That's fair.

FM 949 said:

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That's fair.

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May I ask why you are so defensive of Mystic?

Because I feel that in the case of an extreme flood that vastly exceeded regulatory floodplains (a once in a lifetime type event)it's not exactly fair to hammer away unabated at Mystic and Dick Eastland after the fact. As I mentioned, you put this type of flood event in Houston, and the casualty numbers would have been huge.

Sometimes horrific things happen and I am truly sorry that your family has personally experienced this tragedy. I am sorry any family has to deal with this.

But you have to realize that by posting what you posted over the last few days, the tone in which you posted, and your responses, you were going to get some reaction from Mystic family folks.

Should they have had a plan? And do you think Mystic did all they could to protect their campers?

Didn't we already do this a few pages back? My response then was how far do you take that plan. Is it for a 50 yr flood, a 100 yr flood, a 200 yr flood? A plan goes out the window when it is exceeded by Mother Nature. What happens if some unimaginable event sends water over the hill? What then? Is it still someone's fault then? Or at that point, is it so preposterous that it's an Act of God?

And since you added "And do you think Mystic did all they could to protect their campers?"

I think they did what they felt was reasonable before the event and met the normal standard of care in the industry. We can agree after the fact, that it wasn't enough for this event.

The man had 700 kids in his care and no functional plan to deal with a significant emergency of any sort. He couldn't execute what little he put on a page. No walkie talkies. No training. Nothing other than running around. Chance of flood was at least close to 1%. Those are the facts. To keep pretending this was unforeseeable is obtuse as it gets.

To put something on page that he then did not actually do tells me he absolutely knew he should and could do more. He knows what was reasonable. And chose not to do it.

If you say so.

It's not what I say. It's what his "plan" says vs what his counselors were provided. He didn't do it.

I hope you arent basing your "facts" on things posted in this thread by folks and making absolute statements in regards to what did or did not happen.

FM 949 said:

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I hope you arent basing your "facts" on things posted in this thread by folks and making absolute statements in regards to what did or did not happen.

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I hope you aren't basing your "facts" on some bull**** Dick fed you. Because that is absolutely what I see.

The accounts of what happened that night line up with no plan other than 3 guys running around. Accounts from survivors. Accounts from past counselors. Accounts in news reports. Accounts on this site.

Let's start with this. Let's talk facts:
1) do you think that binder is a lie? Yes or no?
2) do you believe there actually were walkie talkies? Yes or no?

I have never spoken to Dick Eastland about flood plans. Outside of seeing the man in passing when dropping off and picking up my daughter, I have had limited interaction with the man personally.

I had no need to speak to him about flood plans prior to July 4.

Normal floodwaters would be treacherous for 7-13 year old girls, so I partially understand the "stay in your cabins" portion of the plan. But there's no escalatory steps in response, no ability to communicate, etc.

The minimum standard should have been to prepare for the historic crest.

At first, the stories of Dick driving with the truck seemed much more heroic until I realized that was the entirety of any evacuation plan. There was no scale to it (so he just drives back and forth to each cabin?), and no ability for the counselors to distribute any risk management. And the line about "all cabins are constructed on high, safe locations" is odd in an evacuation plan.

Look - it's also just a highly sensitive, awful situation. There are folks on here and friends of all of ours who lost kids in the most nightmarish way possible. I do think that that can be true AND we can discuss ways to prevent this from ever happening again. They are not mutually exclusive.

Really amazed by the Heaven's 27 parents taking action to do so in the midst of what has to be one of the hardest things anyone can go through. They took action immediately.

Two questions for you…

A) have you looked at the FEMA maps?
B) do you know the difference between a floodway and a flood plain?

I ask this knowing fully the LOMA placed all of these cabins above the 100 yr flood elevation.

DannyDuberstein said:

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It wouldn't have been too late with each counselor trained on an evac plan to higher ground and an actual means of communication. The one counselor who made a judgment call saved a cabin.

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On that note, I don't know if this has been posted, but here it is.

Regardless of all the rest of the chatter on this thread, I hope both of my daughters grow up to be Ainsleys when they are 19 or 20.

FM 949 said:

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I hope you arent basing your "facts" on things posted in this thread by folks and making absolute statements in regards to what did or did not happen.

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Like you are?

Anti-taxxer said:

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FM 949 said:

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I hope you arent basing your "facts" on things posted in this thread by folks and making absolute statements in regards to what did or did not happen.

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Like you are?

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And this is what I don't get. I think Clarke and Evangeline have posted things that support what I alluded to at the start. I am criticized for not saying everything I knew at the start even after their posts. And to equate this topic to a coaching search seems weird to me.
And I was asked what did I expect when I posted on the thread titled as it was? Maybe not being called melodramatic. Maybe a little more empathy. Maybe a little grace.
To my knowledge, I have not attacked any posters' credibility on here like my credibility has been questioned.
And y'all are the ones who made it about me and my posts. I feel like I have been on trial.
This is not about me. It is not about any poster on here. It is about Mary Grace and all the other campers and counselors who perished. It is about a tragedy that I feel could have been fairly easily avoided with just a little foresight and preparation. I understand disagreeing with me. I do not understand some of the responses and how they were worded.

Gig 'em and God bless!

I hate to use this term - but it's the only term that fits - I've come to the conclusion that, for many, Camp Mystic was an almost cult like experience. No matter what evidence is produced, in their minds, the camp must survive above all else.

No matter how many lives were lost, the camp - must - survive.

Ergo - argument is pointless. They will always cling to "act of God" or "100 year flood plain" or the ever present "no one could have done anything" -when, in fact, turning to the southeast and walking 300 feet would have saved many of those lives.

The fact is, as I said earlier, this camp will never open because the land will have to be sold to settle all the claims. So all the wailing and gnashing of teeth - blaming of lawyers - claims of greed - none of it will matter. Camp Mystic will never open again.

fc2112 said:

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I hate to use this term - but it's the only term that fits - I've come to the conclusion that, for many, Camp Mystic was an almost cult like experience. No matter what evidence is produced, in their minds, the camp must survive above all else.

No matter how many lives were lost, the camp - must - survive.

Ergo - argument is pointless. They will always cling to "act of God" or "100 year flood plain" or the ever present "no one could have done anything" -when, in fact, turning to the southeast and walking 300 feet would have saved many of those lives.

The fact is, as I said earlier, this camp will never open because the land will have to be sold to settle all the claims. So all the wailing and gnashing of teeth - blaming of lawyers - claims of greed - none of it will matter. Camp Mystic will never open again.

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And that explains my post that I was criticized for that the camp is more important to some than the lives of these little girls. And I was accused of being drunk and I needed a break.

71 jock said:

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dermdoc said:

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Just curious if anyone defending Mystic and the Eastlands lost a child? Maybe I am different but I would have treaded a lot more lightly if I had not lost a loved one than the defenders of Mystic on this thread,

But y'all be y'all.

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I think it's time you take a break from this thread or the vino if that's what you are gleaning from all of this.

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I stand by what I posted. And I find it ironic that I am called out for illogical assumptions and not the Camp Mystic defenders. Maybe I need to get drunk.

BTHO UTSA!

fc2112 said:

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I hate to use this term - but it's the only term that fits - I've come to the conclusion that, for many, Camp Mystic was an almost cult like experience. No matter what evidence is produced, in their minds, the camp must survive above all else.

No matter how many lives were lost, the camp - must - survive.

Ergo - argument is pointless. They will always cling to "act of God" or "100 year flood plain" or the ever present "no one could have done anything" -when, in fact, turning to the southeast and walking 300 feet would have saved many of those lives.

The fact is, as I said earlier, this camp will never open because the land will have to be sold to settle all the claims. So all the wailing and gnashing of teeth - blaming of lawyers - claims of greed - none of it will matter. Camp Mystic will never open again.

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It is a borderline cult. People were rushing to defend the camp before this tragedy was even in full view. I've learned that as long as youve provided influential people a fun Christian experience, then you simply can't be negligent.

I've also learned that a whole bunch of people would gladly accept 1%, or even .2% of tragedies because it's very rare. Thankfully our commercial airlines aren't allowed that much leeway. Planes crashes are exceedingly rare. Statistically more rare than this flood. But when it tragically happens families sue. That's because when people trust you with their lives, a standard of care is far greater than "well, we gave it the college try"

DannyDuberstein said:

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Yes, you were making some real progress pretending that binder might be a lie and that counselors possibly had communication devices even though every fact to come out of this event makes it clear they did not. Sorry to interrupt.

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Sir, we can disagree on things and both not realize the tone of our posts, but I never said the binder was a lie or that the counselors had communication devices.

To the person posting the youtube link. Thank you. I have not seen that and will make time to watch.

My posts have centered on 100 yr floodplain and that risk because that's where the regulations are and it's an industry I know.

FM 949 said:

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DannyDuberstein said:

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Yes, you were making some real progress pretending that binder might be a lie and that counselors possibly had communication devices even though every fact to come out of this event makes it clear they did not. Sorry to interrupt.

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Sir, we can disagree on things and both not realize the tone of our posts, but I never said the binder was a lie or that the counselors had communication devices.

To the person posting the youtube link. Thank you. I have not seen that and will make time to watch.

My posts have centered on 100 yr floodplain and that risk because that's where the regulations are and it's an industry I know.

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With all due respect, your posts have certainly not centered on the lives lost. And that to me is the most important thing. And I am sober.

What made camp Mystic great is probably what is going to cause its demise. Camping has risk, the girls benefited and had personal growth being on their own. Developing life long relationships without alot of adult oversite.

Kozmozag said:

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What made camp Mystic great is probably what is going to cause its demise. Camping has risk, the girls benefited and had personal growth being on their own. Developing life long relationships without alot of adult oversite.

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Camping isn't supposed to be without adult oversight. Camp's routinely advertise how many counselors they have per child, because no parent in their right mind would pay somebody else to let their kids run free with very little adult oversight

a camp directed towards little girls should not have high risk. there are reasonable things that can be done to mitigate those risks.

these kids werent out camping in tents. they were in cabins with structured and supervised activities.

saying "well there's risk involved they should have known" is nonsense, respectfully.

StringerBell said:

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a camp directed towards little girls should not have high risk. there are reasonable things that can be done to mitigate those risks.

these kids werent out camping in tents. they were in cabins with structured and supervised activities.

saying "well there's risk involved they should have known" is nonsense, respectfully.

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This. I mean, there's risk involved getting out of bed in the morning. It's a question of the level of risk. Not moving little girls to a safer location during a flood warning in an area with a history of catastrophic floods seems like an unreasonable amount of risk to take with innocent lives.

dermdoc said:

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Anti-taxxer said:

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FM 949 said:

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I hope you arent basing your "facts" on things posted in this thread by folks and making absolute statements in regards to what did or did not happen.

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Like you are?

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And this is what I don't get. I think Clarke and Evangeline have posted things that support what I alluded to at the start. I am criticized for not saying everything I knew at the start even after their posts. And to equate this topic to a coaching search seems weird to me.
And I was asked what did I expect when I posted on the thread titled as it was? Maybe not being called melodramatic. Maybe a little more empathy. Maybe a little grace.
To my knowledge, I have not attacked any posters' credibility on here like my credibility has been questioned.
And y'all are the ones who made it about me and my posts. I feel like I have been on trial.
This is not about me. It is not about any poster on here. It is about Mary Grace and all the other campers and counselors who perished. It is about a tragedy that I feel could have been fairly easily avoided with just a little foresight and preparation. I understand disagreeing with me. I do not understand some of the responses and how they were worded.

Gig 'em and God bless!

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derm, I understand your point of view. I have not experienced loss of life in the same manner but I have experienced the effects of heavy rain and sudden flooding on the Guadalupe. I experienced them first hand in 1998. The sheer volume and suddenness of the rise in water level cannot be comprehended without witness.

Where I struggle with regards to mystic and what they could have done different or better etc imo ignores the event as a whole. Zoom out a bit. The impacts of the flash flooding were felt to a similar magnitude 20-30-50 miles down river. To say mystic was negligent either discounts the other lives lost or it poses an argument that everyone involved was equally negligent. Owners of property, agencies who grant permits, departments who audit plans, etc.

Ragoo said:

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dermdoc said:

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Anti-taxxer said:

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FM 949 said:

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I hope you arent basing your "facts" on things posted in this thread by folks and making absolute statements in regards to what did or did not happen.

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Like you are?

---

And this is what I don't get. I think Clarke and Evangeline have posted things that support what I alluded to at the start. I am criticized for not saying everything I knew at the start even after their posts. And to equate this topic to a coaching search seems weird to me.
And I was asked what did I expect when I posted on the thread titled as it was? Maybe not being called melodramatic. Maybe a little more empathy. Maybe a little grace.
To my knowledge, I have not attacked any posters' credibility on here like my credibility has been questioned.
And y'all are the ones who made it about me and my posts. I feel like I have been on trial.
This is not about me. It is not about any poster on here. It is about Mary Grace and all the other campers and counselors who perished. It is about a tragedy that I feel could have been fairly easily avoided with just a little foresight and preparation. I understand disagreeing with me. I do not understand some of the responses and how they were worded.

Gig 'em and God bless!

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derm, I understand your point of view. I have not experienced loss of life in the same manner but I have experienced the effects of heavy rain and sudden flooding on the Guadalupe. I experienced them first hand in 1998. The sheer volume and suddenness of the rise in water level cannot be comprehended without witness.

Where I struggle with regards to mystic and what they could have done different or better etc imo ignores the event as a whole. Zoom out a bit. The impacts of the flash flooding were felt to a similar magnitude 20-30-50 miles down river. To say mystic was negligent either discounts the other lives lost or it poses an argument that everyone involved was equally negligent. Owners of property, agencies who grant permits, departments who audit plans, etc.

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Is there any proof Mystic had a plan? Or that they were ever audited?
What I think you are saying is because of the magnitude of the flood nothing would have made any difference. I totally disagree. Counselors had time to ask Dick and his son 3 times about the water rising. The counselors who obeyed those orders, like Chloe Childress, died. The ones who disobeyed orders saved their kids.
There are timelines that prove there was time to beat the waters if there had been a plan and an evacuation order.
I totally disagree that nothing could have changed the outcome.

Slicer97 said:

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StringerBell said:

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a camp directed towards little girls should not have high risk. there are reasonable things that can be done to mitigate those risks.

these kids werent out camping in tents. they were in cabins with structured and supervised activities.

saying "well there's risk involved they should have known" is nonsense, respectfully.

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This. I mean, there's risk involved getting out of bed in the morning. It's a question of the level of risk. Not moving little girls to a safer location during a flood warning in an area with a history of catastrophic floods seems like an unreasonable amount of risk to take with innocent lives.

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Had there been a history of catastrophic floods there? I thought those cabins had never flooded?

fc2112 said:

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I hate to use this term - but it's the only term that fits - I've come to the conclusion that, for many, Camp Mystic was an almost cult like experience. No matter what evidence is produced, in their minds, the camp must survive above all else.

---

This was my experience working there as well, both from campers and the parents I interacted with at Opening and Closing. And I don't mean that in a derogatory way. I overheard campers talking about how their grandmother was a camper there. Saw how little girls would either freak out with joy or have a look of misery depending on whether they got selected as a Kiowa or a Tonk. For some of these folks, the camp is a part of their family history. A lot of the counselors who were their during my time, especially the ones who were previously campers, still keep in touch to this day.

Quote:

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Saw how little girls would either freak out with joy or have a look of misery depending on whether they got selected as a Kiowa or a Tonk.

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This brings back memories. I had one cousin who was Kiowa while my sister and other cousins were all Tonks. My Kiowa cousin ended up moving to the west coast and being the "independent" one in the family and I truly believe that being a Kiowa set off that chain reaction.

Ragoo said:

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dermdoc said:

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Anti-taxxer said:

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FM 949 said:

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I hope you arent basing your "facts" on things posted in this thread by folks and making absolute statements in regards to what did or did not happen.

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Like you are?

---

And this is what I don't get. I think Clarke and Evangeline have posted things that support what I alluded to at the start. I am criticized for not saying everything I knew at the start even after their posts. And to equate this topic to a coaching search seems weird to me.
And I was asked what did I expect when I posted on the thread titled as it was? Maybe not being called melodramatic. Maybe a little more empathy. Maybe a little grace.
To my knowledge, I have not attacked any posters' credibility on here like my credibility has been questioned.
And y'all are the ones who made it about me and my posts. I feel like I have been on trial.
This is not about me. It is not about any poster on here. It is about Mary Grace and all the other campers and counselors who perished. It is about a tragedy that I feel could have been fairly easily avoided with just a little foresight and preparation. I understand disagreeing with me. I do not understand some of the responses and how they were worded.

Gig 'em and God bless!

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derm, I understand your point of view. I have not experienced loss of life in the same manner but I have experienced the effects of heavy rain and sudden flooding on the Guadalupe. I experienced them first hand in 1998. The sheer volume and suddenness of the rise in water level cannot be comprehended without witness.

Where I struggle with regards to mystic and what they could have done different or better etc imo ignores the event as a whole. Zoom out a bit. The impacts of the flash flooding were felt to a similar magnitude 20-30-50 miles down river. To say mystic was negligent either discounts the other lives lost or it poses an argument that everyone involved was equally negligent. Owners of property, agencies who grant permits, departments who audit plans, etc.

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Parents of the children ?

To the best of my knowledge, the water hadn't gotten that high since the camp was established. There were pretty bad floods in '78 and '87 that killed people. Still, if you're responsible for the safety of children, you have to have a better plan in place. Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't. Especially when it comes to acts of nature. At the very least, there should have been an effective means of communication to each of the cabins.

Slicer97 said:

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fc2112 said:

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I hate to use this term - but it's the only term that fits - I've come to the conclusion that, for many, Camp Mystic was an almost cult like experience. No matter what evidence is produced, in their minds, the camp must survive above all else.

---

This was my experience working there as well, both from campers and the parents I interacted with at Opening and Closing. And I don't mean that in a derogatory way. I overheard campers talking about how their grandmother was a camper there. Saw how little girls would either freak out with joy or have a look of misery depending on whether they got selected as a Kiowa or a Tonk. For some of these folks, the camp is a part of their family history. A lot of the counselors who were their during my time, especially the ones who were previously campers, still keep in touch to this day.

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Yet another anecdote reminiscent of Bonfire.