TresPuertas said:

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this is where I can't find common ground with you.

i agree with most of what you said, but don't agree that Zelenskyy is some sort of pro democracy hero.

hes not a benovlent leader. he's a corrupt grifter. we have sent billions in cash over there and he can't account for a large percentage of it. that's corruption, and he's a major part of it. and even if he wasn't, he's not doing squat to clean it out.

Id be overjoyed to find a real leader installed who would clean out the corruption and money laundering in the government and truly advance the interests of the country and its people. but it ain't Z.

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I'm not saying he is a pro democracy hero. He's a guy in charge of a country under attack from a much more powerful neighbor. He's probably made thousands of mistakes but he and the rest of his country understands the consequences of losing to Russia.

rootube said:

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Heineken-Ashi said:

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rootube said:

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Heineken-Ashi said:

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Old McDonald said:

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RafterAg223 said:

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Old McDonald said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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Old McDonald said:

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the way trump has handled ukraine so far is roosevelt urging churchill to sue hitler for peace on any terms, and demanding england's coal reserves in return. shameful.

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You have no plan other than Trump bad give Ukraine money. That's shameful

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and trump has no plan other than give putin what he wants and hope he doesn't do it again. unamerican and cowardly.

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The only reason this is going on is because your walking vegetable became president.

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we can dispense with this talking point now. considering how ardently trump and his admin have allied themselves with putin throughout this conflict, had he been president in 2022 the russian flag would be flying over kiev today.

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Trump was president for 4 years. Weird, Putin didn't bother invading until after he was gone..

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Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 before Trump was elected.

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So when Biden was in office?

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You might want to Google that. They invaded during the Obama administration. We did absolutely nothing. Then they took Crimea. Trump didn't really do anything about it either unless you count pressuring Zelenskyy for Hunter Biden laptop help in exchange for weapons. Biden gave weapons but too little too late and here we are with Trump having a meltdown in the Oval Office. I'd say we botched the whole thing on a bipartisan basis.

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sincereag said:

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Why is the good ole USA supposed to provide a security guarantee for Ukraine? The deal that was supposed to be agreed on by both parties today was for the minerals partnership that would economically bind us with Ukraine and provide them more stability. Now we can forget that deal but Ukraine wants us to keep providing financial resources for their war. The American taxpayer will keep footing the war bill, just like we were paying for all the bogus crap that DOGE is uncovering.

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We are expected to because Zelensky was lead to believe democrats and riño run things.

Yep. Ukraine needs more than money and weapons...

DannyDuberstein said:

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TheNotoriousP.I.P. said:

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The United States used to fight wars to protect free peoples from invading forces. Some of them against the very same aggressor that now threatens Ukraine. And we did this because it was morally right to do so. If you are not disgusted by our leader openly bullying the leader of a defensive country and saddling up to minimize the atrocities of the aggressor, then I don't know what to tell you. We shouldn't base our wars and military support off of what benefits us monetarily, we should base them off of what's right and what's wrong. Why else are we spending by far the most money on military advancements if not to defend free peoples where they are threatened?

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This is a naive load of crap. We always go for self interest. But you are welcome to send every last dollar you have over there, or even better, go head for the front lines. Let's see how noble you really are. Or is it only when it's other people's money and other people's young men sent to their deaths?

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Teslag said:

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I think it's clear Putin completely miscalculated which president to invade under. Had Trump been president in 2022 he'd have just berated Zelenskyy into instantly surrendering the entire country without a fight.

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Ok…you have absolutely no idea what would have happened so let's not go there.

However, I do question why you want an endless war that could turn into WWIII.

Hubert J. Farnsworth said:

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Teslag said:

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I think it's clear Putin completely miscalculated which president to invade under. Had Trump been president in 2022 he'd have just berated Zelenskyy into instantly surrendering the entire country without a fight.

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Dude, you are usually right about a lot of stuff, but you are overly emotional about the war in Ukraine.

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It's not emotional at all. And again stop attacking posters instead of their arguments so we don't get this thread locked again.

What have you seen out of Trump to think he would threaten Russia with any consequences in 2022?

Russia succeeding in Ukraine comes with a much bigger potential for WWIII than ongoing stalemate in Ukraine. In fact, the longer the stalemate goes on, the lower the probability of a Russian aggressor conflict goes.

FIDO95 said:

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VDH with another gem

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A very informed and educated perspective on the complexities of major conflicts like this one.

Farmer_J said:

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mallen said:

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Zelensky is a hero, Trump and Vance are imbeciles.

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I can't believe this post got over the usual 2 or 3 stars from the trolls.

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Its because so many believe MSM lies, and have never seen Z in drag. They don't care, or dont care to know how corrupt Ukraine is. They will go along with the MIC always. They are neocons and neoliberals. They support establishment candidates and the corrupt uniparty.

I'm not a fan of Russia or Ukraine. But peace is not an option for those who profit off of war. Peace is not an option for those who refuse to accept the Obama and Biden administration's prodding of Putin by talks of bringing Ukraine into NATO. We could never be responsible you see because Russia could never lash out in preemptive way without being the only party at fault. Its black and white to them that Russia is bad.

Frankly our country has done a lot wrong. More Ukrainians dying for a war they will never win is foolish. Time to end it.

They aren't taking Ukraine with or without our $$$. This is alarmist bs

Teslag said:

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Hubert J. Farnsworth said:

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Teslag said:

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I think it's clear Putin completely miscalculated which president to invade under. Had Trump been president in 2022 he'd have just berated Zelenskyy into instantly surrendering the entire country without a fight.

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Dude, you are usually right about a lot of stuff, but you are overly emotional about the war in Ukraine.

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It's not emotional at all. And again stop attacking posters instead of their arguments so we don't get this thread locked again.

What have you seen out of Trump to think he would threaten Russia with any consequences in 2022?

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He kicked the crap out of ISIS in a year and nearly went to war with Little Rocket Man during his first term. He was a deterrent, which is why Putin stayed at bay, so your hypothetical argument is moot anyway.

It's not our war to end.

Or continue

Teslag said:

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It's not our war to end.

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Then we should stop funding it and stay completely out of it. Glad we agree

2004FIGHTINTXAG said:

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Teslag said:

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Hubert J. Farnsworth said:

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Teslag said:

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I think it's clear Putin completely miscalculated which president to invade under. Had Trump been president in 2022 he'd have just berated Zelenskyy into instantly surrendering the entire country without a fight.

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Dude, you are usually right about a lot of stuff, but you are overly emotional about the war in Ukraine.

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It's not emotional at all. And again stop attacking posters instead of their arguments so we don't get this thread locked again.

What have you seen out of Trump to think he would threaten Russia with any consequences in 2022?

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He kicked the crap out of ISIS in a year and nearly went to war with Little Rocket Man during his first term. He was a deterrent, which is why Putin stayed at bay, so your hypothetical argument is moot anyway.

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Except Putin literally attacked an American base while he was president. And did nothing to respond.

Zobel said:

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Russia succeeding in Ukraine comes with a much bigger potential for WWIII than ongoing stalemate in Ukraine. In fact, the longer the stalemate goes on, the lower the probability of a Russian aggressor conflict goes.

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So nukes aren't a factor during a stalemate?

Teslag said:

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Hubert J. Farnsworth said:

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Teslag said:

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I think it's clear Putin completely miscalculated which president to invade under. Had Trump been president in 2022 he'd have just berated Zelenskyy into instantly surrendering the entire country without a fight.

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Dude, you are usually right about a lot of stuff, but you are overly emotional about the war in Ukraine.

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It's not emotional at all. And again stop attacking posters instead of their arguments so we don't get this thread locked again.

What have you seen out of Trump to think he would threaten Russia with any consequences in 2022?

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I'm not sure anybody wants Trump threatening Russia. His job here, and this should be very clear to everybody, is to put a stop to this nonsense. His job here is to negotiate away for a peaceful exit.

by threatening Russia, we run the risk of getting into a hot war with them or furthering the current war.

I want it to end. And if there are consequences, why does it have to be the US who enforces them? We've thrown enough money at the problem, that didn't work, I hate Putin, but I don't see how insulting him or slapping his hand is going to work. Trump's looking at this logically with the end goal being a stop to all this

And I will add, you'd be nave and thinking that Zelenskyy doesn't have some sort of stake in the war continuing and the money faucet being left on

And what would trumps response have been had Putin invaded? Arm Ukraine and support them in a fight against Russia for 3 years?

That's exactly what Biden did. So what would Trump have done differently?

Teslag said:

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Hubert J. Farnsworth said:

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Teslag said:

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I think it's clear Putin completely miscalculated which president to invade under. Had Trump been president in 2022 he'd have just berated Zelenskyy into instantly surrendering the entire country without a fight.

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Dude, you are usually right about a lot of stuff, but you are overly emotional about the war in Ukraine.

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It's not emotional at all. And again stop attacking posters instead of their arguments so we don't get this thread locked again.

What have you seen out of Trump to think he would threaten Russia with any consequences in 2022?

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How the hell am I "attacking" you? I'm just saying that from your history, you are emotional about this war. There isn't another poster on here that gets into arguments about Ukraine like you do. If there is a thread about Ukraine, you will be there arguing with anybody that doesn't want our tax dollars going there anymore.

DannyDuberstein said:

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They aren't taking Ukraine with or without our $$$. This is alarmist bs

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This doesn't change or even address anything I wrote.

Teslag said:

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2004FIGHTINTXAG said:

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Teslag said:

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Hubert J. Farnsworth said:

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Teslag said:

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I think it's clear Putin completely miscalculated which president to invade under. Had Trump been president in 2022 he'd have just berated Zelenskyy into instantly surrendering the entire country without a fight.

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Dude, you are usually right about a lot of stuff, but you are overly emotional about the war in Ukraine.

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It's not emotional at all. And again stop attacking posters instead of their arguments so we don't get this thread locked again.

What have you seen out of Trump to think he would threaten Russia with any consequences in 2022?

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He kicked the crap out of ISIS in a year and nearly went to war with Little Rocket Man during his first term. He was a deterrent, which is why Putin stayed at bay, so your hypothetical argument is moot anyway.

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Except Putin literally attacked an American base while he was president. And did nothing to respond.

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The one we're we smoked 400-500 russians and Syrians with 40 american soldiers and zero casualties?

Quote:

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by threatening Russia, we run the risk of getting into a hot war with them or furthering the current war.

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This sounds exactly like the Democrats crying over Reagan referring to the Russians as the evil empire. Reagan called them the carpet. He wasn't afraid of them. I don't know why Trump is.

Teslag said:

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It's not our war to end.

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Yes it is.

When you see a bully picking on a small kid with a lot of fight, but he stands no chance you break it up.

It's in our interest to say enough is enough.

TresPuertas said:

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Teslag said:

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Hubert J. Farnsworth said:

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Teslag said:

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I think it's clear Putin completely miscalculated which president to invade under. Had Trump been president in 2022 he'd have just berated Zelenskyy into instantly surrendering the entire country without a fight.

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Dude, you are usually right about a lot of stuff, but you are overly emotional about the war in Ukraine.

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It's not emotional at all. And again stop attacking posters instead of their arguments so we don't get this thread locked again.

What have you seen out of Trump to think he would threaten Russia with any consequences in 2022?

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I'm not sure anybody wants Trump threatening Russia. His job here, and this should be very clear to everybody, is to put a stop to this nonsense. His job here is to negotiate away for a peaceful exit.

by threatening Russia, we run the risk of getting into a hot war with them or furthering the current war.

I want it to end. And if there are consequences, why does it have to be the US who enforces them? We've thrown enough money at the problem, that didn't work, I hate Putin, but I don't see how insulting him or slapping his hand is going to work. Trump's looking at this logically with the end goal being a stop to all this

And I will add, you'd be nave and thinking that Zelenskyy doesn't have some sort of stake in the war continuing and the money faucet being left on

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Trump.made his point of view clear- ulraine holds no cards and the usa isn't willing to simply continue spending billions there with no chance of victory.

Who?mikejones! said:

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Teslag said:

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2004FIGHTINTXAG said:

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Teslag said:

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Hubert J. Farnsworth said:

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Teslag said:

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I think it's clear Putin completely miscalculated which president to invade under. Had Trump been president in 2022 he'd have just berated Zelenskyy into instantly surrendering the entire country without a fight.

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Dude, you are usually right about a lot of stuff, but you are overly emotional about the war in Ukraine.

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It's not emotional at all. And again stop attacking posters instead of their arguments so we don't get this thread locked again.

What have you seen out of Trump to think he would threaten Russia with any consequences in 2022?

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He kicked the crap out of ISIS in a year and nearly went to war with Little Rocket Man during his first term. He was a deterrent, which is why Putin stayed at bay, so your hypothetical argument is moot anyway.

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Except Putin literally attacked an American base while he was president. And did nothing to respond.

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The one we're we smoked 400-500 russians and Syrians with 40 american soldiers and zero casualties?

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Yes. And then nothing to hold Russia accountable.

Teslag said:

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2004FIGHTINTXAG said:

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Teslag said:

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Hubert J. Farnsworth said:

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Teslag said:

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I think it's clear Putin completely miscalculated which president to invade under. Had Trump been president in 2022 he'd have just berated Zelenskyy into instantly surrendering the entire country without a fight.

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Dude, you are usually right about a lot of stuff, but you are overly emotional about the war in Ukraine.

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It's not emotional at all. And again stop attacking posters instead of their arguments so we don't get this thread locked again.

What have you seen out of Trump to think he would threaten Russia with any consequences in 2022?

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He kicked the crap out of ISIS in a year and nearly went to war with Little Rocket Man during his first term. He was a deterrent, which is why Putin stayed at bay, so your hypothetical argument is moot anyway.

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Except Putin literally attacked an American base while he was president. And did nothing to respond.

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Two separate arguments and a complete logical fallacy.

Well, except for the hundreds of dead russians

Putin is taking an L. This posturing helps him save some face to take that L. Zelensky needs to realize he's never gonna kick Russia out. They are getting a piece and always were. Zelensky gets to keep his job as long as there is war. Beware of a leader in that position. What an idiotic constitution built to motivate its leader to engage in endless war

TheNotoriousP.I.P. said:

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The United States used to fight wars to protect free peoples from invading forces. Some of them against the very same aggressor that now threatens Ukraine. And we did this because it was morally right to do so. If you are not disgusted by our leader openly bullying the leader of a defensive country and saddling up to minimize the atrocities of the aggressor, then I don't know what to tell you. We shouldn't base our wars and military support off of what benefits us monetarily, we should base them off of what's right and what's wrong. Why else are we spending by far the most money on military advancements if not to defend free peoples where they are threatened?

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This is painfully naive. "It's morally right!" is what the military industrial complex and their congressional stooges scream before they drag us into endless quagmires that waste American lives and money for nothing (Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq). Or in this case, risk world War 3 over some ethnically Russian territories that don't even want to be part of Ukraine.

Yes, Putin is a murderous psycho just as you'd expect from a former KGB officer, but make a compelling case for why it's morally right to drag out a war + risk a catastrophic escalation to help Ukraine retake Crimea. Go on and tell me what you'd tell the parents of the young American boys we'd send to die over there wresting it from Russian forces. "Your son died to protect freedom, which is why we... ignored the wishes/freedom of a bunch of ethnic Russians on the other side of the world and forced them to rejoin Ukraine? Anyway, here's a folded American flag."

TxAgPreacher said:

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Teslag said:

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It's not our war to end.

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Yes it is.

When you see a bully picking on a small kid with a lot of fight, but he stands no chance you break it up.

It's in our interest to say enough is enough.

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Ya but you generally don't end it by telling the small kid to lay there until the bully is done beating the **** out of him. Then blame the kid for it.

Not sure if you've answered this before but why are you so afraid of Russia? They aren't even close to being our enemy anymore.

Teslag said:

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I think it's clear Putin completely miscalculated which president to invade under. Had Trump been president in 2022 he'd have just berated Zelenskyy into instantly surrendering the entire country without a fight.

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Zelenskyy is probably learning that it's easier to surrender an entire country than to try and go toe-to-toe with Donald Trump in an argument. The man is relentless.