on Kawhi. Harden is just an all around better offensive player.
Your argument appears to be based on 2014/2015 Leonard.
I do think Harden is better offensively, but it's not a "huge gap". No one helps off of Leonard anymore and most of his scoring comes off of iso and pick and roll where he's the ball handler. The spurs late game offense is Leonard iso. The average degree of difficulty on his shots is high, yet he's very efficient. I give Harden the edge because he's better at generating open shots both for himself and for teammates, but Leonard is a better tough shot maker and far from the system player you imply.
Then coming back on defense, Harden is an example of what not to do while Leonard is trying for his third straight DPOY.
Simmons rated Kawhi as the #6 offensive player in the league this year. Even if Harden was #1, that is not a huge gap.mazag08 said:
Yes, Harden and Kawhi have a huge gap in offense.
Harden isn't even close to top half of the league in defense, while Kawhi has won two straight DPOYs and the league has taken the unusual change in isolating their best wing away from the action for significant parts of the game to limit Kawhi's impact on the game. Can you name any other time in basketball history where teams willingly ignored their best wing player so that a defensive player couldn't have any impact on the game?
Quote:
Harden doesn't ever get wide open 3's from someone driving the lane and dishing. His are all self created. Harden doesn't have any semblance of an inside out game that leads to him cutting the lane for easy layups or being kicked out to while open.
Spurs don't really have anyone driving the lane and creating assists. No one on the Spurs had 300 assists and no one averaged 5 apg.
Harden still has a lower average in all three shooting categories and his strength is not and has never been spot shooting. It is driving the paint, drawing a foul and getting to the line. At that, he is elite.Quote:
Harden spends the majority of the game drawing defenders to set up his teammates and running the pick and roll, and he's the best by far at the latter. If Harden was in a system that was designed to get him open, he would score even more than he does.
Harden is not at any point the 2nd or 3rd option and has not been the 2nd or 3rd option since he left OKC. Harden has been top 5 in the NBA in FGA, top 3 in 3ptFGA and PPG, and 1st in FTA for the past three seasons. Harden is the primary scoring option.Quote:
Instead, he spends a lot of the game as the second or third scoring option, and most of his scores are from creating for himself.. and still puts up more points than Kawhi.
Harden puts up 1 point more per 36 minutes played in the 2nd fastest Pace in the NBA while Kawhi puts up just 1 point less in the 4th slowest pace. In those 36 minutes each player plans, the Rockets are getting 4.5 more possessions. One more point in 4.5 more possessions. Congrats on scoring so much more.
Harden is a better passer and is better at drawing fouls. He isn't better all around. He is better at certain aspects of offense. And he is also worse at others such as shooting, post game, and turning the ball over. Should be noted that he broke the NBA record for turnovers last year and crushed that record this year. That record stood for almost 40 years.Quote:
This is not a knock on Kawhi. Harden is just an all around better offensive player.
And if you are going to make the argument that Harden deserves it more than Westbrook because Harden broke 50 wins, then you sure can't ignore the fact that Kawhi broke 60 wins for the second straight season this year and the third time in 4 years.
If you need a stop and a score and you can pick anyone to be your primary player for both sides of the ball, you are going with LeBron first, Kawhi second and probably Alex Caruso third.
Lots of people that know basketball better than you or I will decide that. Are you calling Kawhi for MVP? Based on your logic, even with a bias towards offense, I would expect the argument to be between Kawhi and Westrbook, not Westbrook and Harden. I guarantee Kawhi doesn't finish 1st or 2nd. But what do I know?Guitarsoup said:
Harden dishes out way more assists as he is the point guard in DAntoni's system.
Harden and Kawhi score about the same number of points per minute played.
Kawhi shot significantly better from the field, from three and from the line than Harden did.
While PER is significantly weighted towards offensive stats, Kawhi still had a better PER than Harden.
The distance between Harden and Kawhi on offense is much smaller than the distance between Kawhi and Harden on defense. No one that knows anything about basketball could realistically say otherwise.
primomosquito said:Lots of people that know basketball better than you or I will decide that. Are you calling Kawhi for MVP? Based on your logic, even with a bias towards offense, I would expect the argument to be between Kawhi and Westrbook, not Westbrook and Harden. I guarantee Kawhi doesn't finish 1st or 2nd. But what do I know?Guitarsoup said:
Harden dishes out way more assists as he is the point guard in DAntoni's system.
Harden and Kawhi score about the same number of points per minute played.
Kawhi shot significantly better from the field, from three and from the line than Harden did.
While PER is significantly weighted towards offensive stats, Kawhi still had a better PER than Harden.
The distance between Harden and Kawhi on offense is much smaller than the distance between Kawhi and Harden on defense. No one that knows anything about basketball could realistically say otherwise.
I'm not calling anyone for the award. I do think Russ will win, but I think there are great arguments for all four.
But the point I made that you highlighted is unquestionable. Harden is much further from Leonard defensively than Leonard is from Harden offensively. It's really not debatable.
I respect Kawhi and realize that two way players with his ability are extremely rare. That being said, I just think what Harden and Westbrook (even with all his padded rebounds) have done this year clearly place them in a class by themselves and I think the MVP votes will reflect that. In my opinion its Harden, Westbrook...........................Kawhi Lebron.Guitarsoup said:primomosquito said:Lots of people that know basketball better than you or I will decide that. Are you calling Kawhi for MVP? Based on your logic, even with a bias towards offense, I would expect the argument to be between Kawhi and Westrbook, not Westbrook and Harden. I guarantee Kawhi doesn't finish 1st or 2nd. But what do I know?Guitarsoup said:
Harden dishes out way more assists as he is the point guard in DAntoni's system.
Harden and Kawhi score about the same number of points per minute played.
Kawhi shot significantly better from the field, from three and from the line than Harden did.
While PER is significantly weighted towards offensive stats, Kawhi still had a better PER than Harden.
The distance between Harden and Kawhi on offense is much smaller than the distance between Kawhi and Harden on defense. No one that knows anything about basketball could realistically say otherwise.
I'm not calling anyone for the award. I do think Russ will win, but I think there are great arguments for all four.
But the point I made that you highlighted is unquestionable. Harden is much further from Leonard defensively than Leonard is from Harden offensively. It's really not debatable.
Leonard and LeBron are going to get screwed because the voters (and most fans) don't value defense. When you think about who the best players are it's LeBron, Curry and Leonard. The best players this season have been Leonard, LeBron, Harden followed by a mix of half of the GSW, Thomas and lastly Westbrook.
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