then you can work on what "some" means next.

This is not in parent notes. This is in every counselor handbook we were given. This is the extent of the training we received. No drills. No other info.

Were you provided a functioning walkie-talkie and training on how to use it?

txags92 said:

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Don't jump to conclusions. Somebody posted that as part of a blurb in a handout for parents. Now it is being asserted that it was all they had for a plan. I doubt that to be the case, but nobody to my knowledge has posted the actual plan, if anybody outside the camp had access to it at all.

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Quote:

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This is not in parent notes. This is in every counselor handbook we were given. This is the extent of the training we received. No drills. No other info.

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This was the "plan".

No. We did not have any communication devices.

I went back and looked in the binder and the instructions were to send a runner to the infirmary or go to Harrison hall to call the office, if needed.

It says Harrison hall for flats counselors and Rifle range for the hill.

fc2112 said:

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Heartbreaking thing is - there is a hill just to the southeast of the cabins that flooded.

A flood warning fog horn, tied into the emergency alert system, could have gotten all the girls out of their cabins and up that hill within about 10 minutes. The whole emergency setup might have cost $1,000.

They could have drilled for that their first day at camp.

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It's actually inconceivable that nobody running this camp for that many years ever thought to implement something like this. Even a hand held air horn, that cost ten dollars could have worked.

The extremely boomer mentality permeating the first couple pages of "oh well what can you do" is just laughably ancient. It's not the reason we are living in the safest period in human history and lawsuits have a lot to do with that.

evangeline said:

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No. We did not have any communication devices.

I went back and looked in the binder and the instructions were to send a runner to the infirmary or go to Harrison hall to call the office, if needed.

It says Harrison hall for flats counselors and Rifle range for the hill.

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Thank you for speaking the truth. And for clarifying that the handout was given to the counselors and not the family.

Maybe they will believe you because they sure do not believe me or my nephew.

evangeline said:

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No. We did not have any communication devices.

I went back and looked in the binder and the instructions were to send a runner to the infirmary or go to Harrison hall to call the office, if needed.

It says Harrison hall for flats counselors and Rifle range for the hill.

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Thank you for the insight, which completely lines up with the facts of how this night played out.

Big picture, it seems that Dick Eastland BS'd a lot of people about his emergency plan, including himself. I mean, he has parents out here still buying that BS. But to put that woefully inadequate plan on a page while at the same time not even following it, that is going to be a major, major problem when it comes to these lawsuits. No means of communication. At all. Inexcusable.

evangeline said:

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This is not in parent notes. This is in every counselor handbook we were given. This is the extent of the training we received. No drills. No other info.

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Thank you for clarifying that. The first time it was posted (don't remember if it was on this thread or elsewhere), it was claimed it was a manual given to parents. That is pretty bad if that is truly all they had and didn't even follow that.

Of course. I felt the need to clarify and let others know this is truly all we had like you are saying.

And we absolutely believed the cabins were safe.

dermdoc said:

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evangeline said:

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No. We did not have any communication devices.

I went back and looked in the binder and the instructions were to send a runner to the infirmary or go to Harrison hall to call the office, if needed.

It says Harrison hall for flats counselors and Rifle range for the hill.

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Thank you for speaking the truth. And for clarifying that the handout was given to the counselors and not the family.

Maybe they will believe you because they sure do not believe me or my nephew.

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Nobody said they didn't believe you or your nephew Derm. Your melodramatic responses are not helpful. I said making statements like "if you knew what I just saw/heard, you would agree with me" is a useless statement because we don't know what you just saw/heard and you aren't telling us what it was or who you saw/heard it from. That doesn't imply that I don't believe you, it implies that I have no idea what I would even be agreeing with if I took your statement at face value. Clarke came in and gave good info and was thanked for it.

It is no different from people during coaching searches saying "Wow! I just heard a name from my source that is really exciting. Trust me, you are going to love it!" Without knowing who the person is, what their source is, or what name they heard, are you going to be excited? Or are you going to be annoyed at them for playing the "I know more than you and I am not going to tell you, but you should trust me anyway" game?

txags92 said:

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dermdoc said:

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evangeline said:

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No. We did not have any communication devices.

I went back and looked in the binder and the instructions were to send a runner to the infirmary or go to Harrison hall to call the office, if needed.

It says Harrison hall for flats counselors and Rifle range for the hill.

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Thank you for speaking the truth. And for clarifying that the handout was given to the counselors and not the family.

Maybe they will believe you because they sure do not believe me or my nephew.

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Nobody said they didn't believe you or your nephew Derm. Your melodramatic responses are not helpful. I said making statements like "if you knew what I just saw/heard, you would agree with me" is a useless statement because we don't know what you just saw/heard and you aren't telling us what it was or who you saw/heard it from. That doesn't imply that I don't believe you, it implies that I have no idea what I would even be agreeing with if I took your statement at face value. Clarke came in and gave good info and was thanked for it.

It is no different from people during coaching searches saying "Wow! I just heard a name from my source that is really exciting. Trust me, you are going to love it!" Without knowing who the person is, what their source is, or what name they heard, are you going to be excited? Or are you going to be annoyed at them for playing the "I know more than you and I am not going to tell you, but you should trust me anyway" game?

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The more words generally the more drama. Fascinating. If telling the truth about girls that were killed by negligence and complacency is melodramatic, then call me melodramatic. And people who know me would chortle at me being called dramatic. Maybe I am evolving.
BTHO UTSA!

I tried to post the other emergency page, but it won't let me. It's not much more than this - where fire extinguishers are, where to go to call for help, there are instructions of where to go in case of fire.

evangeline said:

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Of course. I felt the need to clarify and let others know this is truly all we had like you are saying.

And we absolutely believed the cabins were safe.

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I think that is going to be the root cause of the lack of a plan. Everybody thought the cabins were safe. Or at least the people managing the camp did and spread that belief to the counselors working under them. If Dick was warned that they were not and ignored the warnings, that is incredibly tragic.

evangeline said:

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I tried to post the other emergency page, but it won't let me. It's not much more than this - where fire extinguishers are, where to go to call for help, there are instructions of where to go in case of fire.

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I am in a business where we routinely have multiple plans for a given project targeting emergency response, communications, safety, health, and accident prevention that each reach into hundreds of pages. I am really quite shocked that large facilities like this housing kids in residence for long periods of time were not already required by law to have much more detailed plans than that for potential emergencies.

The real heroes that night were the teenaged counselors who looked at the situation on the ground and said "screw the plan" and took their girls up the hill. They saved a lot of lives by disobeying the "plan".

txags92 said:

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evangeline said:

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I tried to post the other emergency page, but it won't let me. It's not much more than this - where fire extinguishers are, where to go to call for help, there are instructions of where to go in case of fire.

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I am in a business where we routinely have multiple plans for a given project targeting emergency response, communications, safety, health, and accident prevention that each reach into hundreds of pages. I am really quite shocked that large facilities like this housing kids in residence for long periods of time were not already required by law to have much more detailed plans than that for potential emergencies.

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We have been telling you that for pages on this thread. You just didn't believe us. Which is fine.

txags92 said:

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evangeline said:

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Of course. I felt the need to clarify and let others know this is truly all we had like you are saying.

And we absolutely believed the cabins were safe.

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I think that is going to be the root cause of the lack of a plan. Everybody thought the cabins were safe. Or at least the people managing the camp did and spread that belief to the counselors working under them. If Dick was warned that they were not and ignored the warnings, that is incredibly tragic.

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Agree with your last sentence. And sorry but this thread brings back my anger.
Will take another break.

evangeline said:

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I tried to post the other emergency page, but it won't let me. It's not much more than this - where fire extinguishers are, where to go to call for help, there are instructions of where to go in case of fire.

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Do y'all not have access to your cell phones in the cabins? Or is there just not enough signal?

Cell phones were barely a thing when I worked there.

The frustration is understandable. Even after 27 deaths, the camp is being defended with a "there was nothing that could be done" defense.

Those that walked the 300 feet up the hill and survived beg to differ.

No, a 150 foot tall wall of water did not careen down the canyon. The river rose about 26 feet over about an hour. About a foot every three minutes. It could have been out walked.

No cell phones. We turned them in at the office - we picked them up for nights/days off and then turned them back in. The signal was terrible and typically they didn't work until a couple miles outside of camp or maybe sky high.

Hit my post limit: but did copy/paste this

Copy/paste from medical advice page

EMERGENCY INSTRUCTIONS
Stay calm - don't overreact!
2. Injuries a.
Small injuries -- use first aid kits (cuts, scratches, bumps, bruises, muscle aches)
Big injuries -- get a nurse ASAP!
1)
FLATS - send a runner to the infirmary or call from Harrison Hall, t commissary or the office, or CALL 257.
SR. HILL - call the nurses and the office from the rifle range
+
Floods
Stay in your cabins!!
You will be informed of proper procedures over the P.A. system.
When in doubt - get help!

Fires
FLATS - Go to the flagpole
SR. HILL - Go to the golf box
Do not panic - counselors make sure everyone gets out of the building safely!
Important Fire extinguisher locations:
3 in the office, 2 in Harrison Hall, 1 at Flats water fountain (between Hangout & Tumble), 1 in Byrd House, 1 at the infirmary, 1 at the Sr. Hill water fountain (behind Idiot's)

fc2112 said:

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The frustration is understandable. Even after 27 deaths, the camp is being defended with a "there was nothing that could be done" defense.

Those that walked the 300 feet up the hill and survived beg to differ.

No, a 150 foot tall wall of water did not careen down the canyon. The river rose about 26 feet over about an hour. About a foot every three minutes. It could have been out walked.

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Which a means of communication could have easily facilitated. Instead, 3 guys are running around shouting bad instructions to some and no instructions to others

Cell service sounds similar to Bear Creek Scout Camp. The only place we could get a signal was in the leader/parent parking lot on top of the ridge.

DannyDuberstein said:

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fc2112 said:

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The frustration is understandable. Even after 27 deaths, the camp is being defended with a "there was nothing that could be done" defense.

Those that walked the 300 feet up the hill and survived beg to differ.

No, a 150 foot tall wall of water did not careen down the canyon. The river rose about 26 feet over about an hour. About a foot every three minutes. It could have been out walked.

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Which a means of communication could have easily facilitated. Instead, 3 guys are running around shouting bad instructions to some and no instructions to others

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My opinion on what they should have done:

All of the cabins on the flats should have had a trail cut behind them up the hill. Emergency plan for flooding should have been, gather your campers, single file it up the hill making sure all are accounted for, and then gather at the sign.

Slicer97 said:

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DannyDuberstein said:

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fc2112 said:

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The frustration is understandable. Even after 27 deaths, the camp is being defended with a "there was nothing that could be done" defense.

Those that walked the 300 feet up the hill and survived beg to differ.

No, a 150 foot tall wall of water did not careen down the canyon. The river rose about 26 feet over about an hour. About a foot every three minutes. It could have been out walked.

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Which a means of communication could have easily facilitated. Instead, 3 guys are running around shouting bad instructions to some and no instructions to others

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My opinion on what they should have done:

All of the cabins on the flats should have had a trail cut behind them up the hill. Emergency plan for flooding should have been, gather your campers, single file it up the hill making sure all are accounted for, and then gather at the sign.

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That sounds great, but for the number of times you would do that in the middle of storms that ultimately didn't engulf the cabins, you would be exposing them to pounding rain, lightning, potentially hail, slips/trips/falls, etc. all to get to somewhere with no overhead shelter or walls to protect them from wind and flying debris in severe storms. The evacuation has its own dangers and doing it many times when it is not needed would put a lot of campers at risk. Rather than planning for how to evacuate in the middle of a storm when a flood is already happening, evacuate before the storms arrive when the Flood Watch goes out and instead hold a slumber party on the floor of one of the large buildings on high ground for the campers from the low lying cabins.

fc2112 said:

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The real heroes that night were the teenaged counselors who looked at the situation on the ground and said "screw the plan" and took their girls up the hill. They saved a lot of lives by disobeying the "plan".

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One of the most heartbreaking moments of testimony was from Matthew Childress (Chloe Childress' dad) who said he taught her to follow the rules and authority, and doing so that night cost her her life.

Anti-taxxer said:

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fc2112 said:

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The real heroes that night were the teenaged counselors who looked at the situation on the ground and said "screw the plan" and took their girls up the hill. They saved a lot of lives by disobeying the "plan".

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One of the most heartbreaking moments of testimony was from Matthew Childress (Chloe Childress' dad) who said he taught her to follow the rules and authority, and doing so that night cost her her life.

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Know the family well. Great people.

txags92 said:

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evangeline said:

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I tried to post the other emergency page, but it won't let me. It's not much more than this - where fire extinguishers are, where to go to call for help, there are instructions of where to go in case of fire.

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I am in a business where we routinely have multiple plans for a given project targeting emergency response, communications, safety, health, and accident prevention that each reach into hundreds of pages. I am really quite shocked that large facilities like this housing kids in residence for long periods of time were not already required by law to have much more detailed plans than that for potential emergencies.

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Because the cabins were considered safe due to being feet out of the 100 yr floodplain.

Floods aren't the only emergency. To have a teenager or two with young kids in cabins and no form of electronic comms whatsoever is nuts. The plan was literally pray that those who surveyed potential flood scenarios were right and that a 0.2 to 1.0% event never happens (100 and 500 year are a poor way to describe risk and can result in rubes thinking they are safer than they are). Whether officially in the 100 year or not, seems pretty clear they were at least in the ballpark of 1% risk if not more.

I agree. We can certainly debate why the camp hasn't utilized modern technology.

FM 949 said:

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txags92 said:

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evangeline said:

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I tried to post the other emergency page, but it won't let me. It's not much more than this - where fire extinguishers are, where to go to call for help, there are instructions of where to go in case of fire.

---

I am in a business where we routinely have multiple plans for a given project targeting emergency response, communications, safety, health, and accident prevention that each reach into hundreds of pages. I am really quite shocked that large facilities like this housing kids in residence for long periods of time were not already required by law to have much more detailed plans than that for potential emergencies.

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Because the cabins were considered safe due to being feet out of the 100 yr floodplain.

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Yeah, I was talking about way more than just flooding. If I were looking at this like one of our projects, there would be discussions for floods, fires, tornadoes, medical emergencies, missing child events, active shooter lockdowns, loss of water supply, etc. It would have a map and contact info for local emergency services providers, routes to urgent clinics and hospital ER, key personnel for the camp with contact info, etc. It would take maybe a couple of weeks to prepare with interviews with camp personnel and local EMS. It would include how communication will occur in the absence of spotty cell service (ie radios). These are really pretty basic protocols that become particularly important when the head guy is not there to give directions. You need a copy of the plan in every cabin and office and anybody needs to be able to pick up the plan, flip to the tab for their emergency, and see what they are supposed to do and who they are supposed to contact.

I mean, the 2way walkie talkie was invented in the 1930s and WWII led to it becoming widely used. So I guess we can debate why they weren't actually using 80 year old "modern" technology that they state they use in their emergency manual. But pretty horrific negligence is how I would describe it

It seems like either (a) this was the plan and it was wildly inadequate; or (b) they had some other elaborate plan, but it wasn't followed or not sufficient!

"Run and get Dick or his son or the security guy" was the true extent of their emergency plan for 700 campers. That's basically what's on the page once you exclude the fact they had no walkie talkies