Maybe he was just in a playful mood being his birthday and all, but I don't like the sound of this.

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nba/story/_/id/8101059/deron-williams-invites-brooklyn-nets-coach-avery-johnson-party-sources-say

My bad on Chandler

I just have a tough time using it as an end-all-be-all in judging a player when you have guys like Tony Parker, Chauncey Billups, Joe Dumars, Cedric Maxwell, James Worthy, Jo Jo White, Paul Pierce and Dennis Johnson with one.

I don't think it's the end-all-be-all. I think it needs to be looked at in terms of the context of the player. Dirk and Lebron both have enough individual accomplishments - Lebron obviously wins that with a nice cushion - where the distinction between one being a champion and one not becomes a defining feature.

Moot now that Lebron has won a ring.

Just my opinion.

That's a separate discussion and the thread has been derailed some. I'd be happy to discuss it in a new thread.

[This message has been edited by Judge (edited 6/27/2012 11:35a).]

quote:

---

I disagree. Without the ring Lebron was not ahead of Dirk.

---

Karl Malone is worlds better than dirk, and he has no ring

quote:

---

Without the ring Lebron was not ahead of Dirk. He was always the better all-around player but in terms of career accomplishments, at that time I wouldn't have considered Lebron's career better than Dirk's, especially considering Dirk beat Lebron and the superfriends head to head in the Finals.

---

At that point, they had the same number of finals appearances but Lebron was well on the way to his 3rd MVP and had a scoring title and better career FG%, PPG, APG, and SPG. I'm not going to try to talk a Mavs fan into thinking Lebron's career was better than Dirk's, just admit that at worst it was very close.

Nowitzki's best skill is scoring, yet his peak year would be Lebron's 9th best season.

+4.7 PPG
-1.1 RPG
+4.2 APG
+.8 SPG
-.2 BPG
+.9% FG
-4.9% 3PT
-14.4% FT

Nowitzki turns it on in the playoffs... but his best playoff scoring average would be Lebron's 5th best.

[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 6/27/2012 11:42a).]

quote:

---

Karl Malone is worlds better than dirk, and he has no ring

---

I guess that depends on how you're ranking them. When I'm ranking players on an all-time list I'm looking at player talent/ability + career accomplishments.

[This message has been edited by Judge (edited 6/27/2012 11:41a).]

quote:

---

Dirk and Lebron both have enough individual accomplishments

---

Dirk's personal accomplishments are pretty limited compared to Lebron. LeBron is one of the best defensive players in the league, has more All-NBA First Team selections than Dirk, has three MVPs (to Dirk's one) and has a scoring title

quote:

---

Dirk's personal accomplishments are pretty limited compared to Lebron. LeBron is one of the best defensive players in the league, has more All-NBA First Team selections than Dirk, has three MVPs (to Dirk's one) and has a scoring title

---

Why did you deliberately ignore the very next thing I said?

quote:

---

Nowitzki's best skill is scoring, yet his peak year would be Lebron's 9th best season.

---

I guess I'm not sure what your point is with those stats. We all know the Lebron is the better all around player. I've said as much multiple times.

The point I made was, at the time of the thread you linked (Jan 2012), Dirk's championship bolstered his overall resume over Lebron's with regard to an all-time rankings list (the distinction there is important). When you've got two guys who have enough individual accolades to the point of redundancy, their greatness becomes more and more defined by that championship.

quote:

---

I guess that depends on how you're ranking them. When I'm ranking players on an all-time list I'm looking at player talent/ability + career accomplishments.

---

Malone finished his career averaging 24.2/9.8/3.4/1.4/.8.
Dirk is currently at 22.9/8.2/2.6/.9/1.0.

Malone has 2 MVPS (even though he shouldn't have won either) and has is 2nd all time in points scored. Malone was 11-time All-NBA first team (Dirk 4x)

One guy lead his team to a championship, one guy didn't despite playing with one of the top 5 point guards of all time.

[This message has been edited by Judge (edited 6/27/2012 11:52a).]

One guy had an owner that would do and spend anything for a championship in a great city with no income tax, one guy lived in the worst place in the league for a young black millionaire.

quote:

---

One guy had an owner that would do and spend anything for a championship in a great city

---

GS called Dallas a "great city"? I'm preserving this for future use.

quote:

---

One guy had an owner that would do and spend anything for a championship in a great city with no income tax, one guy lived in the worst place in the league for a young black millionaire.

---

How you choose to rationalize the periphery is fine with me. Dirk proved it on the court. Malone got close but never did.

Watching him sell out to the Lakers was tough to watch though.

Dallas or Salt Lake City. Which would you choose?

Top cities in the NBA to live in have to be LA, NYC, Miami. Dallas has to be in the second tier.

I've never been a Dallas hater, it's just no Houston.

how was that tough to watch? He was averaging almost 20 and 10 as a 39 year old, so going to the lakers to potentially start was a brilliant move

quote:

---

Dallas or Salt Lake City. Which would you choose?

Top cities in the NBA to live in have to be LA, NYC, Miami, Chicago

---

IMO

quote:

---

I guess I'm not sure what your point is with those stats. We all know the Lebron is the better all around player. I've said as much multiple times.

The point I made was, at the time of the thread you linked (Jan 2012), Dirk's championship bolstered his overall resume over Lebron's with regard to an all-time rankings list (the distinction there is important). When you've got two guys who have enough individual accolades to the point of redundancy, their greatness becomes more and more defined by that championship.

---

I listed some stats because at the time we all knew that Lebron James was better than Tony Parker and had had a better career, yet Parker had won the finals MVP while sweeping James out of the playoffs. The NBA championship and finals MVP are team awards; all the star can really do is perennially lead his team to the playoffs and make them contenders most years (both players have done that), but actually finishing off the job takes so much help that I don't put much stock in finals MVPs.

Stockton, Malone, and Barkley were great even without titles. Put Michael Jordan in Charlotte and he wouldn't have won a title.

quote:

---

The NBA championship and finals MVP are team awards; all the star can really do is perennially lead his team to the playoffs and make them contenders most years (both players have done that), but actually finishing off the job takes so much help that I don't put much stock in finals MVPs.

---

In the context of ranking players all-time I think the championship is important. The Finals MVP itself isn't that important - the notion of being the best player on the team that won the championship is more significant.

I think Dirk deserves credit for winning the championship with a bunch of good role players as opposed to superstars. Against THE best player of our generation, and another who will go down as one of the best. Since yall are not Dallas fans for the most part, does that gain any special notoriety with you?

Let's get back to the original point here...

The news from NYC about little Avery at the birthday party and seeing Deron around the Nets camp leads me to believe he's going to make a big "let's stay here and build something in Brooklyn" announcement. I don't blame him, but it will make the offseason way more interesting.

With that revelation it seems that DW is leaning towards staying in Brooklyn. But I guess Cuban still has a chance to speak with him directly. Gotta hope he can close the deal.

quote:

---

How you choose to rationalize the periphery is fine with me. Dirk proved it on the court. Malone got close but never did.

---

Based on this, specifically your statement that "Dirk proved it on the court", how do you explain their per game averages in the playoffs?

Malone - pts 24.7, rbs 10.7, a 3.2, FG% 46
Dirk - 25.9, 10.3, 2.6, 46%,

So Dirk is only better in 1 category by 1 point, but he "proved it on the court"? Malone was just as good if not better in the playoffs than Dirk has been.

quote:

---

I think Dirk deserves credit for winning the championship with a bunch of good role players as opposed to superstars. Against THE best player of our generation, and another who will go down as one of the best. Since yall are not Dallas fans for the most part, does that gain any special notoriety with you?

---

Does Malone not deserve credit for going to back to back NBA finals, something Dirk hasn't done, and losing to the best player in NBA history? Not of our generation, not of the last 50 years, but the entire history of the NBA? Does that not gain any special notoriety with you? Especially after I just showed you that Dirk hasn't outperformed Malone in the playoffs?

[This message has been edited by prepyag03 (edited 6/27/2012 1:01p).]

You didn't answer the question.

According to your own logic Prep, players do not get any credit for a season unless they win the championship.

See page 2 of this thread

quote:

---

You didn't answer the question

---

Neither did you...I think what Dirk did, albeit only in one year, was phenominal. he made a stupid, sick run through the playoffs last year that was impressive. Having said that, his playoff numbers virtually mirror Malone's. So to say "Dirk proved it on the court" is a diservice to Malone who has the same numbers.

You want credit for Dirk beating Lebron, but the Mavs beat the Heat. They didn't play one on one, because if they did, James wins 9 out of 10 times. The Mavs had the better team top to bottom. But if that's how you want to view it, does Malone not deserve credit for going to 2 NBA finals and only losing becuase of that phenom we call Jordan?

Dirk would still be ringless if all of his Finals appearances came against Michael Jordan would you agree?

quote:

---

According to your own logic Prep, players do not get any credit for a season unless they win the championship.

See page 2 of this thread

---

I did and what I said was...:

quote:

---

I'm pretty sure they've only won 1 championship, unless a a few of Dirk's 9 first round playoff exits have someone been counted as championship seasons.

---

Please show me where I said you ONLY GET CREDIT IF YOU WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP...don't worry I'll wait...

What I said was that 1 championship season doesn't erase the 8+ first round exits as the higher seed. I'm pretty sure that most teams have the goal each year to win the championship and when they don't, they wouldn't consider that a good year.

Nice try though

"The mavs will end up like the 2004 pistons...one good year "

quote:

---

"The mavs will end up like the 2004 pistons...one good year "

---

Please see post above

The fact that you're so hung up on terminology just shows you have nothing to offer...classic. Next you'll turn into the spelling nazi



[This message has been edited by prepyag03 (edited 6/27/2012 1:22p).]

What did Malone prove on the court in the playoffs? That he wasn't as good as Michael Jordan?


Players Karl Malone knocked out of the playoffs:
Robinson four times
Hakeem three times
Drexler three times
Barkley twice
Payton twice
Shaq twice
Kobe twice
Duncan twice
Garnett once
Webber once
Kemp once
Yao once

Malone wasn't terrible in the playoffs.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 6/27/2012 1:23p).]

quote:

---

Having said that, his playoff numbers virtually mirror Malone's. So to say "Dirk proved it on the court" is a diservice to Malone who has the same numbers

---

For his playoff career, Carmelo has averaged 24.9, 7.4, 3.0, while Kobe has averaged 25.6, 5.1, 4.7. To say Kobe has "proved it on the court" is a disservice to Carmelo, who has the same numbers.

I don't think anyone is saying Malone was bad in the playoffs. Forever on this board, leading your team to the championship was the unltimate trump card. I guess that has changed now.

quote:

---

Please show me how many times Dirk has been slapped out of the playoffs in the first round (NOTE: the majority of those were as the higher seed...Golden State anyone?)

---

quote:

---

doesn't erase the 8+ first round exits as the higher seed

---

in the Dirk era, the Mavs have lost twice in the 1st round when they have been they higher seed. Twice. I don't know where you get "majority" or "8+", but please stop talking out of your ass.