I got mine in yesterday. Looks brand new, DPMS lower. Ordered on the 8th received on the 12th with a weekend in between.

You have to have it shipped to whoever is doing your FFL transfer.

I was not taxed.

Most FFL's will only charge you their fee, no tax.

If you are looking for an FFL, seems like you are, I would go to gunbroker.com. They have a listing of all FFL's.

http://www.gunbroker.com/User/DealerNetwork.asp

q-

what's the difference between a 16" M4, a 16"HBAR, and a 20"HBAR? i don't know anything about these things and am not sure what i'm getting...

Towns,
M4 and HBAR refer to barrel profiles. The 18 and 20 are lengths.

HBAR barrells start our about 1" thick for the first 1/3 and then taper to .75" for the next 2/3. H stands for heavy.


M4 barrels taper(under the handgaurds and after the gas block) and rewiden at various points(sight/gas block and muzzle). This helps to reduce weight but also keep the barrel rigid for consistent shots as the barrel warms up.

Thanks, Deat-

So why would someone get a HBAR over a M4 or vice versa? is there an advantage or specific use for each?

my bad on the thumbs down...

Yeah,
Weight vs. Sustained accuracy at a distance.

The HBAR will make better shots over 200 meters as you keep shooting and the barrel gets hot(read: MOA or better). This is something you would want if you were hunting ground hogs.

The M4 is lighter, thus easier to carry and will make consistently good shots up to 300 meters(read minute of terrorist). This is something you want if you moving a lot and shooting larger targets, i.e. humans.

Most carbines are M4, whereas most varmint guns are HBAR and most target guns are Bull(.90" the entire length).

Next we can talk twist rates, 1/7 or 1/9.

"Funny how justice often smells like gunsmoke." Mauser101 from arfcom

"Give me a gay republican anyday over the total dumbassery that is the Democratic party." hrcAg

[This message has been edited by deatsman (edited 11/13/2007 9:40a).]

[This message has been edited by deatsman (edited 11/13/2007 9:41a).]

I am ok at answering most of these questions but the true gurus are at AR15.com.

That place will answer all you could ever want to know.

It's pretty overwhelming over there and to be honest, a little frightening how into these some people are w/ night vision, etc.

Its called BRD, black rifle disease. I am technically on my third AR. You will find the whole gambit over there, from cops to military to survivalists to seperitists(sp?) to guys that just like to shoot and hunters. Take most of it with a grain of salt but some of those guy know their stuff.

AR-15.com can be a good resource and has a good number of knowledgeable people that post there. You have to be careful though because the majority of the people that post there talk out of their asses. Lots of collectors and people that think the best accessories are the ones that look the coolest with few actual shooters. Also quite a few crazies, some of the posters on there scare me. Just like any message board you have to sift through the BS to figure out who actually knows what they are talking about.

deats, tell me a little bit about twist.

Thanks

so what barrel is most versatile? does anyone know the weight difference between the HBAR and the M4?

if i want a rig that's fun to shoot and could take down a deer (are these thing accurate enough for a scope?) which should i get?

quote:

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deats, tell me a little bit about twist.

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Ok. I'll try to keep this fairly high level.

Original M16 were 1:14 to shoot a 55gr bullet. They were quickly changed to a faster spin of 1:12 to shoot better in all air densities.

Post Vietnam, the SAW was being developed and needed a bullet that would be more effective at longer range(600m), so the ss109(green tipped, 61.7gr) bullet was created. It ideally shot in a 1:9 twist barrel but the SAW also had to shoot a tracer that was ideally shot from a 1:6 barrel. Thus the SAW ended up with a compromise barrel of 1:7.

The ss109 bullet became the M885 load, or current NATO standard for 5.56. This load was horribly inaccurate out of a 1:12 barrel.

The next step was to start issuing 1:9 twist M16s. And they did.

But then the war on terror broke out and the spec ops guys wanted a meaner bigger bullet. So after lots of hoopla a 77gr Sierra Match King was adopted. But to get the best accuracy and range out these loads they needed 1:7 twist barrels. So now some of those guys carry 1:7 twist M4s.

So next logical evolution in AR's occured. Every Tom, Dick, and harry wanted a 1:7 that could shoot big bullets(65gr+) better.
And then the hunting guys said hey, we want some 1:7 twist barrels so that we can shoot 70-77 grain bullets better too. And out they came. Most major manucatures now offer 1:7 and 1:9 twist guns.

So which one do I want?

Well good question. The 1:9 is by far the most versatile. It will shoot any bullet on the market today very accurately.

The 1:7 will shoot the bigger bullets more accurately but will literally spin the lighter bullets (<50Gr) to pieces as they exit the muzzle.

I like my 1:9 guns.

quote:

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if i want a rig that's fun to shoot and could take down a deer (are these thing accurate enough for a scope?)

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There is a story I read on ar15.com about an old Sargent in the army that hated the M16 and relished his M14. He would ***** and moan about having to shoot them and train on them. Then one day some guys saw him shooting an AR15 at a high power match and they questioned him about it. He said "Shoot a black rifle or get beat by one."

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which should i get?

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For deer hunting, I would go with an AR15 chambered in 6.8SPC(.277cal).
Lower components are all the same but the upper is slightly different. Ko-Tonics would be a great place to buy all you need and then pick up a complete lower at a gun store or gun show.


"Funny how justice often smells like gunsmoke." Mauser101 from arfcom

"Give me a gay republican anyday over the total dumbassery that is the Democratic party." hrcAg

[This message has been edited by deatsman (edited 11/13/2007 2:49p).]

[This message has been edited by deatsman (edited 11/13/2007 3:00p).]

Thanks deats, that was very informative.

i looked at that page, Deats, but that ammo looks too expensive and elusive to me. if i can't get ammo for it on Cabela's i'm not going to mess with it.

can anyone tell me if it's illegal to shoot a deer with a .223 in TX (i guess i'd use the 70 gr round)?

also, do these rigs come with a front sight? are they removable if i wanted to put a real scope on it?

Thanks for all the help!

t

quote:

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i looked at that page, Deats, but that ammo looks too expensive and elusive to me. if i can't get ammo for it on Cabela's i'm not going to mess with it.

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Midway good enough?

I have seen ammo on shelf at Cabelas, Bass Pro, and Academy.

quote:

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can anyone tell me if it's illegal to shoot a deer with a .223 in TX (i guess i'd use the 70 gr round)?

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Yes it is legal. Go with 75gr Hornady TAP and make neck or head shots.

quote:

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also, do these rigs come with a front sight? are they removable if i wanted to put a real scope on it?

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Some do. Some don't. But with a scope you won't see it anyway.

sweet-

Thanks for the info! Deats, you're probably the best salesman CMMG Bargin Bin has.

I am an AR guy. Can't help it.

how do I know if I have a 1/7 or a 1/9?

CMMG says they are 1/9.

You can also take off the hand gaurds and look for something like this:



See where that one says 1/7?

ahhh... **** me

they just added these:

quote:

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Olympic Arms .45ACP Rifle

Used, refinished Olympic .45ACP AR carbines have an 11.5/5.5" barrel, A1 upper receiver and new DPMS furniture. Rifles use a standard AR lower and come with 1 dedicated, converted IMI .45 hi cap magazine. These rifles are used and are sold as-is.

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Don't have $700 to blow right now.

I think the OA .45s have been on there for awhile, maybe you just now scrolled down.

I hadn't looked at the site in while until the Jaw asked about his barrel.

OK, here's a question and I know the answer is already on AR15.com and I love the site, but honestly, I just browse it because it's too much information to look for something this specific.

I have a Standard A2 with carry handle.

I'm thinking about buying one of these A4s. However, because of the 20" barrel, I'd like to put a flat top upper on the A2 and put a scope on it so that it would become something of a long distance (for me) rifle that I could, for example, attempt a head or neck shot on a deer with at 100 yards (I'm not that good with the irons). That would leave the shorter AR with the carry handle.

So should I attempt to swith out the upper parts (handle vs. railing)?

How much of a pain is it to switch out these parts or the upper? Does the carry handle/flat top railing have anything to do with the barrel? Am I going to needa gunsmith to do this (I have very little experience in this type of thing outside of cleaing my gun)?

Should I just get a flat top upper for both and say screw the handle?

Advice is appreciate. TIA

After market handguards. Will the $60.00 CTD clamp on work ok, or do I need to spend the $200.00 on a free floating. Just to mount a light and maybe a bipod. Not seriously tactical, and will be used for plinking and pigs.

Kramer,
You are going to need a new A4 upper receiver. You can't take the carry handle off of an A2 upper.

Your barrel, bolt carrier group, and charging handle will fit on it just fine but you will probably want a gun smith to do the swap out of the barrel for you. Unless you have changed a barrel before and have the tools to do it I'd suggest letting someone who knows what they are doing handle it.

Kramer,
CT is spot. If you buy the action block and have a vice you can do it your self. Or any gunsmith will probably do it for $50 in labor. Or if you are in Dallas, Log or I can help. In CS, the guys are Burdett & Son can do it.

Kramp,
I would go with something like these.

CTD stuff is not always up to spec.

OK, then I guess the next question is price.

How much can I trade my current Wilson, chrome-moly, 20", 1:9, A2 upper for? Any chance I could even trade for an A4?

You want to keep the barrel right? All you will be looking to sell/trade is the actual upper receiver that the barrel threads into.

Look around, I have no idea what an A2 upper is selling for these days.

I know we've discussed HBAR's before, but are they really nessescary for plinking and varmit hunting or would the normal m4 being ok.

I also remember seeing something about a mechanical difference between the M4 and the mid-length ARs. I'm thinking there was something bad about the m4s but can't remember. Do you know anything about this?

Deatsman is giving you all good info. I have several (OK, 8) AR's. .223's, 9mm's, 6.8 & .308 and a couple of SBR's and suppressors...BRD is right. My wife has her own 10.5" suppressed A-1...its infectous too!

You can hunt with them and compete with them, I do both. With good bullets, 60 grn or up, you can kill a Texas whitetail DRT (dead right there). No need for head/neck shots.

Winchester's 60 grn PP is what DPS carries and it will get the job done. Most others will as well.

Somebody asked about M4 profile barrels...the M4 profile (all those cuts and diameter changes on the barrel forward of the FSB - front sight base-) is designed to allow a grenade launcher (M203) to be attached to the carbine. The M4 has caught on commercially because everyone wants to have what the .mil uses...thats it. No difference in performance between an M4 and a standard 16" carbine barrel. For general use, the M4 is the way to go. It is lighter weight than the carbine (strait barrel), and light weight is where its at in an AR.

Somebody asked about H-BAR's. There is no proven advantage to the H-BAR, it's all marketing. Again, the commercial market has pushed heavy barrells as the answer to accuracy for varmit hunters so, of course, you have to have one on an AR, right? Wrong. They do heat up slower, but they also cool much slower. And all that weight does not increase accuracy, which = Fail.

Someone asked about rebuilding an upper. This takes a good bit of know how and some special tools. Its not for the inexperienced. It aint rocket science either...but some special tools are required and the factories like to use glues like red Lock-tite and Rockset when they put things together, so it takes a little learning to figure out how to get them apart...dont learn on your own stuff! I build my own, starting with the second one I ever owned, and have built 4 rifles for friends...so if I can do it, anyone can.

Besides the beautiful thing about the AR is that it is the Legos of rifles. Buy another upper that is what you want...then you will have two! Cruise the Equipment Exchange(EE) forum on Arfcom. If you could dream it up, it will appear for sale there sometime soon at a reasonable price. After you have your new upper, sell your old one on the EE. Its a great market place.

Dont be scared by Arfcom, its a great web page...populated by all the loonies mentioned above and by many more Doctors, Lawyers and professonials from every field imagineable...remember, AR's for grown ups is NOT a cheap hobby. Check out the General Discussion forum in the General section, there are some scary smart folks on there...and a few like me!

Ask away if I can help...I'm done in the Football forum...

PP '89 aka Brazos on Arfcom




[This message has been edited by Puryear Playboy (edited 11/14/2007 12:39a).]

SpoetzlAg,

As far as mechanical accuracy goes the M4 verses the 20 inch will be about the same, it really depends on the quaility of the barrel more than anything else. My stainless 10.5 inch WOA (White Oak Armaments) will out shoot most production barrels all day long (1.5 inch groups at 200).

The longer barrel gives you two things that are desirable (well, 3 if you count sight radius, but thats not an issue here): 1.) Higher velocities due to longer barrel length, always a good thing...and 2.) Smother recoil due to the rifle length gas system. The carbine gas system is more violent and not as smooth as the rifle (or mid-length) gas systems. This not a big deal for accuracy, but it helps in general scheme of things.

For long range work, the 20 or even a 24 is prefered to the carbine. The hot set up in the competitive world, and now in the .mil worlds with the Army/USMC SDM-R (Designated Marksman Rifle) is the 18" barrel with a rifle length gas system.

PP '89

Appreciate the info, very informative and I'm 98% sure I'm going to purchase one soon (mostly likely a bargain bin CMMG). I know it's not cheap but in the end it's actually cheaper then what I was sinking on paintball... and I only played that about once a month before I quit going all together.

quote:

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You want to keep the barrel right?

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Well, yes, but if I can find another 20" A4, and I'm looking to sell mine or trade it to keep costs low, why not just trade the whole upper and get a whole new upper? This would negate the need for a gunsmith and still get me to what I want.

Am I wrong in my thinking here?