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HB1379- Game Warden access limits..
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Last: 15 sec ago by txags92
People that are poachers don't really care about the laws, most don't even poach on their own property, and the game wardens I've known don't really abuse the existing laws on entering your property. I'm not sure this law is going to change much, it will possibly give poachers / game law abusers more leverage but I'm in the opinion it's not gonna swing the pendulum much in either direction.
People that want to break the law regarding animals & poaching will do it either way… but most people (even poachers) don't take deer unless their going to eat it so I'm also of the opinion that they probably need to extend the deer season longer (in some areas) because of the over population of deer we see in some areas..if a person is poor and hungry they will shoot a deer all year long most likely
People that want to break the law regarding animals & poaching will do it either way… but most people (even poachers) don't take deer unless their going to eat it so I'm also of the opinion that they probably need to extend the deer season longer (in some areas) because of the over population of deer we see in some areas..if a person is poor and hungry they will shoot a deer all year long most likely
BQ92 said:
Bottom line: this is not about solving an active issue. Instead this is leveraging fear to attract votes for unrelated items.
I think the colloquialism is "a solution in search of a problem"
txags92 said:How do you get a warrant with probable cause to prove that somebody is hunting out of season and killing dozens of deer beyond their bag limits on a 3,000 acre property where you can't see their camphouse or processing area from the road? How do you get a warrant with probable cause that people are hunting dove over a baited field without being able to go look for bait in the field?Capt. Augustus McCrae said:
Limiting government is never a bad thing. The "I've never had anybody do anything to me, so I don't see a problem with it" crowd just haven't added "yet" to their sentence.
What's wrong with getting a warrant? If you invite them onto your property to see something suspicious, they don't need a warrant. Otherwise, the 4th amendment protects you from this exact behavior.
Sure would be nice if someone would develop drones and satellite imagery capabilities to see what was happening on a property.
fullback44 said:
People that are poachers don't really care about the laws, most don't even poach on their own property, and the game wardens I've known don't really abuse the existing laws on entering your property. I'm not sure this law is going to change much, it will possibly give poachers / game law abusers more leverage but I'm in the opinion it's not gonna swing the pendulum much in either direction.
People that want to break the law regarding animals & poaching will do it either way… but most people (even poachers) don't take deer unless their going to eat it so I'm also of the opinion that they probably need to extend the deer season longer (in some areas) because of the over population of deer we see in some areas..if a person is poor and hungry they will shoot a deer all year long most likely
A guy I went to high school with was a habitual poacher up until the point where he killed someone while driving drunk . His family had a lot of land on the outskirts of Austin that got sold to WalMart. His daddy was smart enough to do a 1031 exchange and roll that into a ranch in South Texas. All that land is now in a trust so the chances of them getting sued out of it are reduced. My high school friend lives down on that ranch now, probably hunting out of season (I don't know. I try not to associate with him). The story on him in high school was that several of our buddies had seen him shoot deer, jump the fence to cut the back straps off, and leave the rest of it to rot.
Some poachers are just stupid. This guy was just a flat out criminal.
This is retaliation for the CWD bust. Bunch rich pissed off guys. I can't believe yall think this would be a good thing for our wildlife in Texas. Its not hard to follow our game laws.
So how do you classify the warden walking out to a duck blind in a flooded field while hunters are hunting and shooting during the prime time around sunrise? What about a deer blind while hunting? Dove field?INIGO MONTOYA said:
I have not heard of one instance of game warden abuse - maybe some inconveniences. I've had them check licenses while hunting - and frankly I was glad they were out there doing their job. If you want to protect certain things - you may have to give up some freedoms to do so. This would hurt law abiding citizens and help those that are not.
Just called someone who would know and this ain't going no where.
When you buy a license and hunt that is part of it, you know you may be checked at any time. Their job is to check that people who are hunting are following the rules, the laws don't say their job is only to check that people who are done hunting followed the rules. By your logic I guess they shouldn't stop a boat and check it because it is in a great spot and getting bites like crazy?
fullback44 said:
People that are poachers don't really care about the laws, most don't even poach on their own property, and the game wardens I've known don't really abuse the existing laws on entering your property. I'm not sure this law is going to change much, it will possibly give poachers / game law abusers more leverage but I'm in the opinion it's not gonna swing the pendulum much in either direction.
People that want to break the law regarding animals & poaching will do it either way… but most people (even poachers) don't take deer unless their going to eat it so I'm also of the opinion that they probably need to extend the deer season longer (in some areas) because of the over population of deer we see in some areas..if a person is poor and hungry they will shoot a deer all year long most likely
We've had poachers coming on my place all my life, 65+ years, and they without exception cut off the antlers and leave the rest.
So we have 1-2 game wardens assigned to some counties. If they wait until everybody finishes their hunt to go check, they are getting at most 1-2 people checked per day. If they watch, check their database to see if anybody on your land has a hunting license, then approach quietly and ask to see a license, they are at most going to take a few minutes of your time. If they approach any other way, they likely saw something that made them think they needed to come check you right away. You may not be aware that you did something to arouse suspicion, but it doesn't mean you didn't. Maybe they are coming across the field to look to see if it was illegally baited for dove along the way. Maybe they wanted to come at you from the front so you saw them and didn't get surprised by them showing up behind you.Mas89 said:So how do you classify the warden walking out to a duck blind in a flooded field while hunters are hunting and shooting during the prime time around sunrise? What about a deer blind while hunting? Dove field?INIGO MONTOYA said:
I have not heard of one instance of game warden abuse - maybe some inconveniences. I've had them check licenses while hunting - and frankly I was glad they were out there doing their job. If you want to protect certain things - you may have to give up some freedoms to do so. This would hurt law abiding citizens and help those that are not.
drmwvr said:
I would imagine the use of drones will increase if this passes.
A bill has been filed that would allow property owners to dispatch drones flying over their property (with limitations, of course).
I never minded the GWs coming on my land to access the larer place behind us. It saved them a few hours of driving way around. I did mind them not closing gates and cows getting mixed up between me and the other ranch. The GW denied it many times but I finally put up cameras and then shared the evidence with his supervisors. Never heard if there was any discipline but he never stepped foot on our place again.
Anybody that has read any of my posts over the years are aware that I am a huge property rights advocate. I am also a supporter of our game wardens and biologist and the rigorous enforcement of our game laws.
I would ask you guys, who I'm sure, at one time or another, watched Lone Star Law, ….or any of you who really understand and are educated on our Texas Wildlife Code…, to honestly assess the penalties and fines that Texas has for game violations. For the most part they are minimal in penalties, $$ of fines are laughably lenient.
Yet, our game wardens are charged with the enforcement of game laws on fish and wildlife that are state property that reside almost entirely on private lands.
I agree wholeheartedly on the limiting of government overreach or the government involvement in my life. So, yes, this bill, if passed, will supposedly protect me from abuses of game wardens entering my property.
However, with that being said, as I said above, in all my years of owning a ranch, or growing up on one, or over 65 years of hunting and fishing…. I have never…. Not Once, had a game warden abuse any of their authority. In all my old years of sitting in a deer blind, I have never had a warden drive up to my blind and check anything…..and in all my thousands of dove hunts, I have had wardens check me a total of three damn times and they didn't disrupt anything of my hunt. ….Quite to the contrary, they actually told me where some doves were flying! I'll further that with the statement that I have no knowledge of any of my fellow landowners or ranchers ever experiencing anything abusive as well.
Are there anecdotal examples of the abuse? Seems there is. Is it rampant? Seems it's not. But now we pass another law that is yet another to add to the thousands that the government already has?
Somebody made a statement that the wardens should only be allowed to check you after the hunt. How is the warden supposed to do that on a deer lease if he can't get to the hunters camp to check?
Or how are they supposed to find that baited field your neighbor has for doves? Or check the deer camp with 20 out of state hunters on 400 acres your neighbor leases out and you hear shooting at all hours?
We can't have them ( the wardens) wait and check hunters coolers on the highway because, after all that upsets people as well.
This bill, if passed, imho, will benefit and protect the law breakers. They are the ones who will now take advantage of this law, if passed, to the fullest….and our fish and wildlife will be what pays the price…..an ultimately the law abiding hunter and fisherman as well.
I would ask you guys, who I'm sure, at one time or another, watched Lone Star Law, ….or any of you who really understand and are educated on our Texas Wildlife Code…, to honestly assess the penalties and fines that Texas has for game violations. For the most part they are minimal in penalties, $$ of fines are laughably lenient.
Yet, our game wardens are charged with the enforcement of game laws on fish and wildlife that are state property that reside almost entirely on private lands.
I agree wholeheartedly on the limiting of government overreach or the government involvement in my life. So, yes, this bill, if passed, will supposedly protect me from abuses of game wardens entering my property.
However, with that being said, as I said above, in all my years of owning a ranch, or growing up on one, or over 65 years of hunting and fishing…. I have never…. Not Once, had a game warden abuse any of their authority. In all my old years of sitting in a deer blind, I have never had a warden drive up to my blind and check anything…..and in all my thousands of dove hunts, I have had wardens check me a total of three damn times and they didn't disrupt anything of my hunt. ….Quite to the contrary, they actually told me where some doves were flying! I'll further that with the statement that I have no knowledge of any of my fellow landowners or ranchers ever experiencing anything abusive as well.
Are there anecdotal examples of the abuse? Seems there is. Is it rampant? Seems it's not. But now we pass another law that is yet another to add to the thousands that the government already has?
Somebody made a statement that the wardens should only be allowed to check you after the hunt. How is the warden supposed to do that on a deer lease if he can't get to the hunters camp to check?
Or how are they supposed to find that baited field your neighbor has for doves? Or check the deer camp with 20 out of state hunters on 400 acres your neighbor leases out and you hear shooting at all hours?
We can't have them ( the wardens) wait and check hunters coolers on the highway because, after all that upsets people as well.
This bill, if passed, imho, will benefit and protect the law breakers. They are the ones who will now take advantage of this law, if passed, to the fullest….and our fish and wildlife will be what pays the price…..an ultimately the law abiding hunter and fisherman as well.
Well said sir.
Been hunting for over 40 years in south texas, number of times i've seen a game warden- 2.
Been saltwater fishing for same amount of time, number of times i've seen game warden- eleventy million.
Conclusion- riding in a boat is more fun than walking in snake infested brush country.
Been saltwater fishing for same amount of time, number of times i've seen game warden- eleventy million.
Conclusion- riding in a boat is more fun than walking in snake infested brush country.
I do wish that they would back off on lake LBJ. It's gotten to where it's not worth risking a single toddie on an afternoon cruise. Also on entrapment "safety check" stop they do childish crap like make all passengers hold a correct life jacket over their head while doing the check. Totally uncalled for, the boat area isn't that big that they can't see that everyone has a jacket, or better yet, just counties them in their clear storage container.
We never experienced that on our places. They, along with any other savvy outdoorsman, landowner, rancher or hunter knows the old rule of " leave a gate as you found it."
The breeders know they have a large well of support from people who are inclined towards private property rights.. they are not shy about abusing that support by twisting their own actions around to make themselves out to be the martyrs.CorpsTerd04 said:
This is retaliation for the CWD bust. Bunch rich pissed off guys. I can't believe yall think this would be a good thing for our wildlife in Texas. Its not hard to follow our game laws.
"Oh poor us…we went to TPWD and applied for a permit that will allow us to take a state resource and sell it as private livestock for our own benefit. Those big meanies have the gall to come on our land (as expressly allowed by the law and the permit we applied for) and forcing us to test our animals for diseases (as expressly called out in the permit we applied for) because we keep spreading that disease around the state. How dare they come and do the things we expressly signed up to let them do by applying for a permit to make a fortune off of turning wild game into livestock."
That's coming from above….. boat accidents and BUI's have been on a pretty steep upward trend since Covid on LBJ, Travis, etc. Lots of law suits filed from injuries and deaths and Texas lawmakers have received lots of heat from it….which has trickled down to TPWD and the enforcement divisions.
Plus lots of folks don't know didly of how to safely operate watercraft…..see "Unqualified Captain" thread.
Plus lots of folks don't know didly of how to safely operate watercraft…..see "Unqualified Captain" thread.
Look out now. I am a proponent of property rights… but you know my thoughts on raising deer in pens.
Most of the wardens I knew in the HC hated and dreaded lake patrol duty. They didn't want to mess with all the drunks.
They didn't want to mess with all the drunks.
txags. Remember about 15-20 years ago they tried to pass a bill that would make all whitetails privately owned?
Texas Wildlife Association, Exotic Wildlife Association, and other groups fought hard to oppose it and it was defeated pretty handily. I think the same will happen to this bill actually.
Texas Wildlife Association, Exotic Wildlife Association, and other groups fought hard to oppose it and it was defeated pretty handily. I think the same will happen to this bill actually.
By then, in game law enforcement, your perpetrator is long gone. Surely you understand that right?
Gunny456 said:
Most of the wardens I knew in the HC hated and dreaded lake patrol duty.
Yea I get it, I've gotten to where I don't go out on weekends due to the morons allowed to operate a boat. And I've followed some of these kids in daddies $250,000 wakeboard boat loaded with coeds. Quite scenic at times, but still not a good combination. Still, those types are pretty obvious. I'm the old guy barely breaking plane with either very young grands in jackets, or other olds. There's no need to treat us olds like a kindergarten class, but I don't envy them their job.
I will say that in the 25 years that I've lived here, every boat fatality has happened between 10 pm and 2 am. However, GW with boats show up around 10 am and leave at sundown so not even here at the time of previous accidents. Go figure
I think more discretion from wardens to ensure they aren't obviously and super unnecessarily ruining hunts for people. But, if this were to pass you better believe (if it could be tracked) poaching numbers will go up. If a game warden has suspicion someone is poaching on a property, there's no real time to get a warrant in time to make it work. You have big enough property, there's plenty of ways to hide things and find ways to not get busted when you leave the property.
I'm all about freedom and personal property rights, but make no mistake if a warden cant enter private property without a warrant or landowner permission the wildlife resource will then take the brunt of it. Not always or by everyone, but no chance this doesn't increase poaching to some degree.
I'm all about freedom and personal property rights, but make no mistake if a warden cant enter private property without a warrant or landowner permission the wildlife resource will then take the brunt of it. Not always or by everyone, but no chance this doesn't increase poaching to some degree.
I think this is a good thing. We know our local wardens quite well due to where our ranch is located, but that doesn't mean they should be able to usurp the laws that other LEO's have to follow. In fact, as it stands, all of our local LEO already contact us for access when needed or they have a reason to be on it. My number is is posted on the gate and we have no issue letting them in for a look around if they so desire. They can even look in my freezers, have a beer if they like, we are pretty laid back and appreciate what they do for a living. We are very environmentally and conservationist minded. But again, we have nothing to hide, so I also understand that perspective. Either way, the law is set up as it is for a reason and I think it is reasonable for a Game Warden to have to follow it.
In 40 years, I have only had one bad experience with a game warden, and that was on a lease, on a private property, where a warden stopped all of us during an epic bird hunt to diddle our shotguns. This is not OK to me and I did not appreciate it. In this case, they can sit at the gate, and block it if they so wish and wait until we leave to check guns and bird counts. Other than that, I really have not had any issues of any sorts or overstepping of any kind.
I have never been a fan of 'pre-emptive' checks. It's like you have to prove your innocence.
Perhaps there is a way, in 2025, to speed up the warrant process? Surely that could be done digitally and nearly immediately. Why not make that process easier so the law can be followed quickly?
In 40 years, I have only had one bad experience with a game warden, and that was on a lease, on a private property, where a warden stopped all of us during an epic bird hunt to diddle our shotguns. This is not OK to me and I did not appreciate it. In this case, they can sit at the gate, and block it if they so wish and wait until we leave to check guns and bird counts. Other than that, I really have not had any issues of any sorts or overstepping of any kind.
I have never been a fan of 'pre-emptive' checks. It's like you have to prove your innocence.
Perhaps there is a way, in 2025, to speed up the warrant process? Surely that could be done digitally and nearly immediately. Why not make that process easier so the law can be followed quickly?
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One outcome of this is that will effectively gut the antler restrictions. If the GW can't randomly drive onto property to do a spot check or open a cooler, they will never see an illegal buck. If you just take it home and process it yourself you could get away with it.
I predict they start hanging out at bigger or more popular processors and try and catch them there. And they will be a lot less lenient when they do.
I predict they start hanging out at bigger or more popular processors and try and catch them there. And they will be a lot less lenient when they do.
Plus something to be said about going out to a remote property to escape the busy world and then having someone show up on foot in the dark to check you...
I don't think I am willing to give up my personal private freedom because other bad apples are breaking the law.
I don't think I am willing to give up my personal private freedom because other bad apples are breaking the law.
Warrants can definitely be done faster than the old days, having saved templates, email etc but you still need a judge available to sign it (since it is a search warrant not an arrest warrant that means you cant just get any JP). By the time you wrote it, sent it to a judge, he reads and signs you are still looking at close to an hour and that is absolute best bet with all the stars aligned. Then you would have to be able to print it and leave a copy and get a return to the court that signed it. TLDR: it is faster than it used to be but in no way near instant. Source, I write a bunch of warrants.
Just put up a high fence and kill/push all the game animals out before you close the last panel and you can tell the game warden to pound sand because you have no game on the property for him or her to check and don't hunt anything. If you want to have game on the property and hunt it, you aren't giving up a personal private freedom that you never had to begin with.Russ11 said:
Plus something to be said about going out to a remote property to escape the busy world and then having someone show up on foot in the dark to check you...
I don't think I am willing to give up my personal private freedom because other bad apples are breaking the law.
If you have a warden come in and "ruin a hunt", ask them why they did it after they get finished checking what they need to see. You may find out that it was something you did that put them on edge or made them move right away. Keep in mind that these guys are walking up to people on private property that they know are walking around with loaded guns and are not happy to see them. That takes certain level of intestinal fortitude to even do, and most of them come in pretty smooth and quiet specifically so that some hothead doesn't take a shot at them before he can think about it. So if they aren't doing that, either they are so green and wet behind the ears they don't know any better (in which case you can educate them when you discuss their answer to your question), or you did something to make them not approach you that way (in which case they can educate you on what made them react that way). Last resort, do like Hoyt and call/email their supervisor and suggest that they try a different approach in the future.tlh3842 said:
I think more discretion from wardens to ensure they aren't obviously and super unnecessarily ruining hunts for people. But, if this were to pass you better believe (if it could be tracked) poaching numbers will go up. If a game warden has suspicion someone is poaching on a property, there's no real time to get a warrant in time to make it work. You have big enough property, there's plenty of ways to hide things and find ways to not get busted when you leave the property.
I'm all about freedom and personal property rights, but make no mistake if a warden cant enter private property without a warrant or landowner permission the wildlife resource will then take the brunt of it. Not always or by everyone, but no chance this doesn't increase poaching to some degree.
Everybody has a story either about that one warden they met one time who yada yada yada...or has a buddy (who regularly exaggerates about the size of the deer he "almost" got a shot at) who has a fantastical story about how bad the warden was to him. Game wardens are no different than any other law enforcement. There are bad apples. There are guys who are just a-holes or who had a bad day and didn't give somebody the courtesy they should have. Tarring every warden with the behavior of one bad apple is no different than the ACAB crowd's attitude towards the police. Do the warden haters really want to be that guy?
The quoted allowances should provide game wardens all the flexibility any peace officer should need in pursuit of violators.Quote:
"HB 1379 would allow game wardens to enter private property with owner permission, under probable cause, warrant execution, or while determining an emergency."
Suppose this same "authority", as it currently exists for GWs extended to one's home/domicile? Realistically, how is that any different than entering one's home without permission?
Private property is to be respected. Barns, lodges, RVs, etc should all be protected, under the 4th amendment from intrusion by GWs, without the caveats outlined in the proposed legislation.
I was Dove hunting with a group once, on opening day. The GW came onto the property, locked the gate behind him, and wouldn't let anyone leave without checking their haul (several groups on the property). A guy in our group had an important meeting he couldn't miss...but the GW made him 'wait his turn' as he went around to the various groups, and my friend missed his meeting. I always thought that was a bit unsettling, and questioned why they were allowed to do this, with no cause.
My wife's grandad and a buddy were training their dogs before the upcoming Quail season. They were safely firing their weapons, and did not hunt any animal (only training). Unbeknownst to them, a GW was on the property and watching. They didnt realize he was there until they saw the antenna headed their way. He accused them of hunting outside of season, and they had their guns taken up, and was threatened with having their license revoked. It all got straightened out after a while, but that was a definite over-step, which might have been avoided if the GW talked to them first (the actual property owner).
I know a couple GWs and think most of them are Salt of the Earth type of people. It's an awesome profession and I appreciate what they do. But I dont think they need unfettered access to private property, to do their job, and have seen it cause issues in the past. It's a bit un-Texan, the way it's been.
My wife's grandad and a buddy were training their dogs before the upcoming Quail season. They were safely firing their weapons, and did not hunt any animal (only training). Unbeknownst to them, a GW was on the property and watching. They didnt realize he was there until they saw the antenna headed their way. He accused them of hunting outside of season, and they had their guns taken up, and was threatened with having their license revoked. It all got straightened out after a while, but that was a definite over-step, which might have been avoided if the GW talked to them first (the actual property owner).
I know a couple GWs and think most of them are Salt of the Earth type of people. It's an awesome profession and I appreciate what they do. But I dont think they need unfettered access to private property, to do their job, and have seen it cause issues in the past. It's a bit un-Texan, the way it's been.
Out of curiosity, I wonder what constitutes 'probable cause'.Quote:
"HB 1379 would allow game wardens to enter private property with owner permission, under probable cause, warrant execution, or while determining an emergency."
So as long as you get all the deer you killed illegally into the barn before giving the game warden permission to come in the gate, you are fine? Game warden isn't coming into your house without probable cause in any case.BoerneGator said:The quoted allowances should provide game wardens all the flexibility any peace officer should need in pursuit of violators.Quote:
"HB 1379 would allow game wardens to enter private property with owner permission, under probable cause, warrant execution, or while determining an emergency."
Suppose this same "authority", as it currently exists for GWs extended to one's home/domicile? Realistically, how is that any different than entering one's home without permission?
Private property is to be respected. Barns, lodges, RVs, etc should all be protected, under the 4th amendment from intrusion by GWs, without the caveats outlined in the proposed legislation.
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