Rossticus said:

---

So, still not ACTUALLY negotiating in good faith. Show of hands as to who here is surprised?

From Putin's standpoint, these are only peace talks insofar as there will only be peace when Ukraine agrees to their (essentially) terms of surrender. Terms that permit Russia to once again assert unchecked influence on a region and people he sees Russia as being entitled to.

---

Been saying this for a few years now. That statement has been self evident (to me) since Russia invaded.

Just to refresh your memory about where I am coming from here, I long ago said this:

1. Putin is a bad actor. This war is his fault. He is an aggressive, murderous dictator. I want Russia to be defeated in this war.

2. Russia is not going to lose this war unless Europe and the US commit troops.

3. I do not want US troops to engage in a war with Russia.

4. Ukraine must not be allowed to join NATO. The US must not guarantee whatever agreement is decided upon.


Assuming that the US and Europe are not going to commit troops or threaten to use nukes, what alternatives does Ukraine have?

Rossticus said:

---

So, still not ACTUALLY negotiating in good faith. Show of hands as to who here is surprised?

From Putin's standpoint, these are only peace talks insofar as there will only be peace when Ukraine agrees to their (essentially) terms of surrender. Terms that permit Russia to once again assert unchecked influence on a region and people he sees Russia as being entitled to.

---

I agree. He still has a long time to go until this conflict would be unsustainable for him, imo.

The west night have to pull a russian tactic- escalate to de-escalate

Who?mikejones! said:

---

Rossticus said:

---

So, still not ACTUALLY negotiating in good faith. Show of hands as to who here is surprised?

From Putin's standpoint, these are only peace talks insofar as there will only be peace when Ukraine agrees to their (essentially) terms of surrender. Terms that permit Russia to once again assert unchecked influence on a region and people he sees Russia as being entitled to.

---

I agree. He still has a long time to go until this conflict would be unsustainable for him, imo.

The west night have to pull a russian tactic- escalate to de-escalate

---

Exactly what I've been trying to call for. Arm Ukraine to the teeth until it becomes so painful for the Russians that they have to negotiate.

Waffledynamics said:

---

Who?mikejones! said:

---

Rossticus said:

---

So, still not ACTUALLY negotiating in good faith. Show of hands as to who here is surprised?

From Putin's standpoint, these are only peace talks insofar as there will only be peace when Ukraine agrees to their (essentially) terms of surrender. Terms that permit Russia to once again assert unchecked influence on a region and people he sees Russia as being entitled to.

---

I agree. He still has a long time to go until this conflict would be unsustainable for him, imo.

The west night have to pull a russian tactic- escalate to de-escalate

---

Exactly what I've been trying to call for. Arm Ukraine to the teeth until it becomes so painful for the Russians that they have to negotiate.

---

Give them 20 or 30 Tomahawks...

Let Putin sweat through that.

Who?mikejones! said:

---

Rossticus said:

---

So, still not ACTUALLY negotiating in good faith. Show of hands as to who here is surprised?

From Putin's standpoint, these are only peace talks insofar as there will only be peace when Ukraine agrees to their (essentially) terms of surrender. Terms that permit Russia to once again assert unchecked influence on a region and people he sees Russia as being entitled to.

---

I agree. He still has a long time to go until this conflict would be unsustainable for him, imo.

The west night have to pull a russian tactic- escalate to de-escalate

---

Trump has tried flattery with him and it clearly won't work. The only thing he will respond to is strength (actual strength and not mean tweets). The only answer now that will actually end this seems to be to tell Putin and Zelenskyy the lines are getting drawn where they are now and the EU countries are going to send a few thousand troops to make sure they don't just invade again (and we can continue to provide intelligence and sell Ukraine weapons with no guardrails). He's not dumb enough to risk killing NATO troops, which is the whole reason why he's trying to block Ukraine from joining anyways since it ends their ability to invade again.

I just dont think there's a way to provide enough money and weapons to ukriane to make outin nervous.

The only real card left is for a western nation to start providing troops along with equipment. But no one is willing to do that so putin knows theres little to risk. More of the same for him.

Its not enough.

Who?mikejones! said:

---

Its not enough.

---

Those Tomahawks can hit targets that will make Moscow and St Petersburg actually feel the pain.

That will make Putin more inclined to back down...

He doesn't want the non-peons to know that things aren't as rosy as his propaganda machine has told them.

Waffledynamics said:

---

Who?mikejones! said:

---

Rossticus said:

---

So, still not ACTUALLY negotiating in good faith. Show of hands as to who here is surprised?

From Putin's standpoint, these are only peace talks insofar as there will only be peace when Ukraine agrees to their (essentially) terms of surrender. Terms that permit Russia to once again assert unchecked influence on a region and people he sees Russia as being entitled to.

---

I agree. He still has a long time to go until this conflict would be unsustainable for him, imo.

The west night have to pull a russian tactic- escalate to de-escalate

---

Exactly what I've been trying to call for. Arm Ukraine to the teeth until it becomes so painful for the Russians that they have to negotiate.

---

No thanks, Ukraine cant afford to pay us and we are broke. F that

samurai_science said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

Who?mikejones! said:

---

Rossticus said:

---

So, still not ACTUALLY negotiating in good faith. Show of hands as to who here is surprised?

From Putin's standpoint, these are only peace talks insofar as there will only be peace when Ukraine agrees to their (essentially) terms of surrender. Terms that permit Russia to once again assert unchecked influence on a region and people he sees Russia as being entitled to.

---

I agree. He still has a long time to go until this conflict would be unsustainable for him, imo.

The west night have to pull a russian tactic- escalate to de-escalate

---

Exactly what I've been trying to call for. Arm Ukraine to the teeth until it becomes so painful for the Russians that they have to negotiate.

---

No thanks, Ukraine cant afford to pay us and we are broke. F that

---

But Euros are now paying us. If they want to buy a ton of weaponry from us and gift it to Ukraine then why would we tell them "no"?

#neverforget

Who?mikejones! said:

---

I just dont think there's a way to provide enough money and weapons to ukriane to make outin nervous.

The only real card left is for a western nation to start providing troops along with equipment. But no one is willing to do that so putin knows theres little to risk. More of the same for him.

---

You're exactly correct. Winning a war by proxy is a fools errand, as we have seen for over three years now.

I was quoting Nortex' acronym he and the other Putin fanboys don't use the word invasion
I was also being intentionally somewhat cheeky after somebody commented in jest about how important Putin had the NKs in his corner

samurai_science said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

Who?mikejones! said:

---

Rossticus said:

---

So, still not ACTUALLY negotiating in good faith. Show of hands as to who here is surprised?

From Putin's standpoint, these are only peace talks insofar as there will only be peace when Ukraine agrees to their (essentially) terms of surrender. Terms that permit Russia to once again assert unchecked influence on a region and people he sees Russia as being entitled to.

---

I agree. He still has a long time to go until this conflict would be unsustainable for him, imo.

The west night have to pull a russian tactic- escalate to de-escalate

---

Exactly what I've been trying to call for. Arm Ukraine to the teeth until it becomes so painful for the Russians that they have to negotiate.

---

No thanks, Ukraine cant afford to pay us and we are broke. F that

---

Didn't they sign a big mineral deal with us? Pretty sure we'd like to protect our interest there.

Ag with kids said:

---

Who?mikejones! said:

---

Its not enough.

---

Those Tomahawks can hit targets that will make Moscow and St Petersburg actually feel the pain.

That will make Putin more inclined to back down...

He doesn't want the non-peons to know that things aren't as rosy as his propaganda machine has told them.

---

Ukraine has already hit Moscow.

It'd take more than a dozen to change putin. It'd have to be a threat that is indefinite.

Also, over and over throughout modern warfare, we've learned simply bombing cities from afar doesn't crumble a population. It usually increases the resolve of the bombed nation

samurai_science said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

Who?mikejones! said:

---

Rossticus said:

---

So, still not ACTUALLY negotiating in good faith. Show of hands as to who here is surprised?

From Putin's standpoint, these are only peace talks insofar as there will only be peace when Ukraine agrees to their (essentially) terms of surrender. Terms that permit Russia to once again assert unchecked influence on a region and people he sees Russia as being entitled to.

---

I agree. He still has a long time to go until this conflict would be unsustainable for him, imo.

The west night have to pull a russian tactic- escalate to de-escalate

---

Exactly what I've been trying to call for. Arm Ukraine to the teeth until it becomes so painful for the Russians that they have to negotiate.

---

No thanks, Ukraine cant afford to pay us and we are broke. F that

---

Europe is now paying the USA. Notice how some weeks ago when Trump jammed that new favorable trade agreement down the EU's throat as well as strong armed all the NATO countries to increase defense spending, that Trump started talking more harshly about Putin? Mafia Trump got his protection money from the EU. The EU's purchasing of natural gas from the USA has also greatly increased over the past 3 years.

So you really think a superpower like the USA isn't cynically profiting from this in some ways in its own self interests? Ha! If you did actually see signs that USA was actually profiting in some ways from this proxy war by taking advantage of Europe desperately needing us, would you then be indifferent to this whole thing, given no American troops are dying either? Or do you have also have other ideological issues with the USA helping Europe against an asshat like Putin despite the EU being our largest trading partner?

OldArmy71 said:

---

Just to refresh your memory about where I am coming from here, I long ago said this:

1. Putin is a bad actor. This war is his fault. He is an aggressive, murderous dictator. I want Russia to be defeated in this war.

2. Russia is not going to lose this war unless Europe and the US commit troops.

3. I do not want US troops to engage in a war with Russia.

4. Ukraine must not be allowed to join NATO. The US must not guarantee whatever agreement is decided upon.


Assuming that the US and Europe are not going to commit troops or threaten to use nukes, what alternatives does Ukraine have?

---

I agree with all but 4. Change 4 and add 5 and 6.

4. Encourage Ukraine to join NATO.

5. Impose staggering oil sanctions on Russia, China, India and any other that are complicit.

6. Continue to sell arms to NATO nations to arm Ukraine.

Wait and see. Putin will crumble.

Here is the best case for Russia from this adventure. This is them 'winning' from where they were in 2022:

1) Ukraine collapses and puppet government controlled by Russia is installed.

2) Ignited a new arms race against Western Europe where economic powers like Germany are significantly increasing their defense spending.

3) Actually Several hundred miles of MORE border with NATO because they chased Finland etc. into it.

4) Congrats and good luck dealing with and controlling a Western Ukraine population that absolutely hates Moscow. Probably a major pain in the ass for decades to come.

5) Even very conservative estimates, lost 150K+ killed (holy crap! Just think about that number and imagine if the USA lost 150K+ in a war whet the political fallout would be) and who knows how many wounded. And all those wounded or not Vets are expecting to be supported by the government with significant benefits for their sacrifice for decades to come cause that is what you promised them to get them to go fight. You going to do that or screw them over?

6) You got really good at making shells and drones etc., spending like 40% of the government budget on defense during this while your civilian infrastructure and civilian economy got the short end of the stick. Have fun recovering from that.

7) You lost influence in places like the Middle East and Africa. One of your favorite international mercenary outfits that you used to meddle in other places, the Wagner group, imploded from all this.

Above is the scenario if Russia 'wins'. This is what happens when you got a single guy in power for a couple decades plus who gradually surrounds himself more and more with yes men, a full totalitarian government that suppresses criticism and dissent.

bobbranco said:

---

OldArmy71 said:

---

Just to refresh your memory about where I am coming from here, I long ago said this:

1. Putin is a bad actor. This war is his fault. He is an aggressive, murderous dictator. I want Russia to be defeated in this war.

2. Russia is not going to lose this war unless Europe and the US commit troops.

3. I do not want US troops to engage in a war with Russia.

4. Ukraine must not be allowed to join NATO. The US must not guarantee whatever agreement is decided upon.


Assuming that the US and Europe are not going to commit troops or threaten to use nukes, what alternatives does Ukraine have?

---

I agree with all but 4. Change 4 and add 5 and 6.

4. Encourage Ukraine to join NATO.

5. Impose staggering oil sanctions on Russia, China, India and any other that are complicit.

6. Continue to sell arms to NATO nations to arm Ukraine.

Wait and see. Putin will crumble.

---

Russia as a rule doesn't crumble ...not really since the Mongols 800 years ago. And Putin will have to be carried out in a body bag...this brinkmanship desire on here is fool hardy.

We have no legitimate interests in Ukraine. We've never had any. This contrived minerals deal is not really a thing yet. Let the Europeans handle it if they want war.... Otherwise, I don't care what happens in Ukraine.

You cannot win at the negotiation table what you can't secure on the battlefield.

Yeah Russia doesn't crumble. Except the Crimean War. And the Russo-Japanese War. And WWI. And Afghanistan. And the fall of the Soviet Union. And their mutiny and near coup with Wagner.

Who?mikejones! said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

Who?mikejones! said:

---

Its not enough.

---

Those Tomahawks can hit targets that will make Moscow and St Petersburg actually feel the pain.

That will make Putin more inclined to back down...

He doesn't want the non-peons to know that things aren't as rosy as his propaganda machine has told them.

---

Ukraine has already hit Moscow.

It'd take more than a dozen to change putin. It'd have to be a threat that is indefinite.

Also, over and over throughout modern warfare, we've learned simply bombing cities from afar doesn't crumble a population. It usually increases the resolve of the bombed nation

---

I agree that more than a few dozen missiles are needed. But 200+ tomahawks could turn out the lights in Moscow and shut down their economy for lack of fuel.

Would that get them to capitulate and accept occupation? No of course not. It may get them to accept stopping their invasion though.

Z-man, and their information ministry etc. are sure animated about this strike at an ostensible 'appliance' manufacturing facility today.

In Mukachevo, the Russians practically burned down an American company producing electronics—home appliances, nothing military. The Russians knew exactly where they lobbed the missiles. We believe this was a deliberate attack against American property and investments in Ukraine. pic.twitter.com/1TiadwmAqk

— Volodymyr Zelenskyy / Володимир Зеленський (@ZelenskyyUa) August 21, 2025

Get back to me when Ukraine's disinformation/misinformation apparatus rivals Russia's. And when you're equally skeptical of what Russian sources report. I'm not saying Ukrainian info is trustworthy. I'm saying you scrutinize it far more highly than Russia's. I think we should be equally skeptical of both sides since one wrote the book and the other studied under that author.

Trump does want all American factories back on USA soil.

Quote:

---

Russia as a rule doesn't crumble ...not really since the Mongols 800 years ago. And Putin will have to be carried out in a body bag...this brinkmanship desire on here is fool hardy.

---

The Cuban missile crisis would like a word with you.

GAC06 said:

---

Who?mikejones! said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

Who?mikejones! said:

---

Its not enough.

---

Those Tomahawks can hit targets that will make Moscow and St Petersburg actually feel the pain.

That will make Putin more inclined to back down...

He doesn't want the non-peons to know that things aren't as rosy as his propaganda machine has told them.

---

Ukraine has already hit Moscow.

It'd take more than a dozen to change putin. It'd have to be a threat that is indefinite.

Also, over and over throughout modern warfare, we've learned simply bombing cities from afar doesn't crumble a population. It usually increases the resolve of the bombed nation

---

I agree that more than a few dozen missiles are needed. But 200+ tomahawks could turn out the lights in Moscow and shut down their economy for lack of fuel.

Would that get them to capitulate and accept occupation? No of course not. It may get them to accept stopping their invasion though.

---

200 would make them think, I suppose

FIDO_Ags said:

---

Quote:

---

Russia as a rule doesn't crumble ...not really since the Mongols 800 years ago. And Putin will have to be carried out in a body bag...this brinkmanship desire on here is fool hardy.

---

The Cuban missile crisis would like a word with you.

---

And Imperial Russia during WWI, and the USSR had we not intervened in WW2 via lend lease, and the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and numerous other historical losses.

Russia has lost plenty of times. They're not invincible.

Edit: Didn't see GAC already said this stuff.

The Kremlin likely understands that the 2022 Istanbul framework is a non-starter for Kyiv and therefore continues to invoke it in an effort to paint Ukraine as unwilling to negotiate while Moscow continues to delay good-faith peacemaking efforts.⬇️ https://t.co/qXwL5GBMqI pic.twitter.com/OLkwDzVlxi

— Institute for the Study of War (@TheStudyofWar) August 22, 2025

Who?mikejones! said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

Who?mikejones! said:

---

Its not enough.

---

Those Tomahawks can hit targets that will make Moscow and St Petersburg actually feel the pain.

That will make Putin more inclined to back down...

He doesn't want the non-peons to know that things aren't as rosy as his propaganda machine has told them.

---

Ukraine has already hit Moscow.

It'd take more than a dozen to change putin. It'd have to be a threat that is indefinite.

Also, over and over throughout modern warfare, we've learned simply bombing cities from afar doesn't crumble a population. It usually increases the resolve of the bombed nation

---

When and where?

I don't remember this...

Ag with kids said:

---

Who?mikejones! said:

---

Ag with kids said:

---

Who?mikejones! said:

---

Its not enough.

---

Those Tomahawks can hit targets that will make Moscow and St Petersburg actually feel the pain.

That will make Putin more inclined to back down...

He doesn't want the non-peons to know that things aren't as rosy as his propaganda machine has told them.

---

Ukraine has already hit Moscow.

It'd take more than a dozen to change putin. It'd have to be a threat that is indefinite.

Also, over and over throughout modern warfare, we've learned simply bombing cities from afar doesn't crumble a population. It usually increases the resolve of the bombed nation

---

When and where?

I don't remember this...

---

They've sent drones multiple times. One of them hit one of the Kremlin's domes, causing minor damage.

Not sure which of our Russian war threads to put this on, so going with this one, but note as I've stated many times team Biden, and his family were long-time business partners with the Russians as well as Ukrainians and had no interest in preventing, nor ending this war. This is unsurprising as a result to hear confirmed.

UKRAINE: Biden told India to buy Russian oil and LNG. Why would he want to enable Putin to continue the war with Ukraine. Help me understand. pic.twitter.com/LIfVS4P93X

— @amuse (@amuse) August 22, 2025

The bloodshed/war is good business, for many, and not simply a 'team sport' as it is often portrayed by the blue-yellow flag types.

nortex97 said:

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Not sure which of our Russian war threads to put this on, so going with this

---

How about just don't post it
Putin invaded Ukraine
Putin is not interested in a ceasefire or peace deal He wants Ukraine to be vassal state
Trump for all his bluster about ending it day one of his presidency is playing the role of a Putin Apologist

I am glad the to have RT's fresh set of talking points after Putin and Lavrov said Western security guarantees would not be acceptable as part of the peace deal

Lastly you never aswered
The question do you think Putin will negotiate a deal that has meaningful security guarantees for the part of Ukraine that would survive?

Last time you deflected by asking what is a meaningful guarantee
My definition of meaningful security guarantee is whatever The properly elected Leaders of Ukraine and their Allie's think is appropriate. Russia does not get to dictate what sovereign countries negotiate with their Allies.

I suppose Ukraine having nuclear weapons would be something Russia could have an opinion on similarly how the U.S. said Cuba could not have missile but short of nuclear weapons Russia does not get a say in Ukraines ongoing military treaties and readiness

Yes, that's what I typed. It clearly does relate to the shifted attitudes for both Putin and Zelensky though to now finally end this conflict/war, despite its passionate popularity in some quarters of the internet and our political discourse.

The assorted vilification of India over purchases of Russian oil is probably entirely misplaced. Russian oil revenues skyrocketed with the conflict's outbreak, sure, but that was part of the plan for both sides of the proxy war.

I sometimes have trouble with quotes just wanted to make sure I had the quote structure before I typed my actual response and regarding the vilification of India it just shows Trump won't actually sanction Russia

Everybody oils revenue sky rocketed this thing called Covid put a serious dent in demand and prices crashed At one point the spot price of crude went negative because the planet was running out of space to put all the oil that was being pumped out of the ground