Chetos said:

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Maybe i'm reading too much into this, but it sounds like a lot of companies don't trust their guys to actually WORK at home.

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So this sounds like a:

• Hiring problem, or
• Leadership problem

AgLA06 said:

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Hoyt Ag said:

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Ag87H2O said:

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Amazon leadership has every right to run their business as they see fit. Sounds like a smart business move to me.

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Agreed, our company did the same this year. It was hilarious to see the comments in the town halls when it was announced. Cry me a f'ing river, it was told to all at the beginning it was not a permanent work assignment and you would be coming back. We had 3 people move to Hawaii from Denver and were 'outraged' that they had to make a choice. EL O EL.

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That sounds very different.

This is a company trying to sell companies on purchasing their cloud solutions instead of investing in on site options and infrastructure. Their sales force should be pissed as at best it a bit hypocritical.

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Its just an example of how a company will always do what is best for them and run however they see fit. Ours finally made the decision to call people back, even though I was not sure they ever would since those that got the option to work remote had gotten so comfortable. I was never remote, I run large power plants and was never given that option. I was in the plants every single day.

As to your point, I agree 100%.

BadMoonRisin said:

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Same deal with Dell requiring 3 days a week.

I know people that moved from RR to Ft Worth to be closer to family when they had kids because Michael Dell said that remote woek is not going anywhere and is basically the future who are now screwed.

You can still get an exception to work remotely 100%, but you cannot get promoted and cannot move internally within the company. So the message was essentially "move back at your own expense or your career is basically over here if you want to progress".

It's 100% a policy designed to increase attrition without paying severance.

The whole "we work better and can innovate more in person is just a bull**** excuse.

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Never believe a t-sip. Especially a drop out.

Aggie Jurist said:

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Amazon needs lawyers as much as anyone. Particularly labor lawyers right now.

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Cool. But that is a job that keeps you on the road?

BadMoonRisin said:

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That's the weird part. Michael Dell had a goal of having 75% of his workforce remote by 2025. And this was his stated goal for several years pre-COVID. I worked there from 09 to 23. Since about 2016, I had only been going into the office once a week. When COVID hit, we went fully remote (you actually had to have VP level approvals just to get your badge activated to enter the campus unless you were deemed essential onsite).

Then, they slapped the RTO mandate back on the table, which didn't make sense. It wasn't going back pre-COVID...for a lot of people, it was going back to the early 2010s and walking back an initiative that Michael Dell had for almost a decade prior to COVID.

The only thing that makes sense is that they want to grind down the employee numbers on the cheap.

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This is a new information and interesting. I know Dell has already had layoffs before even announcing this. I know one guy who was very high up who was laid off (which surprised me).

Regardless, this is clearly a RIF move. One can only assume PC purchases and refresh schedules at corporate HQ's were paused, delayed, etc which impacted Dell's revenue in a major way during COVID, but I'm guessing.

Not sure what other revenue streams they have besides corporate computer purchasing. I know few people who actually buy a Dell for residential use.

Tex100 said:

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What did you do before Amazon. Your handle doesn't sound like Amazon

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I was thinking that too. He's a real life Peter Gibbons!

Dell actually had it's best fiscal quarter/year in 2020 due to everyone having to buy PCs to work/school remotely.

The problem is that no one realized the obvious -- that you cant comp YoY growth during such a massive one-off event-- the government isnt going to continue to hand out thousands in stimulus $$$ and create hundreds of thousands of new customers (school aged children) when they closed all of the schools for several months.

So they hired like crazy thinking the party was never going to end, until it did.

They are still hacking away every quarter and it truly does not matter if you are a high performer or how long you have been there. It's just a numbers game on a spreadsheet.

The market was tough and it took longer than I expected it to find something else, but I am super happy not to be there anymore. I know many more who have been RIF since I did and many more still at the company. Morale is in the ****ter.

It is. In my prior role I made sure that communication to employees made it clear that remote work was temporary. I was hired into a remote role. And we aren't being required to return to 'the' office - just the closest building - with no designated work space. The work I do is a bit confidential- so working in a warehouse common area isn't the best of ideas.

Yes. Ever been in a labor campaign?

Madagascar said:

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It was an unofficial RIF when Elon did it too. Amazing how one of the most hated guys in tech set this standard that now everyone is following.

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He didn't really set the 'standard'. Many companies had been doing this...especially right after COVID.

DrEvazanPhD said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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you need people to be able to meet in order to actually solve problems

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This simply isn't true in my experience

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Some jobs work great remote. Some don't. In my experience, there needs to be at least a few days a week of meeting face to face to solve problems.

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Face to Face, yeah, but... this is your face:

Deputy Travis Junior said:

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Ag87H2O said:

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Amazon leadership has every right to run their business as they see fit. Sounds like a smart business move to me.

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Severance is the cost of firing the people that you actually want and need to fire. You can do a cheap stealth RIF like, but leadership has no idea who's going to leave and who's going to stay. A high performer who lives in another state and doesn't want to move his family may quit and get a different job while a plodder who lives close by will stick around. Firing your smart people and holding on to your dumb ones is not a smart business move.

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That's the one right you always have as an employee that no one can take away, the ability to say **** this **** and go work someplace else.

This is not a new concept. It's a cheaper way to do a RIF, and if you end up losing someone you absolutely want to keep, you find some way to make an exception.

Amazon is not a warm fuzzy place to work from what I've read. But I assume you can make a lot of money there.

Anyone who places that level of trust in an employer and gets upset when the employer shows no loyalty in return has only themselves to blame.

Deputy Travis Junior said:

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Ag87H2O said:

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Amazon leadership has every right to run their business as they see fit. Sounds like a smart business move to me.

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Severance is the cost of firing the people that you actually want and need to fire. You can do a cheap stealth RIF like, but leadership has no idea who's going to leave and who's going to stay. A high performer who lives in another state and doesn't want to move his family may quit and get a different job while a plodder who lives close by will stick around. Firing your smart people and holding on to your dumb ones is not a smart business move.

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So many companies do not understand this or push the easy button and worry about the repercussions later. In some cases, it's also executive leadership not wanting to deal with the inevitable Game of Thrones that gets played if they actually tried to do targeted cuts to areas they really don't need any longer.

In other words, it's laziness.

Good Amazon!

YouBet said:

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Deputy Travis Junior said:

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Ag87H2O said:

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Amazon leadership has every right to run their business as they see fit. Sounds like a smart business move to me.

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Severance is the cost of firing the people that you actually want and need to fire. You can do a cheap stealth RIF like, but leadership has no idea who's going to leave and who's going to stay. A high performer who lives in another state and doesn't want to move his family may quit and get a different job while a plodder who lives close by will stick around. Firing your smart people and holding on to your dumb ones is not a smart business move.

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So many companies do not understand this or push the easy button and worry about the repercussions later. In some cases, it's also executive leadership not wanting to deal with the inevitable Game of Thrones that gets played if they actually tried to do targeted cuts to areas they really don't need any longer.

In other words, it's laziness.

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I was at Lockheed in the late 90s (as a contractor) and they did a RIF and basically said that EVERY department had to cut 10%. Didn't matter if Dept A had 40% low performers and Dept B had 100% high performers.

It was dumb as ****. I'm sure they lost a lot of excellent engineers since it WAS in DFW and there are tons of places for the high performers to land.

I was trying to find a place before I got let go (because contractors go first, typically) and my boss told me I wasn't on the list...

I'm a lucky mother ****er.

Ag with kids said:

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I'm a lucky mother ******.

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incest is best!

C@LAg said:

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Ag with kids said:

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I'm a lucky mother ******.

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incest is best!

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As long as you keep it in the family.

If you were hired into a remote position, or given permission to move away from the office, changing the rules and tellng you you now have to come to the office is a dick move.

Edit: If you just moved during COVID because you were now "remote" and didn't get approval then you have no leg to stand on.

Quote:

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If you were hired into a remote position, or given permission to move away from the office, changing the rules and tellng you you now have to come to the office is a dick move.

Edit: If you just moved during COVID because you were now "remote" and didn't get approval then you have no leg to stand on.

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I couldn't respond earlier b/c I'm currently on the road (as I have been for 28 weeks since 2/1), but some of the comments above are funny.

Legally, there is no leg to stand on here. Note however, I was hired into a virtual role - tens of thousands at Amazon were. Amazon (as is its right) decided to change work locations - but the reasoning given is a complete joke. Just say, "hey, we need fewer people, so we're changing the rules to see how many will quit" - that really doesn't change much from a liability perspective.

If I want to stay (and I don't) I have to drive an hour to badge in to a delivery station and then squat somewhere to work (likely my vehicle) b/c the work I do is confidential in nature. I'm a labor lawyer - probably not the best idea to have me out in the open working on legal issues surrounded by employees.

I started this thread simply to comment that Amazon is doing a RIF under a different moniker - it's not about getting people 'back' in the office - we aren't being assigned office space - and as I said earlier, I prefer 'in office' work. If they assigned me an office in the same space as my team, I'd consider moving to wherever that was. I truly believe teams are more effective in physical proximity, but again that's not what's happening here.

The joys of business, I have worked from home 99% of the time when not travelling to a customer and my manager left. They are talking to some guys that want some of us to be in the office when we are not making sales calls. We cover a huge part country and some of us live almost 3 hours from the office. Getting the wrong manager can suck

Aggie Jurist said:

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you need people to be able to meet in order to actually solve problems.

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I can't think of a single meeting where I thought "wow. That was a great and productive use of my time."

In my experience, people who like meetings are middle managers who need to justify their position.

Only employees like wfh and I understand why. You so far less work, have side gigs, workout, start late, end early, "work" while
On vacation, etc etc etc.

It only existed bc of Covid and business owners had to compete thereafter for talent. It's days are now numbered and rightfully so

LuoJi said:

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Only employees like wfh and I understand why. You so far less work, have side gigs, workout, start late, end early, "work" while
On vacation, etc etc etc.

It only existed bc of Covid and business owners had to compete thereafter for talent. It's days are now numbered and rightfully so

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I have worked from home for almost 17 years as well as most of my coworkers. We are on commission so we have plenty of motivation to work hard and most of us work more than your standard 9-5 hours. Our branch is the most profitable in the company. Best part is we don't have to lose out on time driving too and from the office most days.

Working from home can be more successful but there needs to be the right motivation for employees to get the work done. I don't like going in the office since when I do I am helping other people about half the time.

LuoJi said:

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Only employees like wfh and I understand why. You so far less work, have side gigs, workout, start late, end early, "work" while
On vacation, etc etc etc.

It only existed bc of Covid and business owners had to compete thereafter for talent. It's days are now numbered and rightfully so

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This is a perfect example of a mindset of someone that has no business in managing people. If your employees aren't producing as a manager, there's 2 people to blame. The employee and the manager that isn't managing.

If it's the company (or senior leadership) there's no point in staying.

E_TX_Ag12 said:

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Aggie Jurist said:

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you need people to be able to meet in order to actually solve problems.

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I can't think of a single meeting where I thought "wow. That was a great and productive use of my time."

In my experience, people who like meetings are middle managers who need to justify their position.

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I get the sentiment, but I question how critical your role or product is. Because I've definitely seen my share of 911 fire drills where the S hit the fan and we had to get the right people together immediately or millions in dollars of penalties per day were going to hit the project.

That didn't mean they had to be in the same room, or office or time zone. But it necessitated the best minds right then. It's funny how if you respect great employees time and professionalism, they'll go above and beyond when it matters.

BadMoonRisin said:

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Dell actually had it's best fiscal quarter/year in 2020 due to everyone having to buy PCs to work/school remotely.

The problem is that no one realized the obvious -- that you cant comp YoY growth during such a massive one-off event-- the government isnt going to continue to hand out thousands in stimulus $$$ and create hundreds of thousands of new customers (school aged children) when they closed all of the schools for several months.

So they hired like crazy thinking the party was never going to end, until it did.

They are still hacking away every quarter and it truly does not matter if you are a high performer or how long you have been there. It's just a numbers game on a spreadsheet.

The market was tough and it took longer than I expected it to find something else, but I am super happy not to be there anymore. I know many more who have been RIF since I did and many more still at the company. Morale is in the ****ter.

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I started at Dell in 2000. I was there for the first RIFs ever which changed the culture. Things feel very similar to 2005-2007 when Michael stepped back and Kevin Rollins took over. That was a complete disaster.

I think it's Jeff Clarke pushing RTO. I heard nearly 60% of folks chose remote earlier in the year even with the restrictions. I'm luckily field and don't have to worry about that piece ATM.

There's also zero strategy at Dell. Just latching onto the latest buzz words like "AI factory". The VMware sale has been an absolute disaster for our customers. I bought a Mac last year because my last experience with Dell tech support was so bad.

Agreed. That's why I said it was a dick move, not illegal.