Amazon's non-RIF RIF

12,332 Views | 128 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by backintexas2013
Aggie Jurist
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9:50a, 9/24/24
AG
There was a prior thread about Amazon's RTO communication last week. What folks don't realize - this is really just a RIF without the severance costs (or the adverse impact analysis).

I went to Amazon earlier this year - doing Labor work. I've been on the road 28 of the last 32 weeks. Today I was told I need to report to the nearest building 5 days a week (an hour away) when not on company travel. Why? collaboration is the excuse. I'm in a field labor role.

I was one of the biggest proponents of RTO - and kept my prior employer from allowing people to move away from the HQ's metro area b/c I knew the pendulum would swing back. It made sense - you need people to be able to meet in order to actually solve problems.

Amazon is different. They don't have an HQ - really. They have HQ buildings all over the place - and lines of business leaders don't sit together. In my case, I'd be assigned a table somewhere in a loud sort center, doing confidential work. Makes zero sense.

So - understand what they are doing - they don't care about collaboration - they're forcing people out without paying them to leave. I'll be one of them.
LGB
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Teslag
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In reply to Aggie Jurist • 9:54a, 9/24/24
AG
Quote:
you need people to be able to meet in order to actually solve problems


This simply isn't true in my experience
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Tex100
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9:58a, 9/24/24
AG
What did you do before Amazon. Your handle doesn't sound like Amazon
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DrEvazanPhD
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In reply to Teslag • 10:00a, 9/24/24
Teslag said:
Quote:
you need people to be able to meet in order to actually solve problems


This simply isn't true in my experience
Some jobs work great remote. Some don't. In my experience, there needs to be at least a few days a week of meeting face to face to solve problems.
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Teslag
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In reply to DrEvazanPhD • 10:06a, 9/24/24
AG
Agreed. Seems like a couples days early in the week for collaboration in person then the rest of the week home making it happen works well.
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Madagascar
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In reply to Aggie Jurist • 10:10a, 9/24/24
AG
It was an unofficial RIF when Elon did it too. Amazing how one of the most hated guys in tech set this standard that now everyone is following.
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Aggie Jurist
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In reply to Tex100 • 10:13a, 9/24/24
AG
Amazon needs lawyers as much as anyone. Particularly labor lawyers right now.
LGB
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BadMoonRisin
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10:16a, 9/24/24
AG
Same deal with Dell requiring 3 days a week.

I know people that moved from RR to Ft Worth to be closer to family when they had kids because Michael Dell said that remote woek is not going anywhere and is basically the future who are now screwed.

You can still get an exception to work remotely 100%, but you cannot get promoted and cannot move internally within the company. So the message was essentially "move back at your own expense or your career is basically over here if you want to progress".

It's 100% a policy designed to increase attrition without paying severance.

The whole "we work better and can innovate more in person is just a bull**** excuse.
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evestor1
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10:18a, 9/24/24
I've been doing this in the construction industry for many years.


People get paid a lot when they are out working ... when not working they are nearly worthless ... to fire them would cost severance + other issues ... but if they quit it is no problem.


So here is what we do with a dude that is used to making 250k on the road, but currently making 150k to sit around doing zero:

Management - "Rusty, we dont have a project for you to go on right now and it may be 12 months before the next one."

Rusty - "All good gentlemen, let me know when the next project is. Until then i'll sit on the bench making less."

Management - "Sounds great, please come to Houston Office until next project. Working hours are 8-5"

Rusty - "Umm sure"



Rusty always quits within a month or two b/c he lives 4 hours away.
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Aggie95
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In reply to Aggie Jurist • 10:19a, 9/24/24
AG
And? That makes sense to me. If an organization is bloated and needs to reduce staff....find those that are willing to go the extra mile to keep their job.
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Max Stonetrail
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In reply to Teslag • 10:19a, 9/24/24
Teslag said:
Quote:
you need people to be able to meet in order to actually solve problems


This simply isn't true in my experience
You need more experience.
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Chetos
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10:19a, 9/24/24
AG
Maybe i'm reading too much into this, but it sounds like a lot of companies don't trust their guys to actually WORK at home.
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Aston04
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10:20a, 9/24/24
AG
nm
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Hagen95
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In reply to Aggie Jurist • 10:22a, 9/24/24
AG
Sounds like you've seen the light. Want to stop being told what to do by the man, stop working for him.
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riverrataggie
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10:23a, 9/24/24
AG
I ask my team to come in twice a week to solve the more difficult problems we need to address. Been doing it about a year now and people have reworked schedules. They know Monday is heads down day. Tuesday we meet to knock out barriers and so on. Collaboration is up compared to when we were all remote. People actually seem to know each other now. Things just run smoother.

It's not hard. A company can still maintain culture and work a rotation with their people to come into offices in a hybrid environment.

Note, and I should have included this. I'm not in manufacturing or healthcare, etc. There are jobs that require being in person of course. But these aren't the companies that are causing angst amongst the workforce.
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Teslag
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In reply to Chetos • 10:24a, 9/24/24
AG
Chetos said:
Maybe i'm reading too much into this, but it sounds like a lot of companies don't trust their guys to actually WORK at home.

Nope, it's a cheap and easy way to fire people.
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Teslag
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In reply to riverrataggie • 10:24a, 9/24/24
AG
riverrataggie said:
I ask my team to come in twice a week to solve the more difficult problems we need to address. Been doing it about a year now and people have reworked schedules. They know Monday is heads down day. Tuesday we meet to knock out barriers and so on. Collaboration is up compared to when we were all remote. People actually seem to know each other now. Thinks just run smoother.

It's not hard. A company can still maintain culture and work a rotation with their people to come into offices in a hybrid environment.

Yep, Hybrid is the key.
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aggie93
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In reply to Teslag • 10:29a, 9/24/24
AG
Teslag said:
Quote:
you need people to be able to meet in order to actually solve problems


This simply isn't true in my experience
Yep, very dependent on the type of role but many roles such as mine (recruiting) going into the office more than once in a while is a waste of time, money, and resources and actually declines my productivity.

What Amazon is doing is absolutely a RIF without severance. It's smart business because Amazon knows that even if they lose some top performers when they get to a point where they need them they have enough money they can go buy more later. Amazon has some of the most creative comp plans out there, especially in regards to stock and bonuses. They can put big incentives out there with creative vesting programs knowing they will only pay out a portion of them.

Have to give Bezos credit, he's a smart businessman. Ruthless as hell but smart.
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riverrataggie
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In reply to Teslag • 10:29a, 9/24/24
AG
Teslag said:
Chetos said:
Maybe i'm reading too much into this, but it sounds like a lot of companies don't trust their guys to actually WORK at home.

Nope, it's a cheap and easy way to fire people.



It's not just that, although yes people will leave so point is valid. During COVID I struggled to reach people at times during work hours. We urged flexibility, but if it's working hours and I call or text you better pick up unless you are on with a client or the ****ter. Companies did a horrible job setting expectations. And people did take advantage of it.
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FarmerJohn
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10:31a, 9/24/24
AG
Quote:
What folks don't realize - this is really just a RIF without the severance costs (or the adverse impact analysis).
I think most people realize this. We do someting similar with a drug test and maybe move people between offices in town. Not far enough to need to pay relocation, but enough to really piss them off.

As for WFH, it's like 50/50 for me. Half my guys (and me) are as productive or more. Usually those are the high performers. The other half is markedly worse. But if I made a policy of only high performers working from home, the low performers would be just as poor at the office without the high performers to drag them along.
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Ag87H2O
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10:32a, 9/24/24
AG
Amazon leadership has every right to run their business as they see fit. Sounds like a smart business move to me.
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Charpie
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10:42a, 9/24/24
AG
Shocking not shocking.

Market is really different right now. I wish everyone at Amazon the best of luck.
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Aggie Jurist
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In reply to Ag87H2O • 10:43a, 9/24/24
AG
Quote:
Amazon leadership has every right to run their business as they see fit. Sounds like a smart business move to me.
Never said otherwise. The only issue - people were hired into jobs that were remote - as I was - and relied to their detriment on Amazon's designation. Not unusual - happens all the time. Amazon needs to cut and they don't care how productive the employee or necessary the work. I'll move on happily to something more fulfilling to finish out my career. I just thought it interesting given the BS excuse given. This isn't about any benefit to returning to office. It's just a cost-cutting move.
LGB
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CDUB98
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11:10a, 9/24/24
AG
It's a double edged sword of smart business move, but also ****ty employee screw over move.

If people were hired in as remote, suddenly forcing them to report to the nearest center or lose their job is just callous.

Someone in BFE Idaho could have been doing a great job, but live 2-3 hours away. That sucks for them and their livelihood.

But, I do also understand that businesses are not charity organizations. They cannot keep people just because.

It seems a compromise could have been struck between the two extremes.
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texsn95
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11:11a, 9/24/24
AG
RTO is both safe and effective!
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TxAG#2011
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11:16a, 9/24/24
So you were all about other people RTO but when it came to you, you thought you were above it and now you're upset?

What's the issue here?
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Hoyt Ag
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In reply to Ag87H2O • 11:21a, 9/24/24
AG
Ag87H2O said:
Amazon leadership has every right to run their business as they see fit. Sounds like a smart business move to me.
Agreed, our company did the same this year. It was hilarious to see the comments in the town halls when it was announced. Cry me a f'ing river, it was told to all at the beginning it was not a permanent work assignment and you would be coming back. We had 3 people move to Hawaii from Denver and were 'outraged' that they had to make a choice. EL O EL.
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Robert C. Christian
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In reply to Aggie Jurist • 11:28a, 9/24/24
AG
Aggie Jurist said:
I went to Amazon earlier this year - doing Labor work. I've been on the road 28 of the last 32 weeks. Today I was told I need to report to the nearest building 5 days a week (an hour away) when not on company travel. Why? collaboration is the excuse. I'm in a field labor role.

I was one of the biggest proponents of RTO - and kept my prior employer from allowing people to move away from the HQ's metro area b/c I knew the pendulum would swing back. It made sense - you need people to be able to meet in order to actually solve problems.

So you were one of the biggest proponents of not being remote, actively encouraged your previous employer to not go this route, and are now surprised you are being told to be in office when not on the road?

Isn't this exactly what you advocated for?
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TyHolden
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11:31a, 9/24/24
AG
Amazon, Google, Meta, etc....they all suck.
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torrid
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11:31a, 9/24/24
AG
I think the point he's making is this isn't about RTO but a backdoor layoff without needing to pay severance.
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CDUB98
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In reply to Hoyt Ag • 11:31a, 9/24/24
AG
Hoyt Ag said:
Ag87H2O said:
Amazon leadership has every right to run their business as they see fit. Sounds like a smart business move to me.
Agreed, our company did the same this year. It was hilarious to see the comments in the town halls when it was announced. Cry me a f'ing river, it was told to all at the beginning it was not a permanent work assignment and you would be coming back. We had 3 people move to Hawaii from Denver and were 'outraged' that they had to make a choice. EL O EL.
And every day you have slogged your ass back and forth to do your job.

Yeah, they can go suck a tailpipe.
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AgLA06
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In reply to DrEvazanPhD • 11:43a, 9/24/24
AG
DrEvazanPhD said:
Teslag said:
Quote:
you need people to be able to meet in order to actually solve problems


This simply isn't true in my experience
Some jobs work great remote. Some don't. In my experience, there needs to be at least a few days a week of meeting face to face to solve problems.
In my experience people either perform or they don't. It doesn't matter if they're walking around taking 35 smoke breaks or talking football or sitting at home.

I've said this on other threads, but for a technology company to try and say they can't effectively work from home is embarrassing. Even if it is just an excuse to cut headcount.

There's plenty of examples of companies that have employees all over the world in different times zones with assemblies and key parts made in dozens of countries for complex high dollar projects that don't have the same problems. Unless it is a hands on technical service role or manufacturing, it ultimately comes down to competency, expectations, and decent management.
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AgLA06
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In reply to Hoyt Ag • 11:47a, 9/24/24
AG
Hoyt Ag said:
Ag87H2O said:
Amazon leadership has every right to run their business as they see fit. Sounds like a smart business move to me.
Agreed, our company did the same this year. It was hilarious to see the comments in the town halls when it was announced. Cry me a f'ing river, it was told to all at the beginning it was not a permanent work assignment and you would be coming back. We had 3 people move to Hawaii from Denver and were 'outraged' that they had to make a choice. EL O EL.
That sounds very different.

This is a company trying to sell companies on purchasing their cloud solutions instead of investing in on site options and infrastructure. Their sales force should be pissed as at best it a bit hypocritical.
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I Am A Critic
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11:50a, 9/24/24
It's amazing that in a few short years WFH, remote, hybrid, etc have all turned into a worker's "right."
Username checks out.
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TyHolden
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11:51a, 9/24/24
AG
It's probably pretty easy to get fired and get a severance if you want one . No reason to quit.
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