txags92 said:

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Leggo My Elko said:

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dermdoc said:

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I am working and will try to listen later. Can someone give Cliff notes?

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• Questions on staffing and camper / consoler ratio
• Lack of information about the severity of the rainfall
• Questions on Camp Revenue and revenue per session
• A lot of reinforcement to the idea that everything ran through Dick.

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I think the clear message through all of this that needs to sink in at every camp everywhere is that even if there is one clear leader who is the "heart and soul" of the camp, the leadership and responsibilities in times of emergency need to be much broader than that. Delegating responsibility for various things needs to happen before the emergency situation starts, not in the middle of it. Simply having a flood siren sound to play over the loudspeaker and telling every adult that if they heard that sound to get to the flats cabins if they could do so safely to start helping would have likely saved every life at Mystic. There were plenty of adults there that could have helped, but they did nothing because they didn't know they were needed.

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This message reached manufacturing and the military a while back…but these smaller operations like camps, probably not.

What is needed is the NTSB equivalent for for post flood disasters. FEMA and flood maps have not been the answer.

There is a concept called Normalization of Deviance. At its core, the normalization of deviance is a gradual process where individuals or groups accept lower standards of performance/safety until those lower standards become the norm. This shift often happens incrementally, making it difficult to recognize until a significant failure occurs.

Commercial aviation has really done a deep dive into this, and it is really applicable to the Guadalupe flooding last year.

A few good links, and you can see how this describes precisely Camp Mystic, and in fact most all of the camps, as well as the State of Texas regulatory bodies.

https://sma.nasa.gov/docs/default-source/safety-messages/safetymessage-normalizationofdeviance-2014-11-03b.pdf?sfvrsn=c5421ef8_4 Excellent discussion of groupthink.

https://www.mrgroup.org/updates/the-normalisation-of-deviance-understanding-and-eliminating-a-hidden-threat

Applies to healthcare too, Dermdoc, as I imagine you are aware.
The normalization of deviance in healthcare delivery; https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2821100/

As a Naval Flight Officer [a LONG time ago, late 80's-early 90's] in training we had to follow NATOPS, which was to standardize flight operations to reduce aircraft crashes. The US Navy was trying to stop this, even though I don't think the term Normalization of Deviance was ever used.

So in brief, because those cabins had never experienced severe flooding in '100+ years], Dick Eastland [and undoubtedly others] believed wrongly that the cabins were sufficiently safe.
Alas, it simply was not so, because clearly they were in a geologically recent floodplain.

Fdsa said:

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txags92 said:

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Leggo My Elko said:

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dermdoc said:

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I am working and will try to listen later. Can someone give Cliff notes?

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• Questions on staffing and camper / consoler ratio
• Lack of information about the severity of the rainfall
• Questions on Camp Revenue and revenue per session
• A lot of reinforcement to the idea that everything ran through Dick.

---

I think the clear message through all of this that needs to sink in at every camp everywhere is that even if there is one clear leader who is the "heart and soul" of the camp, the leadership and responsibilities in times of emergency need to be much broader than that. Delegating responsibility for various things needs to happen before the emergency situation starts, not in the middle of it. Simply having a flood siren sound to play over the loudspeaker and telling every adult that if they heard that sound to get to the flats cabins if they could do so safely to start helping would have likely saved every life at Mystic. There were plenty of adults there that could have helped, but they did nothing because they didn't know they were needed.

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This message reached manufacturing and the military a while back…but these smaller operations like camps, probably not.

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And commercial/military aviation as I just mentioned.
It's still being incorporated into health care through accreditation bodies like The Joint Commission TJC.

insulator_king said:

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What is needed is the NTSB equivalent for for post flood disasters. FEMA and flood maps have not been the answer.

There is a concept called Normalization of Deviance. At its core, the normalization of deviance is a gradual process where individuals or groups accept lower standards of performance/safety until those lower standards become the norm. This shift often happens incrementally, making it difficult to recognize until a significant failure occurs.

Commercial aviation has really done a deep dive into this, and it is really applicable to the Guadalupe flooding last year.

A few good links, and you can see how this describes precisely Camp Mystic, and in fact most all of the camps, as well as the State of Texas regulatory bodies.

https://sma.nasa.gov/docs/default-source/safety-messages/safetymessage-normalizationofdeviance-2014-11-03b.pdf?sfvrsn=c5421ef8_4 Excellent discussion of groupthink.

https://www.mrgroup.org/updates/the-normalisation-of-deviance-understanding-and-eliminating-a-hidden-threat

Applies to healthcare too, Dermdoc, as I imagine you are aware.
The normalization of deviance in healthcare delivery; https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2821100/

As a Naval Flight Officer [a LONG time ago, late 80's-early 90's] in training we had to follow NATOPS, which was to standardize flight operations to reduce aircraft crashes. The US Navy was trying to stop this, even though I don't think the term Normalization of Deviance was ever used.

So in brief, because those cabins had never experienced severe flooding in '100+ years], Dick Eastland [and undoubtedly others] believed wrongly that the cabins were sufficiently safe.
Alas, it simply was not so, because clearly they were in a geologically recent floodplain.

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We had a situation like that at the company I work for about 15-20 years ago. We were doing our office's annual OSHA 8-hr refresher training, and the training was being led by our corporate safety manager. He was reviewing our safety performance for the past year and gushing about how much better it was than the prior year based on lost time days and cost. Then he made the statement that "we had the same number of incidents, but we were fortunate not to have had the one big incident that involved multiple people and lost days that skewed all the statistics."

Think about that for a second. We had the same number of incidents. We were fortunate (another name for luck) to not have the one big one that "skewed the statistics". That is not something to celebrate. We still had incidents occurring, but we just got lucky is not a winning safety motto in any company, organization, industry, etc. Until we are able to drive the number of incidents down and show year over year improvement in that category, we have not achieved anything worth celebrating.

Mystic had the same problem. They had been flooded before. There had been water in cabins before. They were just "fortunate" that their "plan" had not resulted in anybody getting killed before. So they were complacent and thought they would be safe again in the future. Having cabins within or just a foot or two above the 100 year flood plain should have been a red flag that always meant the next flood (bigger than a 100-yr) could be worse and result in those cabins being flooded and cutoff from safe evacuation. They instead took it to mean those cabins were safe from flooding.

My primary take away from yesterday and today.

Camp Mystic had no plan, much less any training on a plan, in the event of a major emergency of ANY kind, much less a flash flood.

Kolkhorst driving home the fact these people dont deserve to run a camp this year or ever

what's the context behind them not reported the deaths yet?

it's Texas law to report deaths that happen on your camp. Mystic has not reported the 27 deaths. They have not stated why. If I had to guess, they probably think the intent of the law is to make sure a death is not "hidden", and these were obviously not that.

AustinCountyAg said:

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Kolkhorst driving home the fact these people dont deserve to run a camp this year or ever

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I like her a lot. She has been on the right side of a lot of issues that are important to me. Would gladly vote for her for Governor in the future.

sellthefarm said:

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Man, just tuned in over lunch. Politicians are just the worst. I wish there was someway to do all this without giving all these attention hungry politicians the mic.

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me too. It's obvious Mystic was at fault and the Eastlands too. But it takes a special brand of ******* to say to the Eastlands, "your dad was pretty heavy handed, huh?". Regardless of all that happened, their dad is dead.

This hearing this morning has felt like a funeral for Camp Mystic and the Eastlands ever running a camp again.

I just don't see how they open in 28 days.

Leggo My Elko said:

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Marvin_Zindler said:

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This hearing this morning has felt like a funeral for Camp Mystic and the Eastlands ever running a camp again.

I just don't see how they open in 28 days.

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Yeah my gut says nothing will come from the criminal investigation, but in terms of the civil side, the facts don't look good for the camp. How they plan on opening this summer is beyond me. From a publicity stand point alone, how can they not see it's a terrible idea.

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they need to tell their attorneys to start settlement talks and tell their realtor to start looking for buyers. Try to walk away with a little money and dignity.

MAS444 said:

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Quote:

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From a publicity stand point alone, how can they not see it's a terrible idea.

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Because they live in a bubble/echo chamber? Probably some of the same reasons this happened to begin with. They do seem very tone deaf.

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I think they're getting a lot of pressure from their families that have had their daughters signed up for camp since birth. They are not lacking in campers wanting to attend. For a lot of these families, this is the start of their daughter's social upbringing.

Leggo My Elko said:

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From a publicity stand point alone, how can they not see it's a terrible idea.

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We did a little study on the other thread and figured they're clearing in the neighborhood of at least $5-$7 MM per year. They don't care about publicity.

TexasAg95 said:

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Leggo My Elko said:

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Marvin_Zindler said:

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This hearing this morning has felt like a funeral for Camp Mystic and the Eastlands ever running a camp again.

I just don't see how they open in 28 days.

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Yeah my gut says nothing will come from the criminal investigation, but in terms of the civil side, the facts don't look good for the camp. How they plan on opening this summer is beyond me. From a publicity stand point alone, how can they not see it's a terrible idea.

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they need to tell their attorneys to start settlement talks and tell their realtor to start looking for buyers. Try to walk away with a little money and dignity.

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The camp operations and the property itself are separate legal entities. I'm interested in how these get intertwined or kept separate throughout this process.

Dick & Tweety owned the camp operations 100% (Camp Mystic) as well as 51% of the property through a family partnership with Dick's siblings.

They said they didn't think flash flood warnings were for them because they weren't in a floodplain. Sir, you live and work on a river! I'm still haunted from just watching the Rescue 911 episode on the Guadalupe River camp.

fc2112 said:

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Leggo My Elko said:

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From a publicity stand point alone, how can they not see it's a terrible idea.

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We did a little study on the other thread and figured they're clearing in the neighborhood of at least $5-$7 MM per year. They don't care about publicity.

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What are the other sources of income they have going on other than camper tuition?

sellthefarm said:

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Man, just tuned in over lunch. Politicians are just the worst. I wish there was someway to do all this without giving all these attention hungry politicians the mic.

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can every politician who asks questions just skip their grandstanding speech before they start their questions?

I have been calling on @TexasDSHS to not renew the camp license for the operators of Camp Mystic for this season until all investigations are complete later this year. Today, House and Senate investigators, after interviewing nearly 140 witnesses, laid out the specific timeline… pic.twitter.com/LlVor6WQlQ

— Dan Patrick (@DanPatrick) April 28, 2026

This is a little over an hour but lays out in great and painful detail the events of that terrible night. I've seen some other links that are live or full days of stuff … thinking this may be the shortest. Apologies if I'm repeating something posted already.

Corps_Ag12 said:

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TexasAg95 said:

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Leggo My Elko said:

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Marvin_Zindler said:

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This hearing this morning has felt like a funeral for Camp Mystic and the Eastlands ever running a camp again.

I just don't see how they open in 28 days.

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Yeah my gut says nothing will come from the criminal investigation, but in terms of the civil side, the facts don't look good for the camp. How they plan on opening this summer is beyond me. From a publicity stand point alone, how can they not see it's a terrible idea.

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they need to tell their attorneys to start settlement talks and tell their realtor to start looking for buyers. Try to walk away with a little money and dignity.

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The camp operations and the property itself are separate legal entities. I'm interested in how these get intertwined or kept separate throughout this process.

Dick & Tweety owned the camp operations 100% (Camp Mystic) as well as 51% of the property through a family partnership with Dick's siblings.

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Based on how we set up businesses, Camp Mystic seems to be set up as a pretty normal LLC. There is an operating side, a holding side, and some other entities. I haven't dug into the businesses to figure out how the other entities are linked, but be aware that they are listed on the lawsuits because the slick attorneys are damn sure going to try to get to all of them.

The long and short of this is that Camp Mystic, does not own the land or the assets. It's an operating entity (Camp Mystic, LLC). The big ticket items like live with the holding company (Natural Fountains Properties) or within the other entities in some fractional amount to limit exposure, help with estate planning, or whatever. So, ideally, Camp Mystic gets sued for a gazillion dollars, but the payouts are limited to insurance and whatever is in the operating accounts which should be very little. They lose nothing but some petty change, dignity, and their reputation, and go back to business when their license is renewed.

But, this situation is anything but ideal or cut and dry, so there are several ways this can go south for them and I'd say losing everything is unlikely, but not out of the realm of possibility in an indirect capacity.

Camps like this are very risky and they usually carry beefy insurance for coverage in situations like this.

Nonetheless, their insurance carrier has probably chewed all the nails off their fingers watching this.

In my opinion, no way the Eastlands are allowed to hold on to Mystic. In any form or fashion.

How can they just "go back to business"? I mean, I guess in some world the holding company divorces the Eastlands and hires completely new ownership. And drastically changes things for safety.

I do not see how the holding company is not liable. If an employee of mine screws up, they are coming after me the owner.
If the holding company is paying the Eastlands in any fashion as employees, they are liable and responsible for the employees' actions.

BrazosDog02 said:

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Corps_Ag12 said:

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TexasAg95 said:

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Leggo My Elko said:

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Marvin_Zindler said:

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This hearing this morning has felt like a funeral for Camp Mystic and the Eastlands ever running a camp again.

I just don't see how they open in 28 days.

---

Yeah my gut says nothing will come from the criminal investigation, but in terms of the civil side, the facts don't look good for the camp. How they plan on opening this summer is beyond me. From a publicity stand point alone, how can they not see it's a terrible idea.

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they need to tell their attorneys to start settlement talks and tell their realtor to start looking for buyers. Try to walk away with a little money and dignity.

---

The camp operations and the property itself are separate legal entities. I'm interested in how these get intertwined or kept separate throughout this process.

Dick & Tweety owned the camp operations 100% (Camp Mystic) as well as 51% of the property through a family partnership with Dick's siblings.

---

Based on how we set up businesses, Camp Mystic seems to be set up as a pretty normal LLC. There is an operating side, a holding side, and some other entities. I haven't dug into the businesses to figure out how the other entities are linked, but be aware that they are listed on the lawsuits because the slick attorneys are damn sure going to try to get to all of them.

The long and short of this is that Camp Mystic, does not own the land or the assets. It's an operating entity (Camp Mystic, LLC). The big ticket items like live with the holding company (Natural Fountains Properties) or within the other entities in some fractional amount to limit exposure, help with estate planning, or whatever. So, ideally, Camp Mystic gets sued for a gazillion dollars, but the payouts are limited to insurance and whatever is in the operating accounts which should be very little. They lose nothing but some petty change, dignity, and their reputation, and go back to business when their license is renewed.

But, this situation is anything but ideal or cut and dry, so there are several ways this can go south for them and I'd say losing everything is unlikely, but not out of the realm of possibility in an indirect capacity.

Camps like this are very risky and they usually carry beefy insurance for coverage in situations like this.

Nonetheless, their insurance carrier has probably chewed all the nails off their fingers watching this.

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I kind of wonder if some of the things that happened over time might blur those clear boundaries between the various entities. With Dick and Tweety owning the camp operation and 51% of the holding company, there may be enough to make a good case that the boundary between the entities was there in name only and not in function.

BrazosDog02 said:

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Corps_Ag12 said:

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TexasAg95 said:

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Leggo My Elko said:

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Marvin_Zindler said:

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This hearing this morning has felt like a funeral for Camp Mystic and the Eastlands ever running a camp again.

I just don't see how they open in 28 days.

---

Yeah my gut says nothing will come from the criminal investigation, but in terms of the civil side, the facts don't look good for the camp. How they plan on opening this summer is beyond me. From a publicity stand point alone, how can they not see it's a terrible idea.

---

they need to tell their attorneys to start settlement talks and tell their realtor to start looking for buyers. Try to walk away with a little money and dignity.

---

The camp operations and the property itself are separate legal entities. I'm interested in how these get intertwined or kept separate throughout this process.

Dick & Tweety owned the camp operations 100% (Camp Mystic) as well as 51% of the property through a family partnership with Dick's siblings.

---

Based on how we set up businesses, Camp Mystic seems to be set up as a pretty normal LLC. There is an operating side, a holding side, and some other entities. I haven't dug into the businesses to figure out how the other entities are linked, but be aware that they are listed on the lawsuits because the slick attorneys are damn sure going to try to get to all of them.

The long and short of this is that Camp Mystic, does not own the land or the assets. It's an operating entity (Camp Mystic, LLC). The big ticket items like live with the holding company (Natural Fountains Properties) or within the other entities in some fractional amount to limit exposure, help with estate planning, or whatever. So, ideally, Camp Mystic gets sued for a gazillion dollars, but the payouts are limited to insurance and whatever is in the operating accounts which should be very little. They lose nothing but some petty change, dignity, and their reputation, and go back to business when their license is renewed.

But, this situation is anything but ideal or cut and dry, so there are several ways this can go south for them and I'd say losing everything is unlikely, but not out of the realm of possibility in an indirect capacity.

Camps like this are very risky and they usually carry beefy insurance for coverage in situations like this.

Nonetheless, their insurance carrier has probably chewed all the nails off their fingers watching this.

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And this is exactly why I said this should have settled before it got this far. If the holding company had just pleaded no contest, they might have been able to divorce the Eastlands and hold on to something. That window is long gone in my opinion. The attorneys and plaintiffs have invested way too much time and money to stop at that.

Quote:

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The long and short of this is that Camp Mystic, does not own the land or the assets. It's an operating entity (Camp Mystic, LLC). The big ticket items like live with the holding company (Natural Fountains Properties) or within the other entities in some fractional amount to limit exposure, help with estate planning, or whatever. So, ideally, Camp Mystic gets sued for a gazillion dollars, but the payouts are limited to insurance and whatever is in the operating accounts which should be very little. They lose nothing but some petty change, dignity, and their reputation, and go back to business when their license is renewed.

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This is why the piercing of the corporate veil is a common legal concept. The theoretical LLC shield gets bypassed and the shareholders are personally liable and any of their interests or assets are fair game.

Fascinating read . . .

https://trishwhitcomb.substack.com/p/how-camp-mystic-was-built-to-survive

Windy City Ag said:

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Quote:

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This is why the piercing of the corporate veil is a common legal concept. The theoretical LLC shield gets bypassed and the shareholders are personally liable and any of their interests or assets are fair game.

Fascinating read . . .

https://trishwhitcomb.substack.com/p/how-camp-mystic-was-built-to-survive

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Thanks for sharing! Flagging to read later; this definitely drew me in...

"The structure behind [Mystic] entities was not accidental. It was designed by one of the country's leading trust and estate lawyers, a man who spent decades teaching wealthy families how to protect their assets from future lawsuits and unforeseen liabilities. His name is Stacy Eastland. He is Dick Eastland's older brother."

Windy City Ag said:

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Quote:

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The long and short of this is that Camp Mystic, does not own the land or the assets. It's an operating entity (Camp Mystic, LLC). The big ticket items like live with the holding company (Natural Fountains Properties) or within the other entities in some fractional amount to limit exposure, help with estate planning, or whatever. So, ideally, Camp Mystic gets sued for a gazillion dollars, but the payouts are limited to insurance and whatever is in the operating accounts which should be very little. They lose nothing but some petty change, dignity, and their reputation, and go back to business when their license is renewed.

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This is why the piercing of the corporate veil is a common legal concept. The theoretical LLC shield gets bypassed and the shareholders are personally liable and any of their interests or assets are fair game.

Fascinating read . . .

https://trishwhitcomb.substack.com/p/how-camp-mystic-was-built-to-survive

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Thanks for that. I am not a lawyer but it sounds like the holding companies may be liable due to Stacy Eastland setting them up? Am I reading that correctly?

Does the camp have a board of directors and can they be brought into this or have they? Probably a who's who of Texas families. Seems like anyone with half a brain in a position of corporate governance would have poked a few holes in the "evacuation" plan, flood planning, camp security etc.

Windy City Ag said:

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Quote:

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The long and short of this is that Camp Mystic, does not own the land or the assets. It's an operating entity (Camp Mystic, LLC). The big ticket items like live with the holding company (Natural Fountains Properties) or within the other entities in some fractional amount to limit exposure, help with estate planning, or whatever. So, ideally, Camp Mystic gets sued for a gazillion dollars, but the payouts are limited to insurance and whatever is in the operating accounts which should be very little. They lose nothing but some petty change, dignity, and their reputation, and go back to business when their license is renewed.

---

This is why the piercing of the corporate veil is a common legal concept. The theoretical LLC shield gets bypassed and the shareholders are personally liable and any of their interests or assets are fair game.

Fascinating read . . .

https://trishwhitcomb.substack.com/p/how-camp-mystic-was-built-to-survive

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I am sure the lawyers out there can lay it out for us, but what has always confused me about this is that when it is laid out clearly what the design is for, doesn't that defeat the purpose of the structure? Same kind of thing applies to tax evasion vs tax avoidance. If you structure a deal so that it achieves some definable benefit other than tax reduction but also just happens to reduce the taxes, it is fine, but if you do it specifically to avoid paying taxes on a transaction that would otherwise be taxed, you can (but don't always) run afoul of tax evasion laws. So if the whole multiple LLC structure was created to separate operational liability from various assets even though the same parties are involved in all parts of the structure, doesn't it have to have some other purpose that is definable to avoid being just a window dressing legally? If all the same parties are involved at various levels and they all profit in various ways from each level, how is the whole thing not treated as one entity, no matter how it is structured in pieces?