Gatekeeping doesn't preserve the original intention, it's something bitter fans use to justify hate toward people who are latecomers to something. Saying that a new game by the same company and same director isn't a "true" entry or "dumbed down" is ludicrous, especially when considering how intentional everything Miyazaki-directed games are. The world evolves - in the case of games, it's technology, design techniques, audience, etc. - and at the same time, the people making the game grow older and have more experience that shapes their approach.Rooster4Ag said:
I am a gatekeeper, I said it in my post. Gatekeeping media is the only way to preserve the original intention of that media, this is especially true in video games where the only way to expand sales is to "dumb down" the content of a game. Accessibility is directly in line with a bland featureless experience since it has to cater to all play styles, and can't do one in depth.
The spirits are an obvious issue, many of these multi enemy bosses aggro are clearly programmed for ashes, where your mimic tear just become a sponge so that you can 1v1 the boss. Look back into the series and the multi enemy boss fights have always been ****, especially in DS2. O&S and Twin princes are good because their aggro isn't designed to be annoying. I would recommend playing ds2 to understand what I mean by this. There is an obvious intended difficulty to these games, and that's tight combat centered around 1v1 encounters, with no summons. Sekiro and bloodborne don't follow this as closely because you have more tools at your disposal to avoid damage, like the rally system in bloodborne, and the blocking in sekiro.
The pistol comment doesn't even make sense. Bloodborne combat was different and was designed around aggressive combat. Parrying was essential to that games combat, in a way summoning wasn't for souls. Elden ring is souls, despite the faster paced combat (which is an issue in its own, since you don't have the tools like in sekiro and bloodborne to avoid taking damage.
Did you even get to Miquella's Haligtree?!? The capital city? The sewers? Nokron?Rooster4Ag said:
I agree with the game wearing itself out. Limgrave and Liurnia, and the first 3 legacy dungeons are so good, that's its unbelievable how bad they ****ed up the back half. Rushed development, just like ds1. Nowadays making a quality game takes 10 years.
Rooster4Ag said:
1. Have you played the rest of their games. I only ask because many people are playing this as their first souls experience and they have nothing to compare it to. Elden Ring is already better than 99% of triple A releases of the past 10 years. If this is your first souls game you will tend to defend it pathologically, as I do occasionally with DS2, since that was my first souls game. Sinking 100 hours into that game, death after death, you form an emotional connection to it.
My complaints in ascending order of importance:
- reused assets that ruin the exploration, and totally ruin any replay ability (which all the other games have in spades). Once you see one catacomb with crafting material and a spell, you've seen them all. Reused bosses is criminal, and out of like 150 bosses, only like 3 are original. I remember beating Astel, and then going to the min South of the haligtree only to find another Astel! Imo in about 6 months people the honeymoon phase will wear off and people will notice this, since it will ruin replay ability for non lore-hunters. This isn't even going into the 15 tree spirits, etc.
- Because of above, the open world is empty, just like breath of the wild. The legacy dungeons with their tight design are the best parts of the game, and I think most would agree with me. The legacy dungeons in here are so good, that it's upsetting that the open world was so copypasted.
- Boss design is pretty bad and pretty lazy in this game, oscillating from wildly difficult and unfair, to very easy (bc of the open world) I am pretty good at these games, but after the 50th gank boss fight in a cave I'm exhausted. Triple crystalians, godskin duo, gargoyles, etc. This was everyone's complaint with DS2, but I see no one in the souls community complaining about the exact same issue here, when it's even worse. Additionally, it seems that bosses were designed around summoning spirit ashes, and that's very troubling because unfortunately that's not the "correct" way to play this game. People talk about an easy mode, that's always been the difficulty selector in these games. You can't design fights around spirit ashes, and make it so that the fight is bad, insanely difficult, or just annoying without a summon. Multi-enemy boss fights have to be designed in a specific way or they're ***** Twin demon princes from DS3 is the perfect example of a good multi-enemy boss fight (best multi boss in the series imo). You have to have one boss that is aggro and one that isn't. When you have bosses interlocking their attacks, that boss fight is *****
TL;DR
Lazy non-legacy dungeon design that was clearly padding for the world size, boring exploration with little actual reward, atrocious boss design outside of a few fights.
Imo there are objective methods of judging these games because we can compare them to each other. And I think things like level design and bosses are clearly inferior to basically every other title. Let me pose a question with an obvious answer. What if the world size was shrunk down by 50% and 5-6 more legacy dungeons were added, would the game be better off? Absolutely. The legacy dungeons in Elden Ring are some of the best in the series, with Stormveil/Raya Lucaria/Leyndell probably having THE best design in the entire series.
You don't put a feature like multiplayer into a game without it being an intended feature. Look up any interviews where Miyazaki talks about it - it's clear he doesn't see it as an ancillary feature and never has. And understanding movement patterns has been a key to Souls bosses since the beginning. Part of mastering the mechanics is knowing the tells and knowing how to properly dodge or counter or get out of range. And I'm not saying all the bosses are well designed (you're definitely entitled to your own opinion on the quality there), but they're not doing anything that isn't present in any of the previous games.Rooster4Ag said:
The second part is exactly what I said, summoning and kindling (DS1 only) has been your difficulty switch, however summoning has always been an ancillary feature rather than an intended mechanic. You might use summons your frist playthrough, but eventually you should be weaned off of them. The combat in this game is so precise and tightly designed that progression is all but expected. In elden ring this isn't true because of the bad enemy and boss design. Progression in the previous games involve mastering the mechanics, not memorizing movement patterns over the course of several hours.
Anyone who has ever been in any sort of group or community understands why gatekeeping is necessary, and yes, in a medium such as games, that have a stiffer barrier to entry to new players because they're interactive, it's very clear that the only way to greatly expand the audience is to dumb the mechanics down.
Rooster4Ag said:
I 100% agree with your first point, armor being actually useful and not just for fashion would help balance the gameplay out, this kinda worked with pose, but poise created such a problem in DS1 that they changed it.
To your second point, at least according to the lore the people in the world ARE dying endlessly, hollowing/beasthood/returning to the erdtree have always been imo very clever lore rationale that prevents "gamification" of the games systems.
Also I like your handle lol.
Rooster4Ag said:
My point isn't that these features aren't playstyles, it's that they have always been optional, in elden ring because of gank bosses unless you want to have a very unfun and annoying time summoning is basically a requirement. Idk you've played DS2, but there is a DLC fight where you basically fight 3 NPC's and it's a horrendous fight of just running around in circles if you want to do it without a summon. As I've said before, multi-enemy boss fights have to be designed in a certain way or they just don't work properly for multiple playstyles to be used to combat the bosses. This is why people **** on DS2, and why fights like O&S are beloved. The multi-enemy boss fights that DO work are great. Everyone creamed their pants over abyss watchers bc it was a multi-enemy boss fight that was so well designed. Boss and enemy design is a critical flaw of elden ring, and this is only compounded by the reused assets. It would be one thing if you had to fight royal rat vanguard from DS2 once, but in Elden ring you have to fight him 5 times.
Let me reiterate, the actual level design of the legacy dungeons (as in, when From actually did what they're best at) is exquisite. Idk if you've played Nioh, but the combat in Nioh is a million times more interesting and tight than all of the souls games (sekiro being the exception). But Nioh has **** level design. Combat has not been souls shining light, it's been great bosses and expertly designed areas and levels.
No. Health bar is overrated.AgDev01 said:
If things are hitting you too hard get a bigger health bar, use one of the damage reduction talisman and take off the soreseals. There are tons of ways to mitigate damage in this game you just have to use them.
DallasTeleAg said:
No. Health bar is overrated.
You need to go level. As you level, your damage reduction increases, which increases your survivability. The reason this game has bosses who are seemingly so hard is because it wants you to go out and explore. From exploring, you then level, making the boss fights easier.
Also, you need to stop getting hit as much. From games should not be about taking hits, but avoiding them. Most From bosses will kill you with 2-3 hits. If you are getting chained that much on a fight, you need to learn the fight better.
With all the complaining from Rooster, who claims to be a Souls vet, I have one thing to say... git gud.
This is why the game is so enjoyable, to me. All of the options for different builds, and trying other builds. Hit a wall? Go do something else. It is just a different game from the other From games.zip04 said:
I'm level 105 now and doing a Strength build as a vegabond:
Vigor: 33
Mind: 20
Endurance: 32
Strength: 54
Dexterity: 14
Intelligence: 15
Faith: 9
Arcane: 7
Radahn's Lion Armor (complete set)
Dual welding heavy claymore (+18) and Lordsworn's Heavy Greatsword (+17)
Erdtree's Favor, Great-jar's Arsenal, Dragoncrest Shield Talisman +1, and Crimson Amber Medallion +1
Leveling my Strength to the soft cap of 60 and then going Endurance again until I can equip the jelly shield and a colossal weapon or dual wield colossal weapons while maintaining medium weight (just to try it out).
I don't have any issues with the scaling or the boss difficulty. It is challenging but enjoyable. If I can't beat a boss within an hour or 2, I do other stuff until I am ready to try again.
You come across as arrogant calling this a "design flaw". In reality you don't like some of the game design and that's fine. But not every game has to follow the same cookie cutter mechanics as every other game. That would be boring and to deviate from that is not a "flaw"...its just...different. Cope or move on.Rooster4Ag said:
It's basically Dark Souls, no need to cope. The mechanics of the game are basically exactly the same, just with more quality of life improvements like the jump button. Irrespective of whether it's Dark Souls or not, get your head out of the clouds. A 60 vigor softcap to negate oneshot damage is a game design flaw, it's not that vigor scaling is the system, it's that enemy damage scaling is just bad.
AgDev01 said:
If things are hitting you too hard get a bigger health bar, use one of the damage reduction talisman and take off the soreseals. There are tons of ways to mitigate damage in this game you just have to use them.
Cromagnum said:
So I beat Renalla's easy ass like a drum and working 50/50 on Caelid and the Capital as it's not clear which one really should be next. Ranni's questline made me believe it was Caelid, but Gideon is telling me to go to the Capital.
In either case. I did my revenge tour on tree sentinel and beat his ass. I didn't realize he had two brothers gatekeeping the capital to gangbang you. Finally got through that cluster, only to realize that they also have an abusive uncle who happens to be a Sithlord just up the road.
