nu awlins ag said:

---

Hornbeck said:

---

I am all for a flat tax, but you guys are coming way close to a Libertarian view.

---

Different rates for different incomes. Flat tax would never work. A better solution is a "use tax". Spend more pay more. If I want a BMW and can afford it and the use tax, go for it. With an absolute flat tax, there will still be many not paying anything and some paying too little. Create 2-3 brackets and I think you have a solid point.

---

How would someone earning an income not pay anything with a flat tax?

This. Flat Tax of 10% across the board. From the person living in Section 8 to Elon Musk. Corporations as well. You make $X? You pay $y ($X-10%) No loopholes, no tax shelters, no nothing. None of this withholding crap either. Make the citizens pay that every paycheck. I think people will get a lot less apathetic about their government then.

Tom Fox said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Hornbeck said:

---

I am all for a flat tax, but you guys are coming way close to a Libertarian view.

---

Different rates for different incomes. Flat tax would never work. A better solution is a "use tax". Spend more pay more. If I want a BMW and can afford it and the use tax, go for it. With an absolute flat tax, there will still be many not paying anything and some paying too little. Create 2-3 brackets and I think you have a solid point.

---

How would someone earning an income not pay anything with a flat tax?

---

Re-read my comment. I didn't say no one working wouldn't pay any taxes. You need different brackets. A 20% bracket for someone making 500k is different than someone making 40k. Again, make brackets based on income period. As long as someone is contributing to the pot, the better. Right now, 35-40% of the population is contributing anything to pot.

AggieShanks said:

---

The top rate in the "golden age" of America as you all refer to had the top rate being taxed at 94 percent. The 1% couldn't even spend all of their money if they tried, and I'm speaking strictly on earned income from work. I can care less about that stock earnings.

---

Why do you think people back then had company cars, company memberships at country clubs, took stock instead of salary, etc etc

NOBODY paid the top rate. Your ignorance is astounding

Hornbeck said:

---

I am all for a flat tax, but you guys are coming way close to a Libertarian view.

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Hornbeck said:

---

I am all for a flat tax, but you guys are coming way close to a Libertarian view.

---

Different rates for different incomes. Flat tax would never work. A better solution is a "use tax". Spend more pay more. If I want a BMW and can afford it and the use tax, go for it. With an absolute flat tax, there will still be many not paying anything and some paying too little. Create 2-3 brackets and I think you have a solid point.

---

So you want to bring back the disastrous Luxury Tax passed in 1991?

It was a true disaster then. What makes you think it wouldn't be a true disaster (or worse) the second time around?

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Hornbeck said:

---

I am all for a flat tax, but you guys are coming way close to a Libertarian view.

---

Different rates for different incomes. Flat tax would never work. A better solution is a "use tax". Spend more pay more. If I want a BMW and can afford it and the use tax, go for it. With an absolute flat tax, there will still be many not paying anything and some paying too little. Create 2-3 brackets and I think you have a solid point.

---

So you want to bring back the disastrous Luxury Tax passed in 1991?

It was a true disaster then. What makes you think it wouldn't be a true disaster (or worse) the second time around?

---

People that trash flat taxes are just interested in punishing people for being successful because they know they can't achieve the financial success of those they want the government to rob in the name of fairness.

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Hornbeck said:

---

I am all for a flat tax, but you guys are coming way close to a Libertarian view.

---

Different rates for different incomes. Flat tax would never work. A better solution is a "use tax". Spend more pay more. If I want a BMW and can afford it and the use tax, go for it. With an absolute flat tax, there will still be many not paying anything and some paying too little. Create 2-3 brackets and I think you have a solid point.

---

So you want to bring back the disastrous Luxury Tax passed in 1991?

It was a true disaster then. What makes you think it wouldn't be a true disaster (or worse) the second time around?

---

.

I never said that. You can't have one flat tax for everyone, don't be obtuse. You have to have 2 maybe 3 for every one. Do the math yourself and get back to me. Seriously…

During the 50s, the effective tax rate for the 1% was less than 30%.

The 90%+ tax rate in the 50s was only on the income left over AFTER deductions. Back then there were so many deductions, that the remainder was only a small portion of overall income.

This leftists talking point is full of ignorance.

nu awlins ag said:

---

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Hornbeck said:

---

I am all for a flat tax, but you guys are coming way close to a Libertarian view.

---

Different rates for different incomes. Flat tax would never work. A better solution is a "use tax". Spend more pay more. If I want a BMW and can afford it and the use tax, go for it. With an absolute flat tax, there will still be many not paying anything and some paying too little. Create 2-3 brackets and I think you have a solid point.

---

So you want to bring back the disastrous Luxury Tax passed in 1991?

It was a true disaster then. What makes you think it wouldn't be a true disaster (or worse) the second time around?

---

.

I never said that. You can't have one flat tax for everyone, don't be obtuse. You have to have 2 maybe 3 for every one. Do the math yourself and get back to me. Seriously…

---

Why? Do those at the bottom consume less government resources? I bet they consume more. Why should I have to pay more? What do I get for paying more? If they didn't get to vote, I would be ok with it.

Because if they are unaffected by the top tax brackets there is zero incentive for them not vote to keep increasing them and they outnumber me 100 to 1.

Been on vacay last week. Now I have Covid.

In real life I'm a moderate. But here, I am the reincarnation of Chairman Mao.

GeorgiAg said:

---

Been on vacay last week. Now I have Covid.

In real life I'm a moderate. But here, I am the reincarnation of Chairman Mao.

---

In no universe is a Biden voter a moderate. Let it go. You're a liberal.

Schneider Electric said:

---

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Hornbeck said:

---

I am all for a flat tax, but you guys are coming way close to a Libertarian view.

---

Different rates for different incomes. Flat tax would never work. A better solution is a "use tax". Spend more pay more. If I want a BMW and can afford it and the use tax, go for it. With an absolute flat tax, there will still be many not paying anything and some paying too little. Create 2-3 brackets and I think you have a solid point.

---

So you want to bring back the disastrous Luxury Tax passed in 1991?

It was a true disaster then. What makes you think it wouldn't be a true disaster (or worse) the second time around?

---

People that trash flat taxes are just interested in punishing people for being successful because they know they can't achieve the financial success of those they want the government to rob in the name of fairness.

---

Are you ok with deductions? Thats effectively a progressive tax (0% to whatever the "flat" rate is). Curious if you think people should pay income taxes on income used for food, water, clothes, basic housing, etc.

MaxPower said:

---

Schneider Electric said:

---

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Hornbeck said:

---

I am all for a flat tax, but you guys are coming way close to a Libertarian view.

---

Different rates for different incomes. Flat tax would never work. A better solution is a "use tax". Spend more pay more. If I want a BMW and can afford it and the use tax, go for it. With an absolute flat tax, there will still be many not paying anything and some paying too little. Create 2-3 brackets and I think you have a solid point.

---

So you want to bring back the disastrous Luxury Tax passed in 1991?

It was a true disaster then. What makes you think it wouldn't be a true disaster (or worse) the second time around?

---

People that trash flat taxes are just interested in punishing people for being successful because they know they can't achieve the financial success of those they want the government to rob in the name of fairness.

---

Are you ok with deductions? Thats effectively a progressive tax (0% to whatever the "flat" rate is). Curious if you think people should pay income taxes on income used for food, water, clothes, basic housing, etc.

---

Yes. On every single dollar they make. Just like me.

nu awlins ag said:

---

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Hornbeck said:

---

I am all for a flat tax, but you guys are coming way close to a Libertarian view.

---

Different rates for different incomes. Flat tax would never work. A better solution is a "use tax". Spend more pay more. If I want a BMW and can afford it and the use tax, go for it. With an absolute flat tax, there will still be many not paying anything and some paying too little. Create 2-3 brackets and I think you have a solid point.

---

So you want to bring back the disastrous Luxury Tax passed in 1991?

It was a true disaster then. What makes you think it wouldn't be a true disaster (or worse) the second time around?

---

.

I never said that. You can't have one flat tax for everyone, don't be obtuse. You have to have 2 maybe 3 for every one. Do the math yourself and get back to me. Seriously…

---

As always, the answer is to increase the tax BASE.

Based on our current actual working population, if we merely added 10% of the working age people who are not part of the labor force, we could actually decrease taxes over a thousand per person and still net the same amount of the total individual taxes we have now. Not to mention more payroll taxes and consumption taxes.

But you're actually right. A 10% flat tax would drastically lower income tax revenue, as the overwhelming majority comes from the higher end. There isn't enough of a tax base to realistically add to make up the difference you would lose.

But again, lowering taxes for the most productive subset of American, the ones most likely to invest and start companies, while gutting the entitlement system and drastically cutting regulations, would lead to an absolute boom in the economy. I'm not sure how to calculate the tax benefits of significantly more people working, participating, and spending in that economy, much less the massive increase in corporate tax income. But that scenario would be most ideal.

Unfortunately, it truly is a meaningless exercise UNTIL the entitlement system is brought to its knees and spending cut by more than half, which is not possible without overwhelming majority buy-in since the most spending is on non-discretionary (interest on the debt, military, and entitlements).

Tom Fox said:

---

MaxPower said:

---

Schneider Electric said:

---

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Hornbeck said:

---

I am all for a flat tax, but you guys are coming way close to a Libertarian view.

---

Different rates for different incomes. Flat tax would never work. A better solution is a "use tax". Spend more pay more. If I want a BMW and can afford it and the use tax, go for it. With an absolute flat tax, there will still be many not paying anything and some paying too little. Create 2-3 brackets and I think you have a solid point.

---

So you want to bring back the disastrous Luxury Tax passed in 1991?

It was a true disaster then. What makes you think it wouldn't be a true disaster (or worse) the second time around?

---

People that trash flat taxes are just interested in punishing people for being successful because they know they can't achieve the financial success of those they want the government to rob in the name of fairness.

---

Are you ok with deductions? Thats effectively a progressive tax (0% to whatever the "flat" rate is). Curious if you think people should pay income taxes on income used for food, water, clothes, basic housing, etc.

---

Yes. On every single dollar they make. Just like me.

---

Nobody should pay any income taxes. Everything should be fee based as much as possible.

aTmAg said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

MaxPower said:

---

Schneider Electric said:

---

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Hornbeck said:

---

I am all for a flat tax, but you guys are coming way close to a Libertarian view.

---

Different rates for different incomes. Flat tax would never work. A better solution is a "use tax". Spend more pay more. If I want a BMW and can afford it and the use tax, go for it. With an absolute flat tax, there will still be many not paying anything and some paying too little. Create 2-3 brackets and I think you have a solid point.

---

So you want to bring back the disastrous Luxury Tax passed in 1991?

It was a true disaster then. What makes you think it wouldn't be a true disaster (or worse) the second time around?

---

People that trash flat taxes are just interested in punishing people for being successful because they know they can't achieve the financial success of those they want the government to rob in the name of fairness.

---

Are you ok with deductions? Thats effectively a progressive tax (0% to whatever the "flat" rate is). Curious if you think people should pay income taxes on income used for food, water, clothes, basic housing, etc.

---

Yes. On every single dollar they make. Just like me.

---

Nobody should pay any income taxes. Everything should be fee based as much as possible.

---

I'm fine with that too. But if I am paying taxes every single American should be paying the exact same rate. If that was the case, taxes would be much lower. Instead they are all "eat the rich."

Oh and get ready for the leeches to cry that consumption taxes are regressive.

The reason most leftist opinions get shot down so quickly is because in general, most leftist opinions look so incredibly stupid when they are actually written out.

Username is suspect

TA-OP said:

---

I'm self-proclaimed left. It's no secret that I lean left on many issues. I view F16 as an opportunity to learn from those with differing opinions. Unfortunately, the board is not set up to support many thoughtful discussions across the center line. Left posts typically get spam reported and receive many unrelated responses. Ad Hom attacks are frequent and aren't moderated evenly.

Still, I lurk often and tend to only post when I shave some free time so that I can respond.

---

The reason is, because it's so hard to compromise with the current "left of center" because of how far center has moved. Any compromise means a very liberal take

You can't really compromise with covid

You can't compromise with gun control

We have seen time and time again what happens when the government gets a little power

Tom Fox said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

MaxPower said:

---

Schneider Electric said:

---

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Hornbeck said:

---

I am all for a flat tax, but you guys are coming way close to a Libertarian view.

---

Different rates for different incomes. Flat tax would never work. A better solution is a "use tax". Spend more pay more. If I want a BMW and can afford it and the use tax, go for it. With an absolute flat tax, there will still be many not paying anything and some paying too little. Create 2-3 brackets and I think you have a solid point.

---

So you want to bring back the disastrous Luxury Tax passed in 1991?

It was a true disaster then. What makes you think it wouldn't be a true disaster (or worse) the second time around?

---

People that trash flat taxes are just interested in punishing people for being successful because they know they can't achieve the financial success of those they want the government to rob in the name of fairness.

---

Are you ok with deductions? Thats effectively a progressive tax (0% to whatever the "flat" rate is). Curious if you think people should pay income taxes on income used for food, water, clothes, basic housing, etc.

---

Yes. On every single dollar they make. Just like me.

---

Nobody should pay any income taxes. Everything should be fee based as much as possible.

---

I'm fine with that too. But if I am paying taxes every single American should be paying the exact same rate. If that was the case, taxes would be much lower. Instead they are all "eat the rich."

Oh and get ready for the leeches to cry that consumption taxes are regressive.

---

I've come to believe that the ideal fee based tax system would not last. That the left would quickly ignore the goal and purpose of it and *******ize into a system that buys votes by soaking the rich by imposing "rich fees".

So now I've come to think that the federal government should tax entire states based on their population. Then it would be up to the states to tax it's citizens to pay it's overall state bill. That way, if a state soaks the rich, then the rich can just leave for other states. It would create competition in order to maintain a tax base.

Of course, there is still a vulnerability in the federal government simply handing out money to people to buy their votes. I'm still pondering of a good system to avoid that. It seems simple at first, but then I can always think of gotchas for each of them.

Tom Fox said:

---

MaxPower said:

---

Schneider Electric said:

---

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Hornbeck said:

---

I am all for a flat tax, but you guys are coming way close to a Libertarian view.

---

Different rates for different incomes. Flat tax would never work. A better solution is a "use tax". Spend more pay more. If I want a BMW and can afford it and the use tax, go for it. With an absolute flat tax, there will still be many not paying anything and some paying too little. Create 2-3 brackets and I think you have a solid point.

---

So you want to bring back the disastrous Luxury Tax passed in 1991?

It was a true disaster then. What makes you think it wouldn't be a true disaster (or worse) the second time around?

---

People that trash flat taxes are just interested in punishing people for being successful because they know they can't achieve the financial success of those they want the government to rob in the name of fairness.

---

Are you ok with deductions? Thats effectively a progressive tax (0% to whatever the "flat" rate is). Curious if you think people should pay income taxes on income used for food, water, clothes, basic housing, etc.

---

Yes. On every single dollar they make. Just like me.

---

Except you don't pay taxes on every single dollar. You get deductions. As long as deductions exist, it's a progressive income tax system.

aTmAg said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

aTmAg said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

MaxPower said:

---

Schneider Electric said:

---

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Hornbeck said:

---

I am all for a flat tax, but you guys are coming way close to a Libertarian view.

---

Different rates for different incomes. Flat tax would never work. A better solution is a "use tax". Spend more pay more. If I want a BMW and can afford it and the use tax, go for it. With an absolute flat tax, there will still be many not paying anything and some paying too little. Create 2-3 brackets and I think you have a solid point.

---

So you want to bring back the disastrous Luxury Tax passed in 1991?

It was a true disaster then. What makes you think it wouldn't be a true disaster (or worse) the second time around?

---

People that trash flat taxes are just interested in punishing people for being successful because they know they can't achieve the financial success of those they want the government to rob in the name of fairness.

---

Are you ok with deductions? Thats effectively a progressive tax (0% to whatever the "flat" rate is). Curious if you think people should pay income taxes on income used for food, water, clothes, basic housing, etc.

---

Yes. On every single dollar they make. Just like me.

---

Nobody should pay any income taxes. Everything should be fee based as much as possible.

---

I'm fine with that too. But if I am paying taxes every single American should be paying the exact same rate. If that was the case, taxes would be much lower. Instead they are all "eat the rich."

Oh and get ready for the leeches to cry that consumption taxes are regressive.

---

I've come to believe that the ideal fee based tax system would not last. That the left would quickly ignore the goal and purpose of it and *******ize into a system that buys votes by soaking the rich by imposing "rich fees".

So now I've come to think that the federal government should tax entire states based on their population. Then it would be up to the states to tax it's citizens to pay it's overall state bill. That way, if a state soaks the rich, then the rich can just leave for other states. It would create competition in order to maintain a tax base.

Of course, there is still a vulnerability in the federal government simply handing out money to people to buy their votes. I'm still pondering of a good system to avoid that. It seems simple at first, but then I can always think of gotchas for each of them.

---

The system already existed. End universal suffrage. If the ones footing the bill vote to soak themselves, then so be it.

Net takers should not be permitted to vote and everyone should have the same skin in the game.

I consider them alumni with mental problems. I would help out a longhorn R before I'd ever help out a libtard regardless if they went to school here

AggieShanks said:

---

Because resources are finite. The system can only hold so much money because it is built on finite resources.

---

Nope. No wonder you vote for marxism.

MaxPower said:

---

Tom Fox said:

---

MaxPower said:

---

Schneider Electric said:

---

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Hornbeck said:

---

I am all for a flat tax, but you guys are coming way close to a Libertarian view.

---

Different rates for different incomes. Flat tax would never work. A better solution is a "use tax". Spend more pay more. If I want a BMW and can afford it and the use tax, go for it. With an absolute flat tax, there will still be many not paying anything and some paying too little. Create 2-3 brackets and I think you have a solid point.

---

So you want to bring back the disastrous Luxury Tax passed in 1991?

It was a true disaster then. What makes you think it wouldn't be a true disaster (or worse) the second time around?

---

People that trash flat taxes are just interested in punishing people for being successful because they know they can't achieve the financial success of those they want the government to rob in the name of fairness.

---

Are you ok with deductions? Thats effectively a progressive tax (0% to whatever the "flat" rate is). Curious if you think people should pay income taxes on income used for food, water, clothes, basic housing, etc.

---

Yes. On every single dollar they make. Just like me.

---

Except you don't pay taxes on every single dollar. You get deductions. As long as deductions exist, it's a progressive income tax system.

---

As long as everybody doesn't have deductions and pays the same rate, we are good. Everyone should pay X from the first to last dollar that they make. Voters can decide on what number is X.

AggieShanks said:

---

I notice a lot of discussions get shot down as anyone that doesn't fall into the groupthink down here are trolls. I'm generally curious if they are any left leaning people on the politics board?

---

Schneider Electric said:

---

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Hornbeck said:

---

I am all for a flat tax, but you guys are coming way close to a Libertarian view.

---

Different rates for different incomes. Flat tax would never work. A better solution is a "use tax". Spend more pay more. If I want a BMW and can afford it and the use tax, go for it. With an absolute flat tax, there will still be many not paying anything and some paying too little. Create 2-3 brackets and I think you have a solid point.

---

So you want to bring back the disastrous Luxury Tax passed in 1991?

It was a true disaster then. What makes you think it wouldn't be a true disaster (or worse) the second time around?

---

People that trash flat taxes are just interested in punishing people for being successful because they know they can't achieve the financial success of those they want the government to rob in the name of fairness.

---

What are you smoking? I'd like to see a good flat tax.

The Luxury Tax was not a flat tax by any means. It was a use tax on certain products that nearly destroyed the industry for those products in the US. Instead of bringing in the couple of billion dollars or so it promised to bring in the first year, it destroyed so much business and drove so many sales overseas that it instead brought in something like $17 million. If it had not been quickly repealed after that first year, it would have driven many businesses out of the US per year.

If you want to apply that to all industries, introduce a federal use tax and you will get your wish.

Are you going to defend his crazy talking points?

nu awlins ag said:

---

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Hornbeck said:

---

I am all for a flat tax, but you guys are coming way close to a Libertarian view.

---

Different rates for different incomes. Flat tax would never work. A better solution is a "use tax". Spend more pay more. If I want a BMW and can afford it and the use tax, go for it. With an absolute flat tax, there will still be many not paying anything and some paying too little. Create 2-3 brackets and I think you have a solid point.

---

So you want to bring back the disastrous Luxury Tax passed in 1991?

It was a true disaster then. What makes you think it wouldn't be a true disaster (or worse) the second time around?

---

.

I never said that. You can't have one flat tax for everyone, don't be obtuse. You have to have 2 maybe 3 for every one. Do the math yourself and get back to me. Seriously…

---

Wait a minute. You say flat tax and then you say use tax. Are you so confused that you don't know just how different they are?

Absolutely true. They scream Rich don't pay fair share but they absolutely do. They pay more. It's the poor that are the freeloaders when it comes to income tax.

eric76 said:

---

Schneider Electric said:

---

eric76 said:

---

nu awlins ag said:

---

Hornbeck said:

---

I am all for a flat tax, but you guys are coming way close to a Libertarian view.

---

Different rates for different incomes. Flat tax would never work. A better solution is a "use tax". Spend more pay more. If I want a BMW and can afford it and the use tax, go for it. With an absolute flat tax, there will still be many not paying anything and some paying too little. Create 2-3 brackets and I think you have a solid point.

---

So you want to bring back the disastrous Luxury Tax passed in 1991?

It was a true disaster then. What makes you think it wouldn't be a true disaster (or worse) the second time around?

---

People that trash flat taxes are just interested in punishing people for being successful because they know they can't achieve the financial success of those they want the government to rob in the name of fairness.

---

What are you smoking? I'd like to see a good flat tax.

The Luxury Tax was not a flat tax by any means. It was a use tax on certain products that nearly destroyed the industry for those products in the US. Instead of bringing in the couple of billion dollars or so it promised to bring in the first year, it destroyed so much business and drove so many sales overseas that it instead brought in something like $17 million. If it had not been quickly repealed after that first year, it would have driven many businesses out of the US per year.

If you want to apply that to all industries, introduce a federal use tax and you will get your wish.

---

It put the entire US yacht building industry out of business...That was awesome.

The yachting industry barely survived.

The Luxury tax made it cheaper to buy a yacht overseas from an overseas building, storing it outside the US for the required 6 months or so, and then bring it back. So much for the yacht builders. And those selling the yachts.

It also had a drastic impact on industries that provided parts to be used on the yachts.

That resulted in tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of workers looking for new jobs.

eric76 said:

---

The yachting industry barely survived.

The Luxury tax made it cheaper to buy a yacht overseas from an overseas building, storing it outside the US for the required 6 months or so, and then bring it back. So much for the yacht builders. And those selling the yachts.

It also had a drastic impact on industries that provided parts to be used on the yachts.

That resulted in tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of workers looking for new jobs.

---

I'm sure they learned to code.

Some years ago (mid to late 1970s, I think), Milton Friedman pushed for the US to switch to a Negative Income Tax to REPLACE the welfare system in this country. He quickly changed his tune when it became clear that Congress wanted to KEEP welfare system and add the Negative the Negative Income Tax on top of it.

So instead of doing something would help to reduce the welfare rolls, we abandoned it in favor of something to keep welfare as it is.