China is able to produce these "super clones" because they are making the parts that are just assembled in Switzerland by Rolex. Prove me wrong.

Rolex is almost entirely vertically integrated.

zgolfz85 said:

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Here's what I'm talking about. This is what the kids are buying, just one of many factories in Guangzhou. But, they're not even paying these prices. There are locals that are "trusted dealers" that are reachable via WhatsApp and buy in bulk. So, instead of paying 1200 for a Hulk, you're paying 400-600…and it's at your door via high speed shipping within 7 biz days.

https://vsfactory.us.com/shop/

Obv no interest on my end, but I do wonder what if anything the true manufacturers think about this and treat it. It's all done in China and via WhatsApp or Discord etc, so pretty hard to enforce. I don't think it's to the level of cloned designer purses, but certainly a huge black mkt industry from what I've seen

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I get bored sometimes and scroll etsy for "nib vintage" rolex, cartier, gs, etc and report them as counterfeits.

A year or so ago I was browsing Craigslist for watches and saw a dude selling counterfeit subs and figured what the hell, might be fun to have one. Started communicating with the guy and it got real shady real fast, cash app only, then I forget what question I asked the dude but he got super aggro and I bowed out

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-media-release/shipment-counterfeit-watches-stopped-indianapolis-cbp

well that was quick

if you want to see how pervasive it is, just check out a sub like Reptime on Reddit. There are folks on there that have 100+ superclones. Beyond being silly, seems like a big risk. If you're getting work done on your house and someone sees a dozen plus rolexes or other top tier watches, they're not going to know they're fakes...especially if true experts have to get into the guts of the watch to be able to tell

no offense to anyone here, but since you're dealing with Chinese locals, the convos from WhatsApp via screenshots are like:

how much for a batman free sprung 40mm on jubilee?

450 usd + 60 ship at yo door in 7-12 days bro. I send you QC pics and video tomorrow. you send western union to xxxxxx, then i ship

ok thanks

zgolfz85 said:

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YouBet said:

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zgolfz85 said:

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there's a new phase for gen z'ers apparently....buying superclone watches in bunches. I didn't know that was a thing until I stumbled down a recent and random rabbit hole on reddit. You've got kids buying a half dozen rolexes at a time at 300-800 a piece, and so much why. I don't know why a 24 yr old would walk around pretending to own 250k worth of watches with a 50k a year job fresh out of school, but alas here we are. Maybe it's the evolution of the 30k millionaires of the early 2000s with the entry level BMWs, but can't afford to eat or pay rent.

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Interesting. My wife just shared a video with me last week about some watch company that makes almost direct clones of other high-end watches at around the 500-800 price point. They have their own brand name which is weird and I can't recall it. Actually, saw one at a local consignment shop that carries watches.

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it's scary. these chinese factories are so good they can even fool a lot of seasoned watch repair folks now. some of them are so good that you have to get as deep as inspecting individual parts of the movement as even the opened casebacks don't give obvious tells. I've even seen stories of well respected shops mistakenly reselling clones. They're even getting good at cloning the packaging, cards, etc. They can get weight matched to within small fractions of a gram as well. They've done time comparisons on a lot of genuine vs superclones and even the timing can be matched up in terms of the +/- 2 secs/day, etc. wild.

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I remember reading 5-10 years ago that the fake Paneris are basically perfect at this point and no one can really tell them apart.

zgolfz85 said:

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if you want to see how pervasive it is, just check out a sub like Reptime on Reddit. There are folks on there that have 100+ superclones. Beyond being silly, seems like a big risk. If you're getting work done on your house and someone sees a dozen plus rolexes or other top tier watches, they're not going to know they're fakes...especially if true experts have to get into the guts of the watch to be able to tell

no offense to anyone here, but since you're dealing with Chinese locals, the convos from WhatsApp via screenshots are like:

how much for a batman free sprung 40mm on jubilee?

450 usd + 60 ship at yo door in 7-12 days bro. I send you QC pics and video tomorrow. you send western union to xxxxxx, then i ship

ok thanks

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Yep, the Reptime bros on reddit have been at the chinese clone game for a while but the pieces are looking better and better.

But I'm buying a Rolex (or any other nice watch) for me and whoever will inherit it, not anyone else. The reptime guys are buying it for other people. IMO a really low IQ approach to trying to achieve quick status.

If you have to resort to buying a watch for $600 because you can't afford a $5k or $10k watch then how long can you keep that game up with your peers or a potential girlfriend?

Gonna look real strange when you're rocking a $50k 'Daytona' but need to split a $200 restaurant bill with her.

Serotonin said:

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zgolfz85 said:

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if you want to see how pervasive it is, just check out a sub like Reptime on Reddit. There are folks on there that have 100+ superclones. Beyond being silly, seems like a big risk. If you're getting work done on your house and someone sees a dozen plus rolexes or other top tier watches, they're not going to know they're fakes...especially if true experts have to get into the guts of the watch to be able to tell

no offense to anyone here, but since you're dealing with Chinese locals, the convos from WhatsApp via screenshots are like:

how much for a batman free sprung 40mm on jubilee?

450 usd + 60 ship at yo door in 7-12 days bro. I send you QC pics and video tomorrow. you send western union to xxxxxx, then i ship

ok thanks

---

Yep, the Reptime bros on reddit have been at the chinese clone game for a while but the pieces are looking better and better.

But I'm buying a Rolex (or any other nice watch) for me and whoever will inherit it, not anyone else. The reptime guys are buying it for other people. IMO a really low IQ approach to trying to achieve quick status.

If you have to resort to buying a watch for $600 because you can't afford a $5k or $10k watch then how long can you keep that game up with your peers or a potential girlfriend?

Gonna look real strange when you're rocking a $50k 'Daytona' but need to split a $200 restaurant bill with her.

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haha exactly, I don't get it personally. it's one thing if you're in a tax bracket where it's believable...no one on those subs seem to be in that category

the only semi understandable comment I've seen on there was from a guy who had genuine high-end watches, but couldn't get his AD to open up access for whatever dream watch he wanted...after years of waiting and spending tens of thousands on other watches so he could get on the shortlist at his AD. His reasoning was something like I'm not going to spend another 50k and wait 3 plus years for the off chance that my AD puts me on his cool list to get such and such watch...I want it today.

Still wouldn't do it personally and for me I would just view it as fate that I'm not supposed to own said watch.

Serotonin said:

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zgolfz85 said:

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if you want to see how pervasive it is, just check out a sub like Reptime on Reddit. There are folks on there that have 100+ superclones. Beyond being silly, seems like a big risk. If you're getting work done on your house and someone sees a dozen plus rolexes or other top tier watches, they're not going to know they're fakes...especially if true experts have to get into the guts of the watch to be able to tell

no offense to anyone here, but since you're dealing with Chinese locals, the convos from WhatsApp via screenshots are like:

how much for a batman free sprung 40mm on jubilee?

450 usd + 60 ship at yo door in 7-12 days bro. I send you QC pics and video tomorrow. you send western union to xxxxxx, then i ship

ok thanks

---

Yep, the Reptime bros on reddit have been at the chinese clone game for a while but the pieces are looking better and better.

But I'm buying a Rolex (or any other nice watch) for me and whoever will inherit it, not anyone else. The reptime guys are buying it for other people. IMO a really low IQ approach to trying to achieve quick status.

If you have to resort to buying a watch for $600 because you can't afford a $5k or $10k watch then how long can you keep that game up with your peers or a potential girlfriend?

Gonna look real strange when you're rocking a $50k 'Daytona' but need to split a $200 restaurant bill with her.

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If you actually spent $50,000 on a watch, I think it would be completely understandable that you might need to split the check... ;^)

Poor people buy fakes as a come up.

Rich people buy fakes because (1) nobody questions them AND/OR (2) so they can leave their real one in a safe and not worry about wearing the fake one.

schmendeler said:

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Rolex is almost entirely vertically integrated.

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That's what I'd say too.

Red Pear Realty said:

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Poor people buy fakes as a come up.

Rich people buy fakes because (1) nobody questions them AND/OR (2) so they can leave their real one in a safe and not worry about wearing the fake one.

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(3) nobody else knows the difference and you don't get rich by spending money you don't have to

Agreed. That's what I was saying with #1

as much as y'all are trying to talk me into buying a superclone, I think I'll refrain

TarponChaser said:

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Red Pear Realty said:

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Poor people buy fakes as a come up.

Rich people buy fakes because (1) nobody questions them AND/OR (2) so they can leave their real one in a safe and not worry about wearing the fake one.

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(3) nobody else knows the difference and you don't get rich by spending money you don't have to

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I was sitting next to a guy in a waiting room in Austin wearing a Batgirl. I struck up a conversation and in less than a minute knew it was a fake. He "got it at a jewelry shop in Austin" and was confused when I asked about his wait time. "I've been here about 30 minutes"

I didn't get rich spending money I don't have to, but also didn't get rich misrepresenting myself. I'd be embarrassed wearing a fake Rolex so I wear a Seiko when I want to protect my Rolex. Being content to be on a waiting list for a Batgirl instead of paying grey market prices is my definition of not spending money I don't have to

Like anyone in this thread of all places would admit they would wear a knock off anyways.

It's kind of strange that they can make clones that will even stump the experts in some cases and are making automatic movements that can seemingly compete with Japanese and Swiss movements, yet you don't see any watch brands out of China making noise globally (outside of fakes)….guess they realize a luxury Chinese watch brand would be scoffed at anywhere outside of China

TarponChaser said:

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Red Pear Realty said:

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Poor people buy fakes as a come up.

Rich people buy fakes because (1) nobody questions them AND/OR (2) so they can leave their real one in a safe and not worry about wearing the fake one.

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(3) nobody else knows the difference and you don't get rich by spending money you don't have to

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(4)They got tired of waiting for their AD to come through.

it's because nobody is "stumping experts" on a $500-$1K fake...as much as folks might claim that.

Diggity said:

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it's because nobody is "stumping experts" on a $500-$1K fake...as much as folks might claim that.

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Are they not? I don't know but folks ITT have said that there are more than a few cases of experts being fooled.

I'm purely a neophyte when it comes high end watches and have fairly narrow tastes so I'll defer to others who know more but according to folks on here there are a good number of these fakes that are really, really difficult to differentiate. Even for experts.

Sea Speed said:

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Like anyone in this thread of all places would admit they would wear a knock off anyways.

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I'd probably buy one as a sort of test drive on something I wouldn't normally buy/wear.

Like a Panerai for example. Not my normal jam but there are some that are intriguing and I think I'd rather buy a knock off for a few hundred and wear it for a while to see if I like it.

they're definitely better on the outside than the old fakes, but these guys aren't taking the time and effort to machine exact part replicas on the inside.

Things like "rose gold" stainless steel would be a pretty easy tell as well.

I've probably asked this before but who is a good Houston tech to change out the seals on a Speedmaster?

I brought it to the Omega boutique the other day and the guy told me not to bother as they only do "full service" on their watches, which starts at $1K. Thanks Omega! Should just buy a fake I guess

Diggity said:

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they're definitely better on the outside than the old fakes, but these guys aren't taking the time and effort to machine exact part replicas on the inside.

Things like "rose gold" stainless steel would be a pretty easy tell as well.

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You'd be surprised. I've seen many a comparison video where authorized watch repair folks out of NYC and London have had to open up movements altogether to make a definitive call.

I will not buy a fake luxury watch because I don't see the point. While we all share our watches on here and brag about them, I don't GAS what people think about me in real life. If I can't afford it or find it, then I simply won't have it.

I'll wear something else instead.

zgolfz85 said:

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yet you don't see any watch brands out of China making noise globally (outside of fakes)….guess they realize a luxury Chinese watch brand would be scoffed at anywhere outside of China

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Pretty sure the vast majority of micro/boutique watches these days are 100% made in China, there are several websites to streamline the entire process from design to delivery, then they regulate stateside or in Switzerland and do enough repackaging with Texas or us materials to claim it's not Chinese. Also pretty sure a regulated Chinese made nh35 will go toe to toe with a Rolex movement as well, though they may not last as long (but can be completely replaced 20x for the cost of servicing the Rolex)

I remember when vox clamantis said my aquanaut was fake back in the day. That was before he met me. Now he knows

If you are buying for status, then clone all the way. It's near impossible to tell the difference between real or clone on the wrist, and most people don't care. But if you actually care about watches, there are plenty of amazing watches you can buy for the same price as a "superclone".

Was at dinner the other night, the waiter had a Rolex on. My brother is a rolex only guy, and asked him about it. He said it was fake straight away.

From the naked eye you can't tell a difference which is really all that matters if you're not trying to sell and pretend it's real.

I would have thought the prevalence of Rolex fakes would diminish it as a status symbol, but then again only "watch people" know or care so it makes sense it doesn't.

https://grone.com/pages/horologium

Gronefeld's inexpensive line drops a new watch today at 8am cst. There's a quirky and a classic, I really like the quirky. The orange is blue is a pretty fun combo.

Sip game day watch.

That's a no from me.

And… sold out before I was able to finish school drop off/get to the office. Bummer.

lb sand said:

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Sip game day watch.

That's a no from me.

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Looks more like a U of Miami watch to me...

I had the same concern about so many fake Rolex ruining the brand and tanking their value but my views have evolved since then. When I first starting buying watches, resale value was important to me because I was spending such a large amount I wanted the margin of safety on the downside. Now that I have had more success, as a percentage of my income these purchase seem much smaller. I have gotten a few strong offers on some of my watches but I value keeping the watch more than I need the money. So now I don't really care what the resale value is because I am never going to sell any of my watches. My entire collection is under 1% my total networth so the value could go to zero and have no impact on my life.

Oh yeah I agree completely. For my personal collection, resale is not a factor other than deciding to buy used or not, I'm not going to sell either way.

However, I did think it would have had a slight impact on the broader market.