Time off question…

Just took an 11 day break, longest break I've had in 9 months. Previously only took 2-3 day breaks.

Came back after those 11 days off and…ooph. I felt awful. Slow, low energy, numbers were down. Bar just felt heavy. I don't think I'll take that length of time off again.

Any rhyme or reason why my body responded that way? I tend to be quick to recover. Enjoy and capable of 4-5 weight workouts a week, mixing in yoga, running, sports on same days.

Wondering if anyone else has experimented with time off and has dialed in what works for them.

I would bet your next workout will be great. I always feel that way my first workout after a break but get back into it quick!

Agree with bam- just keep at it. The first day back I would expect it to be difficult. But if it's lasting longer than a week or two, then maybe there's an issue worth exploring

TikkaShooter said:

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Time off question…

Just took an 11 day break, longest break I've had in 9 months. Previously only took 2-3 day breaks.

Came back after those 11 days off and…ooph. I felt awful. Slow, low energy, numbers were down. Bar just felt heavy. I don't think I'll take that length of time off again.

Any rhyme or reason why my body responded that way? I tend to be quick to recover. Enjoy and capable of 4-5 weight workouts a week, mixing in yoga, running, sports on same days.

Wondering if anyone else has experimented with time off and has dialed in what works for them.

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Happens to me nearly every single time I take more than 5-6 days off.

same here. 3-4 days off, and I'm ready to take on the world. Week or better and I feel weak.

Started 531 this week, and mentally I can already tell I needed this change from Madcow.

Madcow is pretty brutal because every workout is either squatting heavy or deadlifting heavy. With 531 I get a couple of lower body days and a couple of upper body days.

Keeping the 4 day split, but adding some high bar squats on my deadlifting days. I don't like the idea of only squatting once a week.

I like 531 because I can add accessories to address some of my weaker areas, like my hamstrings. With Madcow, I was so gassed at the end of every workout that I didn't have anything left in the tank to do any accessories.

Progress may be "slower" with 531, but I think with the plateaus I was hitting on Madcow, the 10 pounds for lower body and 5 pounds for upper body per month will probably be equal to or greater than what Madcow was giving me at this point. My squat was really the only lift going up consistently. Plus, I have to remind myself that in a perfect world that still adds 120 and 60 pounds to each lift a year, which is pretty good.

I'm closing in on a year of hard lifting and I want to share my experience working in the 8-12 rep range for everything. The idea is to get at least 8 on any every set to maintain or 12 on any set and I add weight to the bar (machine, DBs, whatever) next workout.

Pros:
I genuinely think I've gotten bigger than I would have using lower rep ranges. I look better to myself in the mirror and to my family than I did working in a more powerlifting style for the same time period about 3-4 years ago.

Cons:
I have no idea what my one rep max is. Plugging it into a 1 Rep Max calculator doesn't work. I've tried it ONCE with safeties. Without the safeties I think I might've died or been seriously injured.

Progress in terms of weight on the bar is also VERY slow. For the first 3 months I was able to add 5 lbs every workout or week. Then is really slowed down. 6 months in, it sometimes takes me 2-3 months to get the 12 I need to go up to the next set of dumbbells on a DB bench press for example.

I've learned a lot from this thread. And I appreciate everyone who contributes once again. If what I'm doing is stupid, please let me know! I enjoy the engagement and welcome criticism because both of those things from this thread have helped me work better!

Awesome! Who cares what your 1RM is… you're stronger than most guys and look/feel good!

Nice work!

One thing I've been looking into is cluster sets - for example, instead of doing 4 sets of 10, doing 8 sets of 5 and just doing shorter rests in between them. The idea is that you can use slightly higher weight since you'll be getting small rests between sets, and your overall volume per workout will go up.

Have you looked into that? It might be worth looking into mixing your rep scheme up a little bit and seeing if you can increase your overall volume to make some bigger gains for awhile.

I do find that going up on dumbbells is a way slower process for me than barbell lifts.

Props to anyone working out in the 8-12 rep range. I tend to stick to the power lifting "less reps" mantra just because it seems daunting to commit that many reps - mostly when squatting. Just flat out being a baby.

I used to throw in the widowmaker sets at the end when squatting and maybe this will motivate me to do that again.

That being said after years of deadlifting, I can't see a huge benefit to going past maybe 8 reps on those. I stick to the 3-8 range.

Awesome! I do essentially the exact same thing with regard to progressive overload, although I try to get to 10x3 before advancing. I'm about 2 years into consistent lifting, and progress has gone from weekly, to monthly, to now very intermittent. This is expected. You might eventually take whole years to advance in your numbers once you get to a certain point. RDLs and squats are killers in that 10 rep range. Leg day is exhausting, so I keep it simple and only do 4 different lifts. I've also been training for a half marathon for the last 2 months and am up to about 40-50 miles/wk while still lifting 5x/wk, so it makes it a lot tougher to keep my numbers improving, although they surprisingly continue to do so, for now. Probably has to do with keeping my caloric deficit to a minimum.

Overall this is easily the best shape I have ever been in my life from strength, to endurance, to overall physique.

Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag said:

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Awesome! I do essentially the exact same thing with regard to progressive overload, although I try to get to 10x3 before advancing. I'm about 2 years into consistent lifting, and progress has gone from weekly, to monthly, to now very intermittent. This is expected. You might eventually take whole years to advance in your numbers once you get to a certain point. RDLs and squats are killers in that 10 rep range. Leg day is exhausting, so I keep it simple and only do 4 different lifts. I've also been training for a half marathon for the last 2 months and am up to about 40-50 miles/wk while still lifting 5x/wk, so it makes it a lot tougher to keep my numbers improving, although they surprisingly continue to do so, for now. Probably has to do with keeping my caloric deficit to a minimum.

Overall this is easily the best shape I have ever been in my life from strength, to endurance, to overall physique.

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I'll be honest its humbling to the point where there was times my self esteem was low. Because the internet makes you think "noobie" gains are supposed to be rapid and easy at the beginning (which they were a short time). After a year of noob gains everyone on Youtube and Instagram from 13 year olds to old ladies are benching 225 for seemingly 30 reps (at least this was in my negatively inclined perception). Meanwhile my progress is SO slow that I'm thinking I'll be lucky to get to two 110 lbs DBs for 12 reps maybe by 2040.

I had to take a step back and reevaluate what the point of any of this was. I was making good body changes. Feeling better about how I looked in the mirror and things like luggage when we traveled and furniture were starting to feel much lighter. So for me the weight on the bar become just a means to an end of looking good and being healthy. The new mindset has made the gym positive and fun for me.

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I've also been training for a half marathon for the last 2 months and am up to about 40-50 miles/wk while still lifting 5x/wk

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I work 7 days on and 7 days off; so I know how brutal the on weeks can be. If you're doing this on a hospitalist's schedule, this might be the most impressive physical feat on Texags from a non scholarship athlete. Even otherwise, this is incredible! Props to you, hope the Half Marathon goes well!

Lol, I'm an emergency medicine doc and am fortunate enough to be able to pick my schedule, and have a side gig that has allowed me to cut back on clinical hours, so I have more time available to me than the average doc. I also don't have kids.

As for noob gains, don't forget most "noobs" on instagram/youtube who are posting their fitness journeys and demonstrating amazing transformations and/or feats of strength are on gear. Also, DB press doesn't directly correlate to barbell bench press. Typically, you should be able to bench about 10-20% more than your combined dumbbell press weight. So if you are repping 100 lb dumbbells for 10 reps, you theoretically should be able to do 10 reps of 220-240 lbs on barbell bench.

Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag said:

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As for noob gains, don't forget most "noobs" on instagram/youtube who are posting their fitness journeys and demonstrating amazing transformations and/or feats of strength are on gear.

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This for sure. I was in shape when I was younger but I didn't "get" weightlifting or understand any of the science involved.

Now that I'm approaching 40, between the age of some of these people, gear, the availability of TRT, and any other number of things, I don't really bother with what some of these people look like. Hell, I just recently started taking creatine because I didn't like doing anything "unnatural".

For me, it's an overall lifestyle change. Could I have an even better body if I locked down my diet, made sure to get 8 hours of sleep every night, and work out 2 to 3 hours a day? Of course. But I also don't want this to be my ENTIRE life like it probably is for a lot of people with "dream bodies".

I think once you hit your sweet spot, you know it. Everything seems to just click. And your sweet spot will likely change as you progress on your journey.

For me, I have a harder time doing hypertrophic workouts because it's hard for me to notice the changes in the mirror and I'm not disciplined enough to whip out a tape measurer once a week. So, I focus on getting stronger. It's black and white - I either went up on my lifts this workout or I didn't. I know that has a definite ceiling, but I think a 4 plate squat and deadlift is attainable for me so I'm shooting for it. If I get it, I'll reassess and find some new goals, but that's the fun part of it. There's never an end point.

PascalsWager said:

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I had to take a step back and reevaluate what the point of any of this was. I was making good body changes. Feeling better about how I looked in the mirror and things like luggage when we traveled and furniture were starting to feel much lighter. So for me the weight on the bar become just a means to an end of looking good and being healthy. The new mindset has made the gym positive and fun for me.

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What is this? A healthy approach to fitness? I don't even understand...

(But great work!)

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For me, I have a harder time doing hypertrophic workouts because it's hard for me to notice the changes in the mirror and I'm not disciplined enough to whip out a tape measurer once a week. So, I focus on getting stronger. It's black and white - I either went up on my lifts this workout or I didn't. I know that has a definite ceiling, but I think a 4 plate squat and deadlift is attainable for me so I'm shooting for it. If I get it, I'll reassess and find some new goals, but that's the fun part of it. There's never an end point.

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Man, I worked out in the 8-12 rep range for along time. (I, admittedly, did not eat enough in those days). And I saw very little progress.

In the last 8 months, I switched to "strength" and committed to eating (and, gasp, gain a little fat). Things are progressing at a very good clip now. (I don't have the abs anymore, but I do look MUCH better with a shirt on) I'll cut once I run out of "newbie" gains.

For sure, this is the other thing I like about lifting to get stronger. I don't feel guilty about actually eating. I found a good daily regimen that kept me hovering around 220 pounds, but my strength gains recently have been pretty flat, so I'm going to add in some calories and hope that with my new workout that gives me the boost I need.

CC09LawAg said:

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For sure, this is the other thing I like about lifting to get stronger. I don't feel guilty about actually eating. I found a good daily regimen that kept me hovering around 220 pounds, but my strength gains recently have been pretty flat, so I'm going to add in some calories and hope that with my new workout that gives me the boost I need.

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That's awesome! Post your progress! Curious if you can eat through your sticking point.

Just did my first deadlift 5/3/1 workout. Programmed 8x5 Romanian deadlift and 8x5 high bar, heel elevated squats for accessories. Made it through 5 sets on my squats before I had to call it. My cardio SUCKS. My legs felt ok, but I definitely need to find some time for some sprints on off days.

CC09LawAg said:

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Just did my first deadlift 5/3/1 workout. Programmed 8x5 Romanian deadlift and 8x5 high bar, heel elevated squats for accessories. Made it through 5 sets on my squats before I had to call it. My cardio SUCKS. My legs felt ok, but I definitely need to find some time for some sprints on off days.

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woooooof!

I don't know what your numbers are, but do you need to be running this much volume and 5/3/1 yet?

I was running Madcow. I was at 5 reps for 310 for squat, 250 for bench, 340 on deadlift, and 147.5 on OH press in May. The only one going up consistently was my squat. I took a couple months off Madcow in May and June when my baby was born, started again in July, and got stuck on the exact same numbers (other than squat, that went up 15 pounds) through August.

I'm going to run 5/3/1 for about 3 months and see how I feel. I'm open to tweaking the accessories, I may move the high bar squats to squat day and move the Bulgarian split squats to deadlift day since they're a little less intense.

CC09LawAg said:

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I was running Madcow. I was at 5 reps for 310 for squat, 250 for bench, 340 on deadlift, and 147.5 on OH press in May. The only one going up consistently was my squat. I took a couple months off Madcow in May and June when my baby was born, started again in July, and got stuck on the exact same numbers (other than squat, that went up 15 pounds) through August.

I'm going to run 5/3/1 for about 3 months and see how I feel. I'm open to tweaking the accessories, I may move the high bar squats to squat day and move the Bulgarian split squats to deadlift day since they're a little less intense.

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Daaayum! Great progress!

Hoose and anyone else who may want to chime in:

I am trying to program my accessories for next month's 5/3/1. Since it first came out, in addition to the Boring but Big accessory work (5x10 on the main lifts @50% of your training max), there has been a "First Set Last" addition - basically, you do a 5x5 of the weight of your first set for the day on the main lift, then add accessories of your choosing.

From a purely strength building perspective - I am wondering if I wouldn't be better off changing from a low bar squat to a high bar, from a barbell bench to a DB bench, and from a standing overhead barbell press to a seated overhead DB press for the 5x5. I would still do the 5x5 as prescribed and adjust down by a small % to account for the typical training difference when switching from barbell to dumbbells.

What do you think? I am getting barbell work done with the main lift. Will I ultimately see more strength gains doing all barbell work, or by doing barbell work + dumbbell work?

Bigger picture, would this be something that would be good to change cycle to cycle (monthly), or change maybe in 3 month increments?

ETA: On DB bench I am currently working with around 75 pounds for a 5x5. I understand that I will likely hit a certain point where using DBs for a 5x5 becomes unrealistic.

It was either Wendler, Tate or Louie that said everything works and everything stops working eventually.

Don't overthink it. Keep it simple As long as the accessories compliment the main lifts, don't put too much thought into it. The onlything I would say to try to do every time, is to work pull ups and dips into every bench/overhead press day. For example,

For bench I would do the lift.

• Pick a row - doesn't matter which one (pendlay, barbell, Kroc, machine, supported). Change it up at the end of the cycle or after 2 cycles.
• Do some sort of speed work (floor presses, chains, bands, etc) or change up your grip (narrow, wide, reverse), or do some board work (I liked doing sets of 3 - 3 board, 2 board, 1 board, touch, 1 board, 2 board, 3 board at about 50%), pin presses
• Lat pull down or pull ups
• dips (call it a day)

For OHP, I would do the lift.

• pull ups
• Do some bench speedwork (see above), powerlifter wind chimes
• Shrugs
• dips (call it a day). You can do curls if you want, but for strength, it is completely not needed and can actually contribute to tendenitis.

I'm not sure I'm answering your question, but I'll continue...

As for Squat accessories, sure you can switch from low to high, but I think there are better options.

• Lunges, box squats for speed, leg press (that's right, I said leg press), belted squats are fantastic but are hard to set up unless you have a specific machine for that (Pit Shark is awesome).
• Reverse Hyper if you have one
• Sled drags in revers are murder to your quads.
• Load up the barbell and rock side to side for your hips
• Naughty/nice girl machine - also good for your hips.

Deadlift - whatever you do, don't take advice from me on the deadlift, BUT pick out of these:

• Good mornings
• banded deadlifts
• GHR
• Reverse hyyper again
• hanging leg raises
• ab work

Thanks. Overthinking it is definitely a problem of mine - I will probably try to switch it up every cycle so I can address whatever I feel my weak/sticking points are.

I was definitely lacking on the lat work with Madcow and plan to alternate pull ups and chin ups on bench days and OHP days. Should I just forget chin ups and stick with pull ups? One of my main goals right now is building a wider back, so I assume the answer is going to be yes but wanted your thoughts. I'm in my garage so no access to a lat pulldown currently.

I am aiming for a weight I can do for 25 reps on Kroc rows for my bench day, then I plan on going up 5 pounds. What was your rep goal for these? They're relatively new to me so trying to gauge what a good goal is for progressive overload.

I am not competing for anything, the only reason I am thinking about switching from low bar to high bar is because it focuses on the quads more. But I can see the merits in sticking with low bar across the board if the goal is to move the most weight and then find another exercise or two that hits the quads.

I tried to do dips at the end of my OHP day - I did my OHP, chin ups, DB bench, and face pulls and could barely squeeze out a 5x5 w/o any weight added. I may need to add them to my bench day too.

Hoosegow said:

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Load up the barbell and rock side to side for your hips

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This one is interesting - are you saying like a partial ROM cossack squat?

I know you joke about sucking at DL but I know you've pulled more than I ever have and were around a lot of guys that were at a high level - did any of those guys use Romanian deadlifts as part of their training?

I was listening to Wendler on a podcast and he said he was taking questions at some conference or seminar and got asked what kind of handle should be used for lat pull-downs. He said he immediately answered "whatever's already on the machine. Doesn't matter."

I cannot believe I have been working out this long and never heard this:

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Naughty/nice girl machine - also good for your hips

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I know exactly what you're talking about too lol

Not even partial Cossack squat (though that is another good one for an accessory lift - especially if you have weak hips, which most of us do due to sitting all day). Just get under the bar (works really well with a belted squat machine), get into your normal stance, rock to the left barely lifting your right foot off of the ground. Then rock to your right barely lifting your left foot off of the ground. Rock back and forth until you feel your hips start to give. If it takes forever, add weight.

An no, I don't joke about deadlift. I hate them so much and I suck at it so bad. I'm 6'2" and have a long torso. My wing span is that of someone that is 3-4 inches shorter than I am. I start every deadlift at a deficit. I used to train so hard to get my deadlift up and my numbers would actually go down. I've thrown my belt all the way across the gym cussing up a storm.... Nobody laughed because they knew how frustrated I was. Deadlift to me got like golf. I worked hard to be good at both and I kept sucking. I gave up golf because I kept getting worse and not better. I said screw deadlift for the same reason. I always wanted a 600 lbs deadlift because that would of given me an elite total of over 2000 lbs. M Fer held me back. At the end, when I stopped caring about DL, I would start drinking whiskey after the bench. Warm up, get my 545 DL, and take my third lift half blitzed.

Thanks! I may try cycling between Bulgarian split squat and either cossacks or trying what you're recommending - I sit all day so it's definitely a weak point.

I am not trying to reach the same heights you were, but deadlift is by far the lift that most makes me just sit and think "wtf am I doing wrong?". I think I have neglected my lower back and hamstrings, so I'm trying to work on that. For me, the hamstrings are hard to isolate in a home gym setting. I'm currently doing hyperextensions and will try to level up to Nordic curls after a couple of cycles, likely with band assistance. And then adding in Romanian deadlifts to try to focus on the hinge mechanics.

My goal is a 1000 pound total. I am very close and I know the easy gains would be on my deadlift relative to my other lifts. It's like there's some secret that I'm just on the cusp of unlocking, I'll go up 10 or 15 pounds, then I'll get stuck again.

The quickest way to get stronger while not using juice, you have to eat, eat and eat some more. It isn't healthy, but it will get the job done.

I weigh about 220, up to now I've been aiming to take in 200g of protein a day. I've held this weight while getting stronger for months and months now. I haven't really worried about tracking calories, just protein.

I know my sleep could probably be better but that's a little more out of my control than my diet. So I upped my goal to 240g a day and added a half gallon of 2% milk to my daily diet. Curious to see where it takes me. I am willing to go up 10 or 20 pounds if the strength gains come. I can always cut the weight again.

CC09LawAg said:

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My goal is a 1000 pound total. I am very close and I know the easy gains would be on my deadlift relative to my other lifts. It's like there's some secret that I'm just on the cusp of unlocking, I'll go up 10 or 15 pounds, then I'll get stuck again.

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I have the same goal. My squat is absolutely terrible and is holding me way back. Im very tall (long femurs, short torso...with tall hips to boot)...my leverages are absolutely garbage for a squat. But I keep trying.

To the experts on here, I know everyone always talks about IPF depth, but am I still getting a solid training response hitting just at parallel? (I will never compete).

Tex117 said:

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CC09LawAg said:

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My goal is a 1000 pound total. I am very close and I know the easy gains would be on my deadlift relative to my other lifts. It's like there's some secret that I'm just on the cusp of unlocking, I'll go up 10 or 15 pounds, then I'll get stuck again.

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I have the same goal. My squat is absolutely terrible and is holding me way back. Im very tall (long femurs, short torso...with tall hips to boot)...my leverages are absolutely garbage for a squat. But I keep trying.

To the experts on here, I know everyone always talks about IPF depth, but am I still getting a solid training response hitting just at parallel? (I will never compete).

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LOL..as far as "training" goes, you can grow your legs just fine without ever doing a contest legal squat...hell, you don't even have to squat to build amazing legs as far as "training" goes.

Try box squatting with a cambered bar. It will humble you and show you exactly where your problems are.

Set the box so that you are parallel (top of knee to the crease of the hip). Work on sitting back. Watch yourself in the mirror (with low weight). Your shins should be perpendicular to the ground. I imagine you are pitching forward. The cambered bar will punish you if you pitch forward. The weight will swing forward and jack you up. It teaches you to push straight up, keeping the weight in line where it should be, and your shins have to be prettly parallel...

Hoosegow said:

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Try box squatting with a cambered bar. It will humble you and show you exactly where your problems are.

Set the box so that you are parallel (top of knee to the crease of the hip). Work on sitting back. Watch yourself in the mirror (with low weight). Your shins should be perpendicular to the ground. I imagine you are pitching forward. The cambered bar will punish you if you pitch forward. The weight will swing forward and jack you up. It teaches you to push straight up, keeping the weight in line where it should be, and your shins have to be prettly parallel...

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This is EXACTLY my problem. With my leverages, its very difficult to sit back. Because my ass is in another zip code, I have to shift forward to stay balanced. It can be done, don't get me wrong, but the margin of error is absolutely zero.