First lawsuit filed re: July 4th floods

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dermdoc
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Burdizzo said:

Slicer97 said:

fc2112 said:

I hate to use this term - but it's the only term that fits - I've come to the conclusion that, for many, Camp Mystic was an almost cult like experience. No matter what evidence is produced, in their minds, the camp must survive above all else.

This was my experience working there as well, both from campers and the parents I interacted with at Opening and Closing. And I don't mean that in a derogatory way. I overheard campers talking about how their grandmother was a camper there. Saw how little girls would either freak out with joy or have a look of misery depending on whether they got selected as a Kiowa or a Tonk. For some of these folks, the camp is a part of their family history. A lot of the counselors who were their during my time, especially the ones who were previously campers, still keep in touch to this day.



Yet another anecdote reminiscent of Bonfire.


It is so eerily similar. And at the time, I was strongly in favor of bringing Bonfire back. After I learned more facts, I changed my mind.
Serotonin
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Slicer97 said:

Still, if you're responsible for the safety of children, you have to have a better plan in place. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't. Especially when it comes to acts of nature. At the very least, there should have been an effective means of communication to each of the cabins.

This is it. Flooding is the greatest risk, followed by wildfire.

We're not talking about keeping life preservers under each bed (although given the flooding history it wouldnt be the craziest idea).

But more simple things, like a well-thought out flood plan for counselors and campers and basics like communication and lighting tools.

I hate linking to reddit but read the attached articles below. Mystic has experienced several harrowing floods in the past century.

Given the history and the knowledge of how dangerous hill country flash floods can be, a quick one paragraph procedure for flooding is just not going to be enough.

https://www.reddit.com/r/texas/comments/1ltdvhe/some_newspaper_articles_about_previous_flooding/
StringerBell
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Quote:

To say mystic was negligent either discounts the other lives lost or it poses an argument that everyone involved was equally negligent. Owners of property, agencies who grant permits, departments who audit plans, etc.

i think this is accurate. an even of this impact rarely has one person at "fault". this was a systemic failure on multiple levels including the people who were in charge of the camps.

the senate hearing reflected as much when they said they'd no longer be ok with wavers given to properties in the flood plain. that was them admitting a systemic failure at a level other than the camp.

i still maintain that negligence isnt always an intentional nefarious act. it's the parable of the boiled frog.
Troy91
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Quoting myself from a separate thread on 7/6.

Quote:

It helps to realize that our university graduates a number of people who have to pull out a spreadsheet to analyze anything. In the face of an overwhelming human tragedy, their response is to start pivot tables and data analysis in lieu of an actual human emotion.

Instead of waiting for the data to be collected, they start producing hunches and plans to prevent the last thing that happened.

It is how they cope. Unfortunately, many of them cannot complete their uniquely personal coping mechanism without advertising how the last thing could be prevented.

You can look at any latest thing thread and identify them quickly.

This is a human tragedy and, sometimes, spreadsheets cannot predict the future. I remain hopeful that these individuals will eventually learn to read the room and do their "data analysis" in private.



Anti-taxxer
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dermdoc said:

Anti-taxxer said:

FM 949 said:

I hope you arent basing your "facts" on things posted in this thread by folks and making absolute statements in regards to what did or did not happen.

Like you are?

And this is what I don't get. I think Clarke and Evangeline have posted things that support what I alluded to at the start. I am criticized for not saying everything I knew at the start even after their posts. And to equate this topic to a coaching search seems weird to me.
And I was asked what did I expect when I posted on the thread titled as it was? Maybe not being called melodramatic. Maybe a little more empathy. Maybe a little grace.
To my knowledge, I have not attacked any posters' credibility on here like my credibility has been questioned.
And y'all are the ones who made it about me and my posts. I feel like I have been on trial.
This is not about me. It is not about any poster on here. It is about Mary Grace and all the other campers and counselors who perished. It is about a tragedy that I feel could have been fairly easily avoided with just a little foresight and preparation. I understand disagreeing with me. I do not understand some of the responses and how they were worded.

Gig 'em and God bless!

My comment wasn't directed at you!! You know that, right?? Or was your post in response to the one I quoted?
Txalli
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I didn't sleep well last night - mostly nightmares about this flood event and the precious Mystic girls. As I tossed and turned, I thought most of you Dermdoc and Clarke, as well as my other friends who are grieving.

I just wanted to come on here and say how sorry I am for the loss of your precious Mary Grace. I also cannot imagine balancing the profound grief, trying to make sense of the event, caring for your grieving family, and clearing a path for camp reform in our state government. Clarke, I thought your testimony in front of the House was so eloquent and brave.

You all are carrying such heavy burdens, words that truly fall short of your current reality and grief. I'm not sure I would have the strength or courage to get out of bed each day after losing a daughter/niece. I don't know you all or your faith, but I hope you are okay that I am praying for you. And, truly, I am so sorry for the gaping hole that has been left in your hearts and lives.
dermdoc
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Anti-taxxer said:

dermdoc said:

Anti-taxxer said:

FM 949 said:

I hope you arent basing your "facts" on things posted in this thread by folks and making absolute statements in regards to what did or did not happen.

Like you are?

And this is what I don't get. I think Clarke and Evangeline have posted things that support what I alluded to at the start. I am criticized for not saying everything I knew at the start even after their posts. And to equate this topic to a coaching search seems weird to me.
And I was asked what did I expect when I posted on the thread titled as it was? Maybe not being called melodramatic. Maybe a little more empathy. Maybe a little grace.
To my knowledge, I have not attacked any posters' credibility on here like my credibility has been questioned.
And y'all are the ones who made it about me and my posts. I feel like I have been on trial.
This is not about me. It is not about any poster on here. It is about Mary Grace and all the other campers and counselors who perished. It is about a tragedy that I feel could have been fairly easily avoided with just a little foresight and preparation. I understand disagreeing with me. I do not understand some of the responses and how they were worded.

Gig 'em and God bless!

My comment wasn't directed at you!! You know that, right?? Or was your post in response to the one I quoted?

My post was directed at FM249(who never personally attacked me), Texags 92, and Jock 71. Your posts are great. I do not think I was being melodramatic, was certainly not drunk, and do not need a break as suggested.
dermdoc
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And please go back through this thread and check my posts. Unlike the camp defenders, I never personally attacked other posters for having different opinions than me.
Did I say some stuff about Mystic amd the way it was run. Yes I did. Did I ever stoop to personal attacks on posters even after they attacked me? No I did not.
txags92
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dermdoc said:

Anti-taxxer said:

dermdoc said:

Anti-taxxer said:

FM 949 said:

I hope you arent basing your "facts" on things posted in this thread by folks and making absolute statements in regards to what did or did not happen.

Like you are?

And this is what I don't get. I think Clarke and Evangeline have posted things that support what I alluded to at the start. I am criticized for not saying everything I knew at the start even after their posts. And to equate this topic to a coaching search seems weird to me.
And I was asked what did I expect when I posted on the thread titled as it was? Maybe not being called melodramatic. Maybe a little more empathy. Maybe a little grace.
To my knowledge, I have not attacked any posters' credibility on here like my credibility has been questioned.
And y'all are the ones who made it about me and my posts. I feel like I have been on trial.
This is not about me. It is not about any poster on here. It is about Mary Grace and all the other campers and counselors who perished. It is about a tragedy that I feel could have been fairly easily avoided with just a little foresight and preparation. I understand disagreeing with me. I do not understand some of the responses and how they were worded.

Gig 'em and God bless!

My comment wasn't directed at you!! You know that, right?? Or was your post in response to the one I quoted?

My post was directed at FM249(who never personally attacked me), Texags 92, and Jock 71. Your
posts are great. I do not think I was being melodramatic, was certainly not drunk, and do not need a break as suggested.

Derm, I am sorry if you felt attacked by what I said. The melodramatic accusation was over the line, given what you and your family have gone through. My only problem with what you were saying was that from the very first thread on this tragedy, people had talked about "the plan" that Dick and Glenn and others were following was to move campers out of the low lying cabins and leave them in the ones above the flood plain. Based on all of that information shared, firsthand or otherwise, I was assuming there actually was "a plan" somewhere, even if they didn't execute it and it was inadequate for the storm they experienced. The blurb previously posted from the counselor binder was originally claimed to be from a handout to parents when it was posted, so I took it as that. On this thread, you kept saying there was no plan and cited no claim about how you knew that other than vague statements about finding out during discovery. That was what I took issue with and nothing else. If you felt attacked by me in any other way, please accept my apology for that. I have no desire to pile any other burden onto your shoulders right now.

As you will have noticed, since Clarke and Evangeline clarified what the actual source of that blurb was, that it was the full extent of "the plan", and that even that little bit of "plan" was not followed as written, my tone has changed. I am truly shocked and horrified that there was not a much more significant emergency response plan in writing and covered with the counselors prior to bringing in campers. I am shocked that even with such a weak "plan" written down, they failed to do the basic part by giving each counselor or cabin a way to communicate with camp management 24/7.

While I understand how people can get complacent about what type of flooding to expect given typical storms and warnings, there was and is no excuse for not being better prepared than they were. The cost to outfit the camp with communications equipment would have probably been less than the fees paid by one camper for a summer session. I am actually amazed that it had not become a problem already in the past due to some other kind of emergency situation. As always, I share your desire for this to never happen again to anybody's child and hope that the hard lessons handed out by this flood are not forgotten or swept under the rug at places that did not have any loss of life this time around.
dermdoc
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txags92 said:

dermdoc said:

Anti-taxxer said:

dermdoc said:

Anti-taxxer said:

FM 949 said:

I hope you arent basing your "facts" on things posted in this thread by folks and making absolute statements in regards to what did or did not happen.

Like you are?

And this is what I don't get. I think Clarke and Evangeline have posted things that support what I alluded to at the start. I am criticized for not saying everything I knew at the start even after their posts. And to equate this topic to a coaching search seems weird to me.
And I was asked what did I expect when I posted on the thread titled as it was? Maybe not being called melodramatic. Maybe a little more empathy. Maybe a little grace.
To my knowledge, I have not attacked any posters' credibility on here like my credibility has been questioned.
And y'all are the ones who made it about me and my posts. I feel like I have been on trial.
This is not about me. It is not about any poster on here. It is about Mary Grace and all the other campers and counselors who perished. It is about a tragedy that I feel could have been fairly easily avoided with just a little foresight and preparation. I understand disagreeing with me. I do not understand some of the responses and how they were worded.

Gig 'em and God bless!

My comment wasn't directed at you!! You know that, right?? Or was your post in response to the one I quoted?

My post was directed at FM249(who never personally attacked me), Texags 92, and Jock 71. Your
posts are great. I do not think I was being melodramatic, was certainly not drunk, and do not need a break as suggested.

Derm, I am sorry if you felt attacked by what I said. The melodramatic accusation was over the line, given what you and your family have gone through. My only problem with what you were saying was that from the very first thread on this tragedy, people had talked about "the plan" that Dick and Glenn and others were following was to move campers out of the low lying cabins and leave them in the ones above the flood plain. Based on all of that information shared, firsthand or otherwise, I was assuming there actually was "a plan" somewhere, even if they didn't execute it and it was inadequate for the storm they experienced. The blurb previously posted from the counselor binder was originally claimed to be from a handout to parents when it was posted, so I took it as that. On this thread, you kept saying there was no plan and cited no claim about how you knew that other than vague statements about finding out during discovery. That was what I took issue with and nothing else. If you felt attacked by me in any other way, please accept my apology for that. I have no desire to pile any other burden onto your shoulders right now.

As you will have noticed, since Clarke and Evangeline clarified what the actual source of that blurb was, that it was the full extent of "the plan", and that even that little bit of "plan" was not followed as written, my tone has changed. I am truly shocked and horrified that there was not a much more significant emergency response plan in writing and covered with the counselors prior to bringing in campers. I am shocked that even with such a weak "plan" written down, they failed to do the basic part by giving each counselor or cabin a way to communicate with camp management 24/7.

While I understand how people can get complacent about what type of flooding to expect given typical storms and warnings, there was and is no excuse for not being better prepared than they were. The cost to outfit the camp with communications equipment would have probably been less than the fees paid by one camper for a summer session. I am actually amazed that it had not become a problem already in the past due to some other kind of emergency situation. As always, I share your desire for this to never happen again to anybody's child and hope that the hard lessons handed out by this flood are not forgotten or swept under the rug at places that did not have any loss of life this time around.


I have noticed you have changed. There were quite a few random shots taken at the people being critical of Mystic at the first of this thread also. And you were not worshipping at the feet of Camp Mystic either.
I am from Beaumont and my whole family and a lot of Mystic families are there. It has a huge history in Beaumont with our friends, family, etc.
none of the Mystic families in Beaumont have taken Mystic's side like what has been exhibited on this thread. And the most important thing to these Mystic folks (many are 3 generation families) the only thing talked about is the lives lost. Not Camp Mystic. Or the Eastlands. Or anything else.
BBRex
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Not to oversimplify, but it seems that the big flaw in the plan is that water had never before reached the cabins where the girls died. That led Plan A to be keep the girls in the cabins. Unfortunately, it created a situation in which, once it was apparent that Plan A was going to fail, there was no way for camp counselors to create a Plan B. I think my biggest criticism here would be that there needed to be a river-savvy adult keeping an eye on those cabins, even as the other were being evacuated. When it became likely that the water was going to reach the point where the girls would be trapped, the call to evacuate had to be made.
txags92
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BBRex said:

Not to oversimplify, but it seems that the big flaw in the plan is that water had never before reached the cabins where the girls died. That led Plan A to be keep the girls in the cabins. Unfortunately, it created a situation in which, once it was apparent that Plan A was going to fail, there was no way for camp counselors to create a Plan B. I think my biggest criticism here would be that there needed to be a river-savvy adult keeping an eye on those cabins, even as the other were being evacuated. When it became likely that the water was going to reach the point where the girls would be trapped, the call to evacuate had to be made.

I think the biggest flaw was that there really was no plan. If your plan is to keep kids in the cabins until they are told otherwise, but don't have any means or mechanism to communicate any change of plans, then you have no coherent plan. They needed to be able to communicate to the cabins girls were being kept in and there needed to be a reasonable "if this happens, get out of the cabin and get up the hill by any means necessary" decision point in the plan. The capability to change the plan that was maintained in Dick's head went away when he was swept away trying to drive girls to safety. Having only one person in charge of directing things works right up until that person is unavailable.
Anti-taxxer
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txags92 said:

BBRex said:

Not to oversimplify, but it seems that the big flaw in the plan is that water had never before reached the cabins where the girls died. That led Plan A to be keep the girls in the cabins. Unfortunately, it created a situation in which, once it was apparent that Plan A was going to fail, there was no way for camp counselors to create a Plan B. I think my biggest criticism here would be that there needed to be a river-savvy adult keeping an eye on those cabins, even as the other were being evacuated. When it became likely that the water was going to reach the point where the girls would be trapped, the call to evacuate had to be made.

I think the biggest flaw was that there really was no plan. If your plan is to keep kids in the cabins until they are told otherwise, but don't have any means or mechanism to communicate any change of plans, then you have no coherent plan. They needed to be able to communicate to the cabins girls were being kept in and there needed to be a reasonable "if this happens, get out of the cabin and get up the hill by any means necessary" decision point in the plan. The capability to change the plan that was maintained in Dick's head went away when he was swept away trying to drive girls to safety. Having only one person in charge of directing things works right up until that person is unavailable.

This. I remember initially thinking how heroic Dick was to try to save the girls in his truck.

Then my thoughts turned to "how was he gonna drive allllll those girls anywhere, with the water rising as quickly as it was?" What if his truck stalled out? What if it (as it did) was swept away?

It has become obvious there was no real plan. Also reasonable that they could never have anticipated how high the water would go. But I just really struggle with those girls being told to stay in their cabins while the water was rising around them, with no way to communicate to anyone they needed help.

Then Dick shows up in his truck, which is swept away.

It seems like even if there was no plan, or an anticipation of how high the water would get, there was time (even a few minutes) when those girls could have been moved or moved themselves to safety.

And because everyone was running around without a plan or a means of communication, 27 girls died.
agracer
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They had a plan based on "this is what we've always done", which has cause more trauma than just about anything else in life except for war. They just didn't prepare, at all, if that plan didn't work.

Planning is based on expectations of order,
Preparation is based on expectations of chaos.
dermdoc
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71 jock said:

dermdoc said:

Just curious if anyone defending Mystic and the Eastlands lost a child? Maybe I am different but I would have treaded a lot more lightly if I had not lost a loved one than the defenders of Mystic on this thread,

But y'all be y'all.

I think it's time you take a break from this thread or the vino if that's what you are gleaning from all of this.


I will apologize for anything you think I have posted that is false about Dick and Mystic if you will apologize for falsely accusing me of needing to put down the wine and that you think I should take a break. My family is much more familiar with Mystic than you might know. Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are drunk or should go away.
Thou shalt not bear false witness applies to us both my friend.
txags92
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dermdoc said:

txags92 said:

dermdoc said:

Anti-taxxer said:

dermdoc said:

Anti-taxxer said:

FM 949 said:

I hope you arent basing your "facts" on things posted in this thread by folks and making absolute statements in regards to what did or did not happen.

Like you are?

And this is what I don't get. I think Clarke and Evangeline have posted things that support what I alluded to at the start. I am criticized for not saying everything I knew at the start even after their posts. And to equate this topic to a coaching search seems weird to me.
And I was asked what did I expect when I posted on the thread titled as it was? Maybe not being called melodramatic. Maybe a little more empathy. Maybe a little grace.
To my knowledge, I have not attacked any posters' credibility on here like my credibility has been questioned.
And y'all are the ones who made it about me and my posts. I feel like I have been on trial.
This is not about me. It is not about any poster on here. It is about Mary Grace and all the other campers and counselors who perished. It is about a tragedy that I feel could have been fairly easily avoided with just a little foresight and preparation. I understand disagreeing with me. I do not understand some of the responses and how they were worded.

Gig 'em and God bless!

My comment wasn't directed at you!! You know that, right?? Or was your post in response to the one I quoted?

My post was directed at FM249(who never personally attacked me), Texags 92, and Jock 71. Your
posts are great. I do not think I was being melodramatic, was certainly not drunk, and do not need a break as suggested.

Derm, I am sorry if you felt attacked by what I said. The melodramatic accusation was over the line, given what you and your family have gone through. My only problem with what you were saying was that from the very first thread on this tragedy, people had talked about "the plan" that Dick and Glenn and others were following was to move campers out of the low lying cabins and leave them in the ones above the flood plain. Based on all of that information shared, firsthand or otherwise, I was assuming there actually was "a plan" somewhere, even if they didn't execute it and it was inadequate for the storm they experienced. The blurb previously posted from the counselor binder was originally claimed to be from a handout to parents when it was posted, so I took it as that. On this thread, you kept saying there was no plan and cited no claim about how you knew that other than vague statements about finding out during discovery. That was what I took issue with and nothing else. If you felt attacked by me in any other way, please accept my apology for that. I have no desire to pile any other burden onto your shoulders right now.

As you will have noticed, since Clarke and Evangeline clarified what the actual source of that blurb was, that it was the full extent of "the plan", and that even that little bit of "plan" was not followed as written, my tone has changed. I am truly shocked and horrified that there was not a much more significant emergency response plan in writing and covered with the counselors prior to bringing in campers. I am shocked that even with such a weak "plan" written down, they failed to do the basic part by giving each counselor or cabin a way to communicate with camp management 24/7.

While I understand how people can get complacent about what type of flooding to expect given typical storms and warnings, there was and is no excuse for not being better prepared than they were. The cost to outfit the camp with communications equipment would have probably been less than the fees paid by one camper for a summer session. I am actually amazed that it had not become a problem already in the past due to some other kind of emergency situation. As always, I share your desire for this to never happen again to anybody's child and hope that the hard lessons handed out by this flood are not forgotten or swept under the rug at places that did not have any loss of life this time around.


I have noticed you have changed. There were quite a few random shots taken at the people being critical of Mystic at the first of this thread also. And you were not worshipping at the feet of Camp Mystic either.
I am from Beaumont and my whole family and a lot of Mystic families are there. It has a huge history in Beaumont with our friends, family, etc.
none of the Mystic families in Beaumont have taken Mystic's side like what has been exhibited on this thread. And the most important thing to these Mystic folks (many are 3 generation families) the only thing talked about is the lives lost. Not Camp Mystic. Or the Eastlands. Or anything else.

As I said before early in the thread, I have no connection or allegiance to Mystic. My issue early in the thread was that I thought Dick had a plan that he was following and the events and size of the flood just overcame the plan. In that kind of case, I hate to see people villified for doing what they were supposed to do according to the plan and being overcome by events out of their control. With the knowledge that there was no formal plan and they were not equipped to follow what little planning they had mapped out, lets just say my feelings have changed a bit.

Given a preference, I would still like to see "a camp" come back to serve the population that loved Mystic for what it was before the floods if it can be done safely. I don't want the Eastlands, owning, operating, or profiting from it. But it just seems like a waste to sell off such a prime piece of property to some other multi-millionaire instead of finding a way to repurpose it for a camp that can carry on and honor the legacy of the girls who passed away. But ultimately that decision will fall to the families who lost daughters, and that is where it belongs.
StringerBell
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"Planning is based on expectations of order,
Preparation is based on expectations of chaos."

I've never heard this. I really like this. Thank you for sharing.

I intend to use it regularly from here on and give you no credit whatsoever for having introduced me to it and pretend like I've always just said this as a mantra.
Phat32
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StringerBell said:

"Planning is based on expectations of order,
Preparation is based on expectations of chaos."

I've never heard this. I really like this. Thank you for sharing.

I intend to use it regularly from here on and give you no credit whatsoever for having introduced me to it and pretend like I've always just said this as a mantra.


This is a wonderful quote, StringerBell. Thanks for sharing.
mcsatx
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About a month ago I submitted an open records request with FEMA to obtain the documentation that was submitted by Mystic during their floodplain "appeals" process. I finally received the documents and I am sharing them at the links below. These documents are all part of public record and have been redacted, so I don't see any issue with posting these documents for the purpose of transparency.
pxl.to/Mystic-Guadalupe-LOMA-part1
pxl.to/Mystic-Guadalupe-LOMA-part2
pxl.to/Mystic-Guadalupe-LOMA-part3
pxl.to/Mystic-Guadalupe-LOMA-part4
pxl.to/Mystic-Cypress-Lake-LOMA-part1
pxl.to/Mystic-Cypress-Lake-LOMA-part2

Here are my thoughts after reviewing the documents:
First, some history on the FEMA Flood Insurance Rate Maps (FIRM) for Kerr County. The original FIRM was issued in 1979 and was drawn on mylar paper at a scale of 1 inch = 2000 feet. The FIRM was based on a detailed study and hydraulic analysis of the South Fork. A detailed study was not done for smaller creeks (Cypress Creek/Edmunson Creek) but the analysis did account for flow from those smaller creeks into the South Fork. The design rainstorm event was based on USWB Tech Paper No. 40 with a 24 hour total rainfall of about 9.5 inches. The topography was based on USGS maps with a contour interval of 20 feet. The FIRM showed a 100-year flood elevation (BFE) of 1840' in the middle of the Mystic golf course and 1835' near the Mystic dam. The large scale size of the map made it difficult to determine which portions of the property were in the floodplain. The only accurate method for determining the floodplain boundary would have been a field survey of the ground elevations throughout the camp.

In 2011, the paper map was converted into a digital format. FEMA relied on the original hydraulic analysis and topographic data from 1979 and the digitization process carried over many inaccuracies from the original study. Those inaccuracies became highly visible by zooming in and viewing at much smaller scale than was originally intended. Many of the cabins and buildings throughout Mystic were shown to be in the floodplain even though the BFE was unchanged from 1979 to 2011.

In 2013, Mystic hired an engineer/surveyor to perform a field survey to determine which buildings were in the 100-year floodplain and to submit a Letter of Map Amendment (LOMA) to FEMA. A detailed hydraulic study was also performed for the portions of Cypress Creek and Edmonson Creek where there was no published BFE. The field survey determined that the Lowest Adjacent Grade (LAG) outside many of the buildings (39 total) was higher than the BFE. The survey also found several buildings (6 total) where the LAG was lower than BFE. Buildings that were already drawn outside the floodplain were not surveyed. On August 19, 2013, the LOMA was submitted to FEMA requesting 39 buildings be removed from the 100-year floodplain boundary. On October 15, 2013 FEMA approved the LOMA and officially removed a total of 40 buildings from the 100-year floodplain and/or floodway.

Only one LOMA application was submitted in 2013 but four different Letter of Map Change determination documents were issued and summarized below:
  • 13-06-4293A, LOMA, 24 buildings total
  • 14-06-0077A, LOMA-DEN (LOMA denial) 6 buildings (Mystic did not request these buildings to be removed from the floodplain but did include the survey data)
  • 14-06-0062A, LOMA-OAS (Out As Shown), 1 building
  • 14-06-0124A, LOMR-FW, 15 buildings total (specific type of LOMA for buildings mapped in the floodway)
The elevation certificates included with the LOMA application indicate the Highest and Lowest Adjacent Grade, Floor Elevation, and 100-year Base Flood Elevation.

For the cabins on the flats, LAG was about 2 to 6 feet higher than BFE and the floors of the cabins were about 3.5-7.5 feet higher than BFE (freeboard). The ground slopes down along the side of Bug House and corner closest to the river was slightly lower than BFE, so that cabin remained in the 100-year floodplain while the floor is 3.5 feet higher than BFE.

For the cabins on Senior Hill, LAG was about 7 to 22 feet higher than BFE and the floors were about 8.8 to 24 feet above BFE. For Hang Over, the LAG is measured where the wood framing is in contact with the hill below, so that cabin remains in the 100-year floodplain while the floor is 8.8 feet higher than BFE.

At Mystic Cypress Lake, FEMA had not yet performed a detailed study for Cypress Creek to determine BFE's. Prior to construction of the new camp, Mystic hired an engineer/surveyor to perform a field survey to determine the LAG at the proposed new building locations and to perform a detailed hydraulic study for Cypress Creek. The LOMA application was submitted 9/23/2019 and approved by FEMA on 11/12/2019. FEMA determined that all of the Cypress Lake buildings are outside the 500-year floodplain.


So what does that all mean? The LOMA at Mystic was not the result of a loophole or political favor or some purely administrative process. An extensive field survey was conducted and a detailed hydraulic study of Cypress/Edmonson Creek was performed to supplement FEMA's detailed study of the South Fork. Many of the buildings appear to be legitimately outside the floodplain. FEMA calls this an "inadvertent inclusion" which is common for older FIRM's.

For those that are still skeptical of the FEMA floodplain "appeals" process, two more recent FEMA studies provide additional validation that the Mystic buildings are actually outside the 100-year floodplain.

In 2016, FEMA (via global engineering company AECOM/Compass) performed a 1D Base Level Engineering study of the Upper Guadalupe watershed. The focus of the study was to more accurately model smaller creeks and streams (such as Cypress Creek and Edmunson Creek) and to incorporate more accurate LIDAR topography elevation data. This study shows a higher BFE throughout the watershed (about 2.5 feet higher than the current published BFE at Mystic) but the entire flats area is still shown outside the 100-year floodplain. The floodplain boundary from that model can be viewed on the FEMA estBFE Viewer here: https://webapps.usgs.gov/infrm/estbfe/ and the report can be viewed here: pxl.to/2016-FEMA-BLE-Report

In 2024, FEMA (via AECOM/Compass) performed a 2D Base Level Engineering study of the Upper Guadalupe watershed. The study incorporated increased rainfall amounts from NOAA Atlas 14 (11.7 inches for 24 hour storm, 19% increase compared to previous which was updated in 2018 partly in response to the Wimberley flood and Hurricane Harvey). The study also incorporates shorter duration/higher intensity storms. This study, which I think is preliminary and still being reviewed by FEMA, also indicates a higher BFE throughout the entire watershed (about 4.5 feet higher than the current published BFE at Mystic). Much of the flats area is still shown to be outside the 100-year floodplain. That report can be viewed here: pxl.to/2024-FEMA-BLE-Report

It is unclear why these newer studies have not yet been incorporated into the Kerr County FIRM yet. FEMA is required to review and/or update the current FIRM every 5 years. The last update to the FIS was in 2020, so maybe the FIRM will be updated soon.


A few other thoughts as it relates to the flood at Mystic. Most jurisdictions, including Kerr County, require that new buildings be elevated above 1 foot above the BFE. The 1 foot minimum freeboard height applies to residential, commercial, schools, etc. An additional foot of freeboard height is required for hospitals, police/fire stations, and other critical facilities. At Mystic, the smallest freeboard height is about 3.5 feet at Bug House. Therefore, the current cabins meet the code elevation requirements for critical facilities. This is likely why the cabins were referred to as being "constructed on high, safe locations."

Regarding Mystic's emergency plan for floods. They did have a plan. It wasn't a robust plan, but the plan involved sheltering in the place during a flood "unless told otherwise by the office". The "unless told otherwise" aspect of the plan on July 4 involved a phased evacuation of the cabins starting with Bug House closest to the river. This seems logical based on the freeboard heights of each cabin. The four cabins closest to Rec Hall have a freeboard height of about 6 to 7 feet. Rec Hall has a freeboard height of 7.5 feet. Absent an evacuation order from the county, it does seem reasonable to shelter in place inside the cabins.

According to the USGS high water marks, the flood was about 14 to 17 feet higher than the 100-year flood elevation and about 4 to 7 feet higher than the 500-year flood elevation at Mystic Guadalupe. At Mystic Cypress Lake, the flood was several feet less than the 100-year flood elevation.

All of the info referenced above can be seen in this interactive map which has the LOMA elevation info, USGS high water marks, and floodplain boundaries from the current FIRM, the 2016 BLE study, and the 2024 BLE study: arcg.is/T0y5z

I have written previously about the inadequacy of the timing and information included in the NWS flood warnings. A summary can be found here: https://pxl.to/Mystic-NWS-Flash-Flood-Warning-Analysis

But clearly based on the outcome of July 4, elevating 1 foot above BFE does not provide adequate life safety. The American Society of Civil Engineers has recognized this and in 2025 published updated recommendations to their Flood Resistant Design and Construction standard. For residential and commercial buildings, they now recommend that those buildings be elevated at or above the 500-year flood elevation. Elementary schools would be elevated above the 750-year flood, and hospitals/police/fire stations/critical facilities would be elevated above the 1000-year flood. The previous version of this document is incorporated by reference into the 2024 International Building Code, so these updated recommendations won't go into effect until the 2027 code cycle at the earliest. However, many local jurisdictions do not adopt the latest code immediately, so it could be even longer until these recommendations get widespread adoption.

If we truely want to prevent this tragedy from happening in the future, we need to have a full picture understanding of what happened in order to implement effective change. While better communication and planning may have helped, the primary issue that needs to be solved is how to be safe during a rapid flood that exceeds the 500-year flood elevation in a matter of a couple of hours. Arguing about LOMA appeals and what is the actual 100-year floodplain boundary doesn't matter for a flood that is 14-17 feet higher than the 100-year BFE.

While the current proposed legislation does contain some positive changes, many of the weaknesses that were exposed in the July 4 flooding are not adequately addressed in SB1 or HB1. For example, walkie talkies are not required in each cabin and the PA system is not required to have a redundant power source. And while cabins would no longer be allowed in the 100-year floodplain, they would still be allowed in the 500-year floodplain. Only the areas of camp within the 100-year floodplain would be required to evacuate when an NWS flood warning is issued. Based on what we have learned after the July 4 flood, it seems imperative that cabins in the 500-year floodplain also evacuate (and have a safe location above the 500-year flood to evacuate to).

You can read the current language of the bills here:
capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/892/billtext/html/SB00001E.htm
capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/892/billtext/html/HB00001E.htm
And an example of how the bill would impact Mystic/La Junta/HOH here: pxl.to/SB1-examples
dermdoc
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mcsatx said:

About a month ago I submitted an open records request with FEMA to obtain the documentation that was submitted by Mystic during their floodplain "appeals" process. I finally received the documents and I am sharing them at the links below. These documents are all part of public record and have been redacted, so I don't see any issue with posting these documents for the purpose of transparency.
pxl.to/Mystic-Guadalupe-LOMA-part1
pxl.to/Mystic-Guadalupe-LOMA-part2
pxl.to/Mystic-Guadalupe-LOMA-part3
pxl.to/Mystic-Guadalupe-LOMA-part4
pxl.to/Mystic-Cypress-Lake-LOMA-part1
pxl.to/Mystic-Cypress-Lake-LOMA-part2

Here are my thoughts after reviewing the documents:
First, some history on the FEMA Flood Insurance Rate Maps (FIRM) for Kerr County. The original FIRM was issued in 1979 and was drawn on mylar paper at a scale of 1 inch = 2000 feet. The FIRM was based on a detailed study and hydraulic analysis of the South Fork. A detailed study was not done for smaller creeks (Cypress Creek/Edmunson Creek) but the analysis did account for flow from those smaller creeks into the South Fork. The design rainstorm event was based on USWB Tech Paper No. 40 with a 24 hour total rainfall of about 9.5 inches. The topography was based on USGS maps with a contour interval of 20 feet. The FIRM showed a 100-year flood elevation (BFE) of 1840' in the middle of the Mystic golf course and 1835' near the Mystic dam. The large scale size of the map made it difficult to determine which portions of the property were in the floodplain. The only accurate method for determining the floodplain boundary would have been a field survey of the ground elevations throughout the camp.

In 2011, the paper map was converted into a digital format. FEMA relied on the original hydraulic analysis and topographic data from 1979 and the digitization process carried over many inaccuracies from the original study. Those inaccuracies became highly visible by zooming in and viewing at much smaller scale than was originally intended. Many of the cabins and buildings throughout Mystic were shown to be in the floodplain even though the BFE was unchanged from 1979 to 2011.

In 2013, Mystic hired an engineer/surveyor to perform a field survey to determine which buildings were in the 100-year floodplain and to submit a Letter of Map Amendment (LOMA) to FEMA. A detailed hydraulic study was also performed for the portions of Cypress Creek and Edmonson Creek where there was no published BFE. The field survey determined that the Lowest Adjacent Grade (LAG) outside many of the buildings (39 total) was higher than the BFE. The survey also found several buildings (6 total) where the LAG was lower than BFE. Buildings that were already drawn outside the floodplain were not surveyed. On August 19, 2013, the LOMA was submitted to FEMA requesting 39 buildings be removed from the 100-year floodplain boundary. On October 15, 2013 FEMA approved the LOMA and officially removed a total of 40 buildings from the 100-year floodplain and/or floodway.

Only one LOMA application was submitted in 2013 but four different Letter of Map Change determination documents were issued and summarized below:
  • 13-06-4293A, LOMA, 24 buildings total
  • 14-06-0077A, LOMA-DEN (LOMA denial) 6 buildings (Mystic did not request these buildings to be removed from the floodplain but did include the survey data)
  • 14-06-0062A, LOMA-OAS (Out As Shown), 1 building
  • 14-06-0124A, LOMR-FW, 15 buildings total (specific type of LOMA for buildings mapped in the floodway)
The elevation certificates included with the LOMA application indicate the Highest and Lowest Adjacent Grade, Floor Elevation, and 100-year Base Flood Elevation.

For the cabins on the flats, LAG was about 2 to 6 feet higher than BFE and the floors of the cabins were about 3.5-7.5 feet higher than BFE (freeboard). The ground slopes down along the side of Bug House and corner closest to the river was slightly lower than BFE, so that cabin remained in the 100-year floodplain while the floor is 3.5 feet higher than BFE.

For the cabins on Senior Hill, LAG was about 7 to 22 feet higher than BFE and the floors were about 8.8 to 24 feet above BFE. For Hang Over, the LAG is measured where the wood framing is in contact with the hill below, so that cabin remains in the 100-year floodplain while the floor is 8.8 feet higher than BFE.

At Mystic Cypress Lake, FEMA had not yet performed a detailed study for Cypress Creek to determine BFE's. Prior to construction of the new camp, Mystic hired an engineer/surveyor to perform a field survey to determine the LAG at the proposed new building locations and to perform a detailed hydraulic study for Cypress Creek. The LOMA application was submitted 9/23/2019 and approved by FEMA on 11/12/2019. FEMA determined that all of the Cypress Lake buildings are outside the 500-year floodplain.


So what does that all mean? The LOMA at Mystic was not the result of a loophole or political favor or some purely administrative process. An extensive field survey was conducted and a detailed hydraulic study of Cypress/Edmonson Creek was performed to supplement FEMA's detailed study of the South Fork. Many of the buildings appear to be legitimately outside the floodplain. FEMA calls this an "inadvertent inclusion" which is common for older FIRM's.

For those that are still skeptical of the FEMA floodplain "appeals" process, two more recent FEMA studies provide additional validation that the Mystic buildings are actually outside the 100-year floodplain.

In 2016, FEMA (via global engineering company AECOM/Compass) performed a 1D Base Level Engineering study of the Upper Guadalupe watershed. The focus of the study was to more accurately model smaller creeks and streams (such as Cypress Creek and Edmunson Creek) and to incorporate more accurate LIDAR topography elevation data. This study shows a higher BFE throughout the watershed (about 2.5 feet higher than the current published BFE at Mystic) but the entire flats area is still shown outside the 100-year floodplain. The floodplain boundary from that model can be viewed on the FEMA estBFE Viewer here: https://webapps.usgs.gov/infrm/estbfe/ and the report can be viewed here: pxl.to/2016-FEMA-BLE-Report

In 2024, FEMA (via AECOM/Compass) performed a 2D Base Level Engineering study of the Upper Guadalupe watershed. The study incorporated increased rainfall amounts from NOAA Atlas 14 (11.7 inches for 24 hour storm, 19% increase compared to previous which was updated in 2018 partly in response to the Wimberley flood and Hurricane Harvey). The study also incorporates shorter duration/higher intensity storms. This study, which I think is preliminary and still being reviewed by FEMA, also indicates a higher BFE throughout the entire watershed (about 4.5 feet higher than the current published BFE at Mystic). Much of the flats area is still shown to be outside the 100-year floodplain. That report can be viewed here: pxl.to/2024-FEMA-BLE-Report

It is unclear why these newer studies have not yet been incorporated into the Kerr County FIRM yet. FEMA is required to review and/or update the current FIRM every 5 years. The last update to the FIS was in 2020, so maybe the FIRM will be updated soon.


A few other thoughts as it relates to the flood at Mystic. Most jurisdictions, including Kerr County, require that new buildings be elevated above 1 foot above the BFE. The 1 foot minimum freeboard height applies to residential, commercial, schools, etc. An additional foot of freeboard height is required for hospitals, police/fire stations, and other critical facilities. At Mystic, the smallest freeboard height is about 3.5 feet at Bug House. Therefore, the current cabins meet the code elevation requirements for critical facilities. This is likely why the cabins were referred to as being "constructed on high, safe locations."

Regarding Mystic's emergency plan for floods. They did have a plan. It wasn't a robust plan, but the plan involved sheltering in the place during a flood "unless told otherwise by the office". The "unless told otherwise" aspect of the plan on July 4 involved a phased evacuation of the cabins starting with Bug House closest to the river. This seems logical based on the freeboard heights of each cabin. The four cabins closest to Rec Hall have a freeboard height of about 6 to 7 feet. Rec Hall has a freeboard height of 7.5 feet. Absent an evacuation order from the county, it does seem reasonable to shelter in place inside the cabins.

According to the USGS high water marks, the flood was about 14 to 17 feet higher than the 100-year flood elevation and about 4 to 7 feet higher than the 500-year flood elevation at Mystic Guadalupe. At Mystic Cypress Lake, the flood was several feet less than the 100-year flood elevation.

All of the info referenced above can be seen in this interactive map which has the LOMA elevation info, USGS high water marks, and floodplain boundaries from the current FIRM, the 2016 BLE study, and the 2024 BLE study: arcg.is/T0y5z

I have written previously about the inadequacy of the timing and information included in the NWS flood warnings. A summary can be found here: https://pxl.to/Mystic-NWS-Flash-Flood-Warning-Analysis

But clearly based on the outcome of July 4, elevating 1 foot above BFE does not provide adequate life safety. The American Society of Civil Engineers has recognized this and in 2025 published updated recommendations to their Flood Resistant Design and Construction standard. For residential and commercial buildings, they now recommend that those buildings be elevated at or above the 500-year flood elevation. Elementary schools would be elevated above the 750-year flood, and hospitals/police/fire stations/critical facilities would be elevated above the 1000-year flood. The previous version of this document is incorporated by reference into the 2024 International Building Code, so these updated recommendations won't go into effect until the 2027 code cycle at the earliest. However, many local jurisdictions do not adopt the latest code immediately, so it could be even longer until these recommendations get widespread adoption.

If we truely want to prevent this tragedy from happening in the future, we need to have a full picture understanding of what happened in order to implement effective change. While better communication and planning may have helped, the primary issue that needs to be solved is how to be safe during a rapid flood that exceeds the 500-year flood elevation in a matter of a couple of hours. Arguing about LOMA appeals and what is the actual 100-year floodplain boundary doesn't matter for a flood that is 14-17 feet higher than the 100-year BFE.

While the current proposed legislation does contain some positive changes, many of the weaknesses that were exposed in the July 4 flooding are not adequately addressed in SB1 or HB1. For example, walkie talkies are not required in each cabin and the PA system is not required to have a redundant power source. And while cabins would no longer be allowed in the 100-year floodplain, they would still be allowed in the 500-year floodplain. Only the areas of camp within the 100-year floodplain would be required to evacuate when an NWS flood warning is issued. Based on what we have learned after the July 4 flood, it seems imperative that cabins in the 500-year floodplain also evacuate (and have a safe location above the 500-year flood to evacuate to).

You can read the current language of the bills here:
capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/892/billtext/html/SB00001E.htm
capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/892/billtext/html/HB00001E.htm
And an example of how the bill would impact Mystic/La Junta/HOH here: pxl.to/SB1-examples

Thanks for the all the time and work. It seems this tragedy was due to an unprecedented event along with poor and inadequate preparation and planning.
Burdizzo
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Thank you for that thorough post on the technical information.
Txalli
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I hate to bug you with a question after you've already done so much thorough analysis and assessment (thank you!!!), but if you have the time…I would love an explanation of the difference between the turquoise and the yellow in the very last link that you provided (the one that shows how the new bill would affect property at Mystic and LaJunta). Is it the difference between the 2016 100-year flood plan and the one being proposed now in August, 2025?
mcsatx
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Txalli said:

I hate to bug you with a question after you've already done so much thorough analysis and assessment (thank you!!!), but if you have the time…I would love an explanation of the difference between the turquoise and the yellow in the very last link that you provided (the one that shows how the new bill would affect property at Mystic and LaJunta). Is it the difference between the 2016 100-year flood plan and the one being proposed now in August, 2025?

Turquoise region is the 100-year floodplain boundary on the current FIRM. Yellow region is the 100-year floodplain boundary from the 2016 FEMA Base Level Engineering Study, which hasn't been formally incorporated yet on the FIRM.
agracer
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StringerBell said:

"Planning is based on expectations of order,
Preparation is based on expectations of chaos."

I've never heard this. I really like this. Thank you for sharing.

I intend to use it regularly from here on and give you no credit whatsoever for having introduced me to it and pretend like I've always just said this as a mantra.

Username checks out.
agracer
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Phat32 said:

StringerBell said:

"Planning is based on expectations of order,
Preparation is based on expectations of chaos."

I've never heard this. I really like this. Thank you for sharing.

I intend to use it regularly from here on and give you no credit whatsoever for having introduced me to it and pretend like I've always just said this as a mantra.


This is a wonderful quote, StringerBell. Thanks for sharing.

uhm.....
dermdoc
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agracer said:

They had a plan based on "this is what we've always done", which has cause more trauma than just about anything else in life except for war. They just didn't prepare, at all, if that plan didn't work.

Planning is based on expectations of order,
Preparation is based on expectations of chaos.

That is a wonderful way to put it.
FM 949
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Appreciate the effort. Supports a lot of the things being discussed.
StringerBell
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Ur welcome pls stay tuned for more original kernels of wisdom from yours truly
agracer
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Thanks for posting this. Great information and kills the "they had no plan" narrative that seems to have taken hold and that Mystic did not do any due diligence on their cabins and possible flooding. They obviously did.

The problem, as I noted earlier, is there plan did not have any back up if things went wrong and a poor communication system (the PA system).
agracer
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aggiemike02
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excellent and useful content. thank you
dermdoc
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agracer said:

Thanks for posting this. Great information and kills the "they had no plan" narrative that seems to have taken hold and that Mystic did not do any due diligence on their cabins and possible flooding. They obviously did.

The problem, as I noted earlier, is there plan did not have any back up if things went wrong and a poor communication system (the PA system).

Seriously what is the plan? Other than stay in the cabins (which cost lives) and evacuating the lower cabins? There was no communication except word of mouth, the counselors were told nothing in the event of a flood except to stay put. So do y'all seriously consider that an actual plan of any sort? Did you read what Evangeline posted? Every camp I went to the counselors were privy to plans like what to do in case of a fire, etc.

And to go along with the data presented above, this is interesting. This is a time line of the flood. Every dot is 15 minutes. To me, it seems there was plenty of time to get everybody safe unless there was complete lack of communication and coordination.

fc2112
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dermdoc said:

agracer said:

Thanks for posting this. Great information and kills the "they had no plan" narrative that seems to have taken hold and that Mystic did not do any due diligence on their cabins and possible flooding. They obviously did.

The problem, as I noted earlier, is there plan did not have any back up if things went wrong and a poor communication system (the PA system).

Seriously what is the plan? Other than stay in the cabins (which cost lives) and evacuating the lower cabins? There was no communication except word of mouth, the counselors were told nothing in the event of a flood except to stay put. So do y'all seriously consider that an actual plan of any sort? Did you read what Evangeline posted?

And to go along with the data presented above, this is interesting. This is a time line of the flood. Every dot is 15 minutes. To me, it seems there was plenty of time to get everybody safe unless there was complete lack of communication and coordination.



Seriously, there was time for the kids to bear crawl the 300 feet to safety instead of staying in their cabins and drowning.
dermdoc
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fc2112 said:

dermdoc said:

agracer said:

Thanks for posting this. Great information and kills the "they had no plan" narrative that seems to have taken hold and that Mystic did not do any due diligence on their cabins and possible flooding. They obviously did.

The problem, as I noted earlier, is there plan did not have any back up if things went wrong and a poor communication system (the PA system).

Seriously what is the plan? Other than stay in the cabins (which cost lives) and evacuating the lower cabins? There was no communication except word of mouth, the counselors were told nothing in the event of a flood except to stay put. So do y'all seriously consider that an actual plan of any sort? Did you read what Evangeline posted?

And to go along with the data presented above, this is interesting. This is a time line of the flood. Every dot is 15 minutes. To me, it seems there was plenty of time to get everybody safe unless there was complete lack of communication and coordination.



Seriously, there was time for the kids to bear crawl the 300 feet to safety instead of staying in their cabins and drowning.

They were told to stay in their cabins. It is unconscionable. The supposed plan seems to have done more harm than good. From what I have heard, the counselors who disregarded the plan, saved their kids' lives. And I am sober. And despite being told to "take a break", I will not.
dermdoc
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mcsatx said:

From Senate Bill 1:

Section 762.001 defines a floodplain as "any area within a 100-year floodplain identified by the Federal Emergency Management Agency"

Section 141.0052 says "The department may not issue or renew a license under this chapter to a youth camp that operates one or more cabins located in a floodplain."

At Mystic, the ground outside Twins and Bubble Inn cabins is about 6 feet above the 100-year flood elevation.

In the Letter of Map Amendment, FEMA said:
"we have determined that the structure(s) on the property(ies) is/are not located in the NFIP regulatory floodway or the SFHA, an area inundated by the flood having a 1-percent chance of being equaled or exceeded in any given year (base flood). This document revises the effective NFIP map to remove the subject property from the NFIP regulatory floodway and the SFHA located on the effective NFIP map"

So technically, SB1 as it is currently written would still allow Bubble Inn and Twins be used as cabins.

Section 762.002 says "A campground operator shall… develop an emergency plan for: evacuating on issuance of a flash flood warning campground occupants who are at a campground area within a floodplain"

This bill would not require evacuation for campers in the 500-year floodplain. At Mystic, the flood was about 15 feet above the current published 100-year flood elevation and about 5 feet above the 500-year flood elevation. The bill as it is currently written would not provide any additional protection for extreme weather events like the 500+ year flood that occurred at Mystic.

And this assessment bothers me. Seems like the bills are not adequate to prevent this. Although with the time line, there would have been plenty of time even without new regulations.
 
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