TexasCat88 said:

---

Great news for poachers.

---

You seem to think that game wardens coming onto a property and checking everything and everyone is the way that keeps poachers in check.

Sure, it catches some but why do I give up my right to privacy, right to keep people from trespassing (wardens), and have to put up with searches when there's been no crime committed? Because a crime could have been committed? A relatively low level crime at that.

No thanks, I'd like my rights back and if I need the game warden, I'll call him if he's needed just like the sheriff.

I get that hunting/fishing have idiots and it's a sensitive subject to many but this (as it currently is) is an old law that needs to go away just like blue laws

TexasCat88 said:

---

Great news for poachers.

---

4th amendment is great for criminals

My anecdotal GW abuse story from a few years back. Family member has a ranch west of Llano. Been in the in-laws family since the start. 2am, dogs all start going nuts, hears noise outside, grabs a gun, out the front door, sees someone in the back of his truck. "Texas Game Warden". GW had walked the 2 miles in from the gate and was searching the beer cooler in the back of his truck. Family member was so pissed that his wife thought he was going to end up arrested on the spot. Couldnt get any info out of the warden as to why he was there, except that he was checking for deer. He had not given the warden any reason to show up. They dont shoot enough deer to need to break the law. Only thing we could figure was he had kicked off some lease members and they had made a false report, out of spite.

Protecting a deer is not worth our government having that kind of power.

We have had 2 GW encounters on our ranch that gave me pause. Once we saw a truck driving on our main ranch road. When we got close and realized it was a GW we approached and asked him what the issue was. He stated he was new to the area and was just surveilling the area to find out where roads went. We told him he'd always be welcome on the ranch but we'd appreciate a phone call. He went on a tirade about how he had the right to go anywhere. Second time my kids were going spotlighting on the ranch. I called the GW to let him know spotlights would be on the ranch it it was varmint and predator hunting. No problem. GW shows up and stops them and searches entire vehicle before calling me and asking if I knew there were more than just my boys.

On the one hand, that's nearly 100 years of ranching and two run ins. No biggie. Crap happens. On the other, 2 times is too many in a free world. I think on the whole GWs are exceptional at their jobs including public relations. On the other the bad apples stir the biggest pot. Not sure the answer. Gun to head, I say benefit outweighs the negative. But they do hold a lot of power.

GW is state police (as it is posted on the trucks). They should have to follow the same procedures as any other law enforcement. This bill still gives them several ways to get onto private property, including two ways that don't need permission or a warrant.

TexasCat88 said:

---

TAMUallen said:

---

TexasCat88 said:

---

Great news for poachers.

---

You seem to think that game wardens coming onto a property and checking everything and everyone is the way that keeps poachers in check.

---

Yeah...I do.

---

Well, good! They still can, on your land, because you can tell them you'd like it. I'd kindly like for them to buzz off and I'll handle the poachers as needed. No need to force law abiding owners and lessees to warden activities when we don't need or want it.

And cops are to make sure everyone is abiding all laws. But we don't let them enter and search without probable cause or permission because of that pesky 4th amendment

Texas GW's write something along the lines of 1500-2000 charges/tickets for unlawful taking of wildlife per year. And I'd imagine the VAST majority of those started with a complaint from a witness or landowner (probable cause/permission involved), or were on public lands or waterways. These random, causeless nosing around searches can't be yielding much benefit anyway. And I do not buy into "oh, but these laws are special so the 4th doesn't apply"

TexasCat88 said:

---

Great news for poachers.

---

A lot of horrible criminal activity could be prevented/diminished if police were given free reign to enter anyones property at any time. I don't think that's a trade off we want to make.

Gunny456 said:

---

So what about being able to access poaching operations or deer breeder violations that landowners are aware of?

---

Stop being obtuse. Landowner can give them access and others cases would fall under probable cause or warrant.

txags92 said:

---

jpb1999 said:

---

Gunny456 said:

---

So what about being able to access poaching operations or deer breeder violations that landowners are aware of?

---

Stop being obtuse. Landowner can give them access and others cases would fall under probable cause or warrant.

---

He is asking about situations where the landowner is part of the poaching operation.

---

Probable cause or warrant.

txags92 said:

---

jpb1999 said:

---

txags92 said:

---

jpb1999 said:

---

Gunny456 said:

---

So what about being able to access poaching operations or deer breeder violations that landowners are aware of?

---

Stop being obtuse. Landowner can give them access and others cases would fall under probable cause or warrant.

---

He is asking about situations where the landowner is part of the poaching operation.

---

Probable cause or warrant.

---

Good luck developing that when you can't see anything from the road. But I guess letting poachers do whatever they want is better than having a young inexperienced warden mess up your hunt for a few minutes every 17 years or so.

---

Sorry but this is an ignorant/stupid comment.

FamousAgg said:

---

TexasCat88 said:

---

Great news for poachers.

---

4th amendment is great for criminals citizens who don't want or need a tyrannical government dictating how they can or cannot live their lives

---

There, that's what you meant to say.

txags92 said:

---

jpb1999 said:

---

txags92 said:

---

jpb1999 said:

---

Gunny456 said:

---

So what about being able to access poaching operations or deer breeder violations that landowners are aware of?

---

Stop being obtuse. Landowner can give them access and others cases would fall under probable cause or warrant.

---

He is asking about situations where the landowner is part of the poaching operation.

---

Probable cause or warrant.

---

Good luck developing that when you can't see anything from the road. But I guess letting poachers do whatever they want is better than having a young inexperienced warden mess up your hunt for a few minutes every 17 years or so.

---

The amount of poachers caught with a GW absolutely devoid of info on a blind search really isn't much. Complaints, tips, etc all play a big role and would support probable cause

DannyDuberstein said:

---

txags92 said:

---

jpb1999 said:

---

txags92 said:

---

jpb1999 said:

---

Gunny456 said:

---

So what about being able to access poaching operations or deer breeder violations that landowners are aware of?

---

Stop being obtuse. Landowner can give them access and others cases would fall under probable cause or warrant.

---

He is asking about situations where the landowner is part of the poaching operation.

---

Probable cause or warrant.

---

Good luck developing that when you can't see anything from the road. But I guess letting poachers do whatever they want is better than having a young inexperienced warden mess up your hunt for a few minutes every 17 years or so.

---

The amount of poachers caught with a GW absolutely devoid of info on a blind search really isn't much. Complaints, tips, etc all play a big role and would support probable cause

---

Probably pretty good method for catching folks who haven't filled out their back of license log.
Not me!

Gunny456 said:

---

By then, in game law enforcement, your perpetrator is long gone. Surely you understand that right?

---

The recent bust that had over 1200 citations states otherwise.

txags92 said:

---

jpb1999 said:

---

txags92 said:

---

jpb1999 said:

---

txags92 said:

---

jpb1999 said:

---

Gunny456 said:

---

So what about being able to access poaching operations or deer breeder violations that landowners are aware of?

---

Stop being obtuse. Landowner can give them access and others cases would fall under probable cause or warrant.

---

He is asking about situations where the landowner is part of the poaching operation.

---

Probable cause or warrant.

---

Good luck developing that when you can't see anything from the road. But I guess letting poachers do whatever they want is better than having a young inexperienced warden mess up your hunt for a few minutes every 17 years or so.

---

Sorry but this is an ignorant/stupid comment.

---

I think it is ignorant or stupid to underestimate the amount of damage one poaching operation can do the the wildlife populations over a large area, even when all of the killing happens in places where nobody not on the property can view or report what is happening. The recent bust showed that there are plenty of people willing to participate when they dont think they will get caught. That number will only go up if we make it harder for game wardens to do their job.

---

People are not good at keeping their mouth shut or pissing off someone when it comes to any operation of scale

txags92 said:

---

GSS said:

---

txags92 said:

---

Russ11 said:

---

Plus something to be said about going out to a remote property to escape the busy world and then having someone show up on foot in the dark to check you...

I don't think I am willing to give up my personal private freedom because other bad apples are breaking the law.

---

Just put up a high fence and kill/push all the game animals out before you close the last panel and you can tell the game warden to pound sand because you have no game on the property for him or her to check and don't hunt anything. If you want to have game on the property and hunt it, you aren't giving up a personal private freedom that you never had to begin with.

---

I think that is a gross misrepresentation, and response to, of what Russ11 was stating. Where did he state he was trying to do anything related to game laws?

---

He said he isn't willing to give up his personal freedom. Right now, he has game on the property that belong to the state and under existing state law, the wardens have the right to come on his property unannounced to check that he is not violating laws regarding the hunting of those game animals. So he doesn't have that personal freedom right now and nothing in the proposed legislation being discussed is asking him to give up any freedom he already has.

If he wants to enjoy his property free of "harassment" from game wardens, all he has to do is get all of the state owned game off his property and they will no longer have any reason to need to come check his property. Yes it is a ridiculous case example, but the wardens are not there to invade his privacy, they are there to verify that he is not violating laws regarding the taking of state owned resources. Unlike DPS writing speeding tickets or wardens checking boats on public waters, hunting takes place almost exclusively on private land in Texas, so necessarily, enforcing the laws regarding it will also take place almost exclusively on private land.

---

So not only do we not actually ever own the land we pay for, but we also currently do not have the presumption that the property is truly private since the state can enter said property at any time, without a warrant or probable cause.

So much freedom.

Strawman alert. Towel has been thrown in

txags92 said:

---

schmellba99 said:

---

Gunny456 said:

---

By then, in game law enforcement, your perpetrator is long gone. Surely you understand that right?

---

The recent bust that had over 1200 citations states otherwise.

---

IIRC, The initial arrest was a spur of the moment happenstance incident where a game warden busted a couple of guys moving one deer. The rest of the cases and the citations that came from it started from that bust.

---

Moving a deer on a public roadway and caught via a traffic stop. Not blindly snooping on private property with no tip or information whatsoever

Like I said, with an operation of any size, there is going to be coming and going, a lot of people involved, and it's a sport where people love to brag and show off. These things result in probable cause that get operations investigated and caught

Texarkanaag69 said:

---

Gunny, could the landowner give written permission to the GW to have access to the land anytime he wanted for purposes of law enforcement?

---

Yes.

You can do that now with your house, car, etc. if you want to. Absolutely nothing says you cannot freely give consent for anybody to enter your property if you want. No different than if you own some land and have a really good friend that you tell "you don't have to ask to come hunt or fish or whatever, come anytime".

TAMUallen said:

---

TexasCat88 said:

---

Great news for poachers.

---

You seem to think that game wardens coming onto a property and checking everything and everyone is the way that keeps poachers in check.

Sure, it catches some but why do I give up my right to privacy, right to keep people from trespassing (wardens), and have to put up with searches when there's been no crime committed? Because a crime could have been committed? A relatively low level crime at that.

No thanks, I'd like my rights back and if I need the game warden, I'll call him if he's needed just like the sheriff.

I get that hunting/fishing have idiots and it's a sensitive subject to many but this (as it currently is) is an old law that needs to go away just like blue laws

---

I'd be willing to bet that the number of poaching violations given for the random visits to the dove field, duck blind or deer camp is pretty close to zero.

The number of stupid citations like incorrectly or not filling out harvest log, didn't have your specific dove in specific piles, didn't keep your ducks separate from the guy next to you, etc. however, most likely encompass 95% or more of citations given.

txags92 said:

---

schmellba99 said:

---

txags92 said:

---

GSS said:

---

txags92 said:

---

Russ11 said:

---

Plus something to be said about going out to a remote property to escape the busy world and then having someone show up on foot in the dark to check you...

I don't think I am willing to give up my personal private freedom because other bad apples are breaking the law.

---

Just put up a high fence and kill/push all the game animals out before you close the last panel and you can tell the game warden to pound sand because you have no game on the property for him or her to check and don't hunt anything. If you want to have game on the property and hunt it, you aren't giving up a personal private freedom that you never had to begin with.

---

I think that is a gross misrepresentation, and response to, of what Russ11 was stating. Where did he state he was trying to do anything related to game laws?

---

He said he isn't willing to give up his personal freedom. Right now, he has game on the property that belong to the state and under existing state law, the wardens have the right to come on his property unannounced to check that he is not violating laws regarding the hunting of those game animals. So he doesn't have that personal freedom right now and nothing in the proposed legislation being discussed is asking him to give up any freedom he already has.

If he wants to enjoy his property free of "harassment" from game wardens, all he has to do is get all of the state owned game off his property and they will no longer have any reason to need to come check his property. Yes it is a ridiculous case example, but the wardens are not there to invade his privacy, they are there to verify that he is not violating laws regarding the taking of state owned resources. Unlike DPS writing speeding tickets or wardens checking boats on public waters, hunting takes place almost exclusively on private land in Texas, so necessarily, enforcing the laws regarding it will also take place almost exclusively on private land.

---

So not only do we not actually ever own the land we pay for, but we also currently do not have the presumption that the property is truly private since the state can enter said property at any time, without a warrant or probable cause.

So much freedom.

---

No more seasons and no more bag limits boys…we are FREE! Kill anything you want anytime you want…there's no tyranny allowed here!

---

Can you be more drama llama and come up with a more absurd straw man argument? I bet you can, but it would be pretty hard to do.

txags92 said:

---

schmellba99 said:

---

Gunny456 said:

---

By then, in game law enforcement, your perpetrator is long gone. Surely you understand that right?

---

The recent bust that had over 1200 citations states otherwise.

---

IIRC, The initial arrest was a spur of the moment happenstance incident where a game warden busted a couple of guys moving one deer. The rest of the cases and the citations that came from it started from that bust.

---

So...GW's didn't have to randomly Navy Seal their way onto property with NOD's, suppressed MP5's thermals and clandestinely placing listening devices?

You mean they saw somebody doing something that was suspect, used their legal authority to stop and investigate, then translated that stop and investigation into...wait for it, wait for it......probable cause to continue further investigation?

But how is that even possible? According to you the ONLY way GW's ever catch anybody is by randomly accessing property through the current legal authority they have. There is no other way they have ever caught criminals in the act.