Nice work! How old is he?

I'm jealous of that overhead press. Mine is hot garbage.

Any reason for doing the sumo deadlift over conventional?

We all have a lift that is hot garbage!

My son just turned 14 in September, he's in 8th grade. He's still on the thinner side at just under 6'0" and probably 150-ish right now.

When I first started lifting years ago and competing in powerlifting, all we did was sumo (early 90's). That's what our powerlifting coaches taught us. In fact we'd go to meet's, and most kids did sumo. You'd occasionally see guys doing conventional, but it was more rare. And the guys doing sumo did not understand how the guys doing conventional did what they did and vice-versa. I never really even tried conventional much until I was in my 30's, and I never really gave much thought to one being better than the other, just a little different technique and muscles worked. I don't do a super wide stand either though, it's more moderate.

No one really did deadlift back then (you rarely saw people doing deadlifts at gym's, be it sumo or conventional) unless they were powerlifters. Definitely much different than it is today.

At 6'01" and long legs and tight hips, I've always struggled with conventional. And I've had some disc issues over the years as well, so at this point, I just do what I know I can do that doesn't and don't feel the need to add any unnecessary risk on my lower back. My son is aware of the differences, but I am teaching him what I know for now. And if he decides to switch later on, that's up to him.

I have about the same relative strength in my lifts with squats and OHP being my best and a much stronger squat than my sumo deadlift.

Gotcha! The reason I asked is I know when I was just starting with football in 7th grade, we would do power cleans. Not sure what his future plans are but I think conventional would carry over to some of the lifts he might be asked to do in sports in MS and HS.

I was similar to you when I used to do sumo - I wouldn't go very wide like a lot of people you see.

Just having any foundation in form and technique is great though. It's amazing to me how poor the instructions I hear some kids getting regarding lifting at school. It's almost scary.

my 7th grader is just doing a bunch of work on very light bands and some landmine squats through his school. No freeweight stuff until 9th. Kiddo shoulder pressed what they had them doing for landmines and the coach was like "hey, we're not pressing that like that....wait a sec...you can press that?"

...hence why having the home gym is nice. We've eased up midseason since he plays basketball on weekends and one practice a week with his club team too, but we had started in the summer doing squats, bench, incline press, rows, pulldowns and shoulder work with freeweights and machines. I stink at /hate cleans myself or I'd teach him.

What's some good ways to break through plateaus that y'all utilize? I've been lifting on the heavy side for over a year now - around 6-10 rep/set. Sometimes 4 reps. Strength and size stopped increasing a while back, so I upped my calories slowly, and noticed maybe a little improvement, but not much. I'm at the point where if I eat anymore I'll feel sick. So was curious on thoughts.

I'm about to start higher rep ranges and lower weights for a few weeks and see how that goes. But I'm still sticking with the big compound movements (front/back squat, deadlift, DB incline/flat bench, rows, lat pulldown, and a little bit of smaller isolation work). Should I lay off the big compound movements for a while and go to machines, or more isolation work to just change something up a bit? Or you think rep ranges or volume adjustment would be better?

Agree!

I'd incorporate a lot more 3x3, 4x3, or even 3x2 - depending on the type of lift. If your goal is to lift more on a compound lift like bench/squat, I'd keep the reps much lower.

Do you do any tempo reps? I try to incorporate tempo reps on squat and bench. I can use it both as a warm up (squat) or incorporate it into my working sets (bench). Slow and controlled, with the slower the better.

How's your sleep been? Best improvements I have had are when I have really prioritized sleep. I always thought diet was the biggest impact for me but sleep time and quality seems to really launch recovery and repair.

Not sure where you're at in your lifting journey, but if you're past the noob gainz I would look at Madcow, Texas Method, and 5/3/1 and run one of those for about 3 months and see how you feel.

Yeah - I have a hard time equating "lifting heavy" with a 6-10 rep range. Anything over 5 reps on the main compound lifts for me feels like cardio lol

Yep, my workouts are long enough as it is; going over 6 reps means quite a long workout with all the rest ha ha.

I do this 5/3/1 would be a good change of pace. I am thinking myself of getting back onto it.

Stick with the compound movements. Change how your are doing them...

Use chains, bands, switch to box squats, deadlift at a deficit, pause reps, etc.

bigtruck - I know you've been at the fitness game for a long time. You, I suspect, though I don't know you, that you are at the point where you are getting close to your genetic capability. There were times that I would of traded years of my life for 10 more pounds on any lift. My point is that you may have a struggle for any strength gains. Unfortunately, there will become a time in your life that there is going to come a time in your lift that you will struggle to just keep what you have.

I'd bet money your diet is spot on. I'd bet money your form is pretty dam good. I'd bet money you work ethic while you are lifting is pretty intense.

With that - I'd bet you are, like I said, going to struggle for gains.

Then there is always gear (vitamin T)...

CC09LawAg said:

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Yeah - I have a hard time equating "lifting heavy" with a 6-10 rep range. Anything over 5 reps on the main compound lifts for me feels like cardio lol

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I had the same attitude when I was younger.

I ONLY do stuff in 10+ rep range now. Except deadlifts...still finish those at 5.

Your joints will thank you later...

Now that said, I do some work off only one set on an exercise. Like say to add shoulder work on a push day where I really want to focus on my chest. I may do one set (after warmups of course) on shoulder press that I do ALL OUT for 10-15 reps. Or I may add one set to failure of front raises, side raises, and reverse flys to a chest day to give my shoulders some work without adding much volume.

Oh I know that day will come.

I tell myself since I was lazy and fat for 10 years that I saved myself a decade of wear and tear on my joints, so maybe I've bought myself some time to lift heavy

CC09LawAg said:

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Gotcha! The reason I asked is I know when I was just starting with football in 7th grade, we would do power cleans. Not sure what his future plans are but I think conventional would carry over to some of the lifts he might be asked to do in sports in MS and HS.

I was similar to you when I used to do sumo - I wouldn't go very wide like a lot of people you see.

Just having any foundation in form and technique is great though. It's amazing to me how poor the instructions I hear some kids getting regarding lifting at school. It's almost scary.

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You're not wrong about carry over from deadlifts to cleans. I never did full cleans when I was young and playing football. Although we did do hang cleans in off-season training. Cleans are very technical and and you really need some good coaching to learn how to do them properly (probably why I've never really done them consistently).

My son probably won't be playing sports, outside of his desire to compete in powerlifting. He played rec baseball for a number of years, but then got away from him Did Taekwondo for awhile as well. He goes to a large school and has never had much interest in football, basketball, track, etc. And that's fine. He's got other extra-curriculars that he enjoys and keep him busy (very active in scouts).

I'm just trying to help put him on the right path and teach him the basics.

aggiegolfer03 said:

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CC09LawAg said:

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Yeah - I have a hard time equating "lifting heavy" with a 6-10 rep range. Anything over 5 reps on the main compound lifts for me feels like cardio lol

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I had the same attitude when I was younger.

I ONLY do stuff in 10+ rep range now. Except deadlifts...still finish those at 5.

Your joints will thank you later...

Now that said, I do some work off only one set on an exercise. Like say to add shoulder work on a push day where I really want to focus on my chest. I may do one set (after warmups of course) on shoulder press that I do ALL OUT for 10-15 reps. Or I may add one set to failure of front raises, side raises, and reverse flys to a chest day to give my shoulders some work without adding much volume.

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Doing week after week of lower reps and heavy weights definitely takes its toll on me. That's partly why I do what I do. Our 7 week cycle on the main lifts starts with 5 sets of 10 (for week 1), with each set getting heavier, all based off the one rep max. Then week two is 1 set of 10 and 5 sets of 8. Week 3 is 10, 8, 6, 6, 6, 6. And goes progressively lower reps and higher weights until you basically max out again at week 7 (set for 10, 5, 3, 1, 1, 1).

Those first couple of weeks doing higher reps for squats and deadlift and very taxing. My legs feel like rubber after my last set of squats lol. But I do like the variety . And it seems to work.

I like the way that is set up. Are you doing 3 days a week with that? What does the accessory work look like and how long does the workout usually take?

I am finding this new workout is taking me about an hour to an hour and 15 minutes, and that is with me feeling rushed. I need to have a backup plan more in the 30-45 minute range for when my kids start getting more involved in extracurricular stuff and time is at more of a premium.

4 days a week. Usually looks sort of like this.

Day 1: Bench, Incline (DB or Machine), Dips, Fly (Cable or Machine), Close Grip Bench, Tri Pressdown or Extensions (Rope Pressdowns, Lying Triceps Ext, etc).

Day 2: Squats, Leg Ext / Leg Press, Leg Curl (standing or seated usually), Hip Thrust (gym has a machine for this we use), Hip Abductor and Adductor Machines, Calves (usually seated). *The three hip exercises are a must for me now to keep me going

Day 3: Dead, Lat Pulls, Row (varies, currently the chest supported machine row), sometimes do a few pullups, preacher curls, DB curl (hammer, concentration, incline, one of them)

Day 4: Overhead press, Cable Side Lateral raises, Face Pulls, DB Row (that targets the rear delts), Shrugs

That's a pretty typical plan. The accessory work changes periodically, and it's usually 3 sets for 8-10 reps, maybe a minute rest between sets, We rest a longer for the big lifts. We usually throw in 3-4 exercises for Abs, a couple of quick sets of each. Things like farmer walks, side planks, weighted crunches, cable twists.

All in all, it's usually in the neighborhood of an hour, depending on rest times on the big lifts. If we're in a hurry, we may cut one of the accessories or cut abs to one or two. We do what we can.

I can certainly understand the time constraints. I've been there. When my kids were really young, I'd go to the gym early morning before work. Can't do that anymore . My oldest, my daughter graduated college last May. So no really young ones any longer. I've been divorced about 9 years now and my son goes back and forth between my place and his mom's. Fortunately, I found a small local gym chain that has a location close to me and his moms. When my son's with me, we go to the gym by me. And when he's at his mom's we go to the one by her. We don't always go on the same days as life happens and there are conflicts, but we generally can find a way to squeeze in 4 days, week days or weekends. And then sometimes things happen and we can't get in the 4 days. We just do our next workout, which ever one that is, when we can, and just keep moving forward. I don't obsess about it too much.

As I get older, my risk of injury from doing less than 6 reps per set is just too high for me to justify doing that on any regular basis. I might be able to get down to 4 reps per set, but don't feel comfortable going much lower.

I'll usually do slower eccentric portions and faster concentric, but don't really focus a ton on "tempo reps."

Sleep, unfortunately, has sucked. I work days and nights, and go back and forth, and it's pretty tough. I also work a ton of hours. Have been working on trying to get better quality sleep though.

I have been lifting for over 20 years at this point. Granted I've gone through different phases, where at times I was focused on body weight stuff more than heavy lifting, other times was trying to build muscle without a focus on strength, etc.


Hoosegow - you might be right. I think, age is probably a bigger factor than I'd care to admit. I think I still have some genetic potential left in me though, not quite 40, so hopefully I can squeeze out a little more strenght and muscle before I really just have to focus on holding onto what I've got.

Have thought about Vitamin T before. But it's just not worth it for me. Both the cost and the potential health consequences. That being said, maybe if I end up with low T one day I'll utilize it to the max, but till then, I'll just keep trying little tweaks here and there.


Appreciate everyone's feedback. Since I already dropped my weight and increased my sets, I'll stick with this for maybe the rest of October and then perhaps try going to higher weight and lower reps/sets.

Have been seeing a resurgence of Mike Mentzer high intensity training recently. Seems interesting. But it does scare me from an injury standpoint. Kinda want to try it, but I also don't want to go several days between workouts like he suggested.

PSA to make sure you know how to spot someone.

Asked a guy to spot me this morning on a heavier triple on decline bench. Told him I could unrack it and planned for 3-4 reps and just make sure I don't drop it on my face. Proceeds to hold the bar my entire set. Really threw me off.

People don't know what they don't know.

I would be absolutely terrified to be the bencher on a heavy decline, so as a spotter I would just assume whoever was doing it was suicidal.

But yeah, it's definitely an art form.

Man, I don't ask for a spot a whole lot but when I do, I am insanely anal…

"I'm going for X amount of reps, I don't need lift off, and if you see me struggle, grab it - otherwise keep your hands off the bar"

Most people just need very specific directions and some just need to understand what your goals are. If you ask an 18 year old strong kid to spot you, don't be surprised when he screams at you for motivation as your AC joints slowly tear instead of helping lift the bar off your chest. Describe the expectations of the spot prior to the lift and if the guy still sucks, just move along and find someone else.

This is one reason I haven't minded working out in my garage gym - I have the spotter arms set perfectly where the bar will rest against my chest and I can roll it down to my waist. Outside of a freak occurrence (knock on wood) I honestly think it's better than having a bad spotter. I miss the help sometimes when unracking but that's about it.

I work out at home so no spots for me, but when I worked out at a commercial gym and asked for a spot from a stranger I figured you get what you get. I generally tried not to get a spot at all unless it was from someone I knew was gonna know exactly what to do.

I can always count on you for these weightlifting accident stories!

In all seriousness hadn't thought of that and probably should. Of course my heavy is likely not in the realm of being heavy for you, but nonetheless still applies.

I found some research articles written about the effectiveness of decline bench as well as its benefits of taking pressure off the shoulders. I had always battled form and could never get in a place that my shoulders felt good on flat bench. Ever since I have swapped out flat bench and changed over to decline, no shoulder issues at all. Anyway, thanks for the food for thought!

Funny you said you would pick guys to spot who didn't look like they knew what they were doing; I purposely scouted out the guy benching 315 thinking that was fool proof.

bigtruckguy3500 said:

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Hoosegow - you might be right. I think, age is probably a bigger factor than I'd care to admit. I think I still have some genetic potential left in me though, not quite 40, so hopefully I can squeeze out a little more strenght and muscle before I really just have to focus on holding onto what I've got.

Have thought about Vitamin T before. But it's just not worth it for me. Both the cost and the potential health consequences. That being said, maybe if I end up with low T one day I'll utilize it to the max, but till then, I'll just keep trying little tweaks here and there.


Appreciate everyone's feedback. Since I already dropped my weight and increased my sets, I'll stick with this for maybe the rest of October and then perhaps try going to higher weight and lower reps/sets.

Have been seeing a resurgence of Mike Mentzer high intensity training recently. Seems interesting. But it does scare me from an injury standpoint. Kinda want to try it, but I also don't want to go several days between workouts like he suggested.

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Very much agree about vitamin T. I'm 43, and although I've lifted off and on over the past 20 years, it's never been for getting higher numbers- it's always been as an amateur natural bodybuilder. The past two years I've enjoyed learning more about the fundamentals of what drives muscle growth- and then put it to the test in the gym. It's been both a great physical and mental challenge that I can see doing for the rest of my life. Testosterone would definitely help, but it would just introduce a variable that I don't need and don't want to account for. I don't have impressive lifts, but I love the way I look, and I feel amazing. And I figured that if I can do RDLs with two plates for multiple sets at my age then at least I've got enough base strength to be functional for a long time

You miss read that. I would look for the guy who looked like he knew what he was doing.

Also, if you aren't competing, there is no reason why you should bench with a barbell, unless it is the only equipment you have. Dumbbells allow you to put your shoulders in a much better position. They also are more effective for overall strength and muscle building.

I agree... but T does work. I can promise you I never would of done some of what I did if it wasn't for it. There are a lot of amature lifters, like I was that go that route. For overall health risk, I don't believe there is much (some prostate cancer risk and cardiovascular risk), IF you don't abuse it. People get addicted to the results though... I don't think I ever abused.

On a side note... I do believe that it contributed to all my shoulder issues. As I have said before, if I knew then how much pain I'd be in now, at the early age of 51, I wouldn't of done it. I wouldn't of powerlifted. I would of gotten into the strongman stuff. It wasn't very popular when I started. But also knowing me, I probably would of done the same stupid stuff and pushed past my breaking point. Hell, in 2021 I ruptured my bicep and tore my elbow tendon and was out for 6 months. I did it by throwing a keg on my shoulder - something I've done 1,000 times.

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Also, if you aren't competing, there is no reason why you should bench with a barbell, unless it is the only equipment you have. Dumbbells allow you to put your shoulders in a much better position.

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This is my problem :/

Gym where i workout only has dbells up to 75. Simply not heavy enough for bench for me - flat or incline.

I do have access to a dip bar and dip belt, but I'm not sure thats a sub for chest pressing.

Suggestions for someone who wants to protect their shoulders, but lacks access to heavy dbells?

Build your own gym... My personal set goes up to 120.

I kid - a little.

Yah, dips and push ups will work just fine. The bench is a dumb measure of strength. When are you ever going to have a flat immovable object supporting your back and have to push? But... everyone asks what's your bench. I get it. I was all about the numbers. In the grand scheme of things, the bench really isn't that great of a lift. Heck, when was the last time you even saw a bench pressing type move in a strongman competition.

I digress... You can put your shoulders in a better position by switching to a suicde grip. That is all I ever used when benching raw. There is a substantial increase in risk of dropping the bar, but thankfully I never did. With a suicide grip, you can rotate your hands out a little more which puts your shoulders in a better position.

TikkaShooter said:

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Quote:

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Also, if you aren't competing, there is no reason why you should bench with a barbell, unless it is the only equipment you have. Dumbbells allow you to put your shoulders in a much better position.

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This is my problem :/

Gym where i workout only has dbells up to 75. Simply not heavy enough for bench for me - flat or incline.

I do have access to a dip bar and dip belt, but I'm not sure thats a sub for chest pressing.

Suggestions for someone who wants to protect their shoulders, but lacks access to heavy dbells?

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Do you have access to a cable machine? I LOVE cable flys for chest. Could be a great addition to your dumbbell press. But I lift more for size than strength