Gator92 said:

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I spent most of today chasing electrical gremlins in my son's 96 F150. It has 200K. Cleaned the battery cables and a bunch of grounds. Has an aftermarket alarm w/ starter interruption. Turns out the ground on the alarm needed grounding.

Thing is almost 30 y/o and back on the road.

Try to tell me that buying an EV is better for the environment than keeping this old girl on the road...

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Owner of a '00 Celica that I bought new. Non-consumable parts replaced so far are:
Hatch struts (2x)
Thermostat
The little motor inside two power door lock actuators

The environmental cost of the thing is long since paid for, and it's still loads of fun to drive. Not sure what an EV will look like at 24 years old but probably nowhere near as good as this has held up.

Jack Squat 83 said:

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Bat signal must be powered by a dead EV battery today.

I predict some dude will start buying these things for 25 cents on the dollar, and hold them until the Chinese come out with the Harbor Freight version of batteries for $6-7000 and then roll them for a nice profit. Government safety standards will go out the window since 'green!'. They'll be fine for a couple years and then start burning down houses, etc.

If a buck can be made…..just wait.

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LS swap all the things!

The Fife said:

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Jack Squat 83 said:

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Bat signal must be powered by a dead EV battery today.

I predict some dude will start buying these things for 25 cents on the dollar, and hold them until the Chinese come out with the Harbor Freight version of batteries for $6-7000 and then roll them for a nice profit. Government safety standards will go out the window since 'green!'. They'll be fine for a couple years and then start burning down houses, etc.

If a buck can be made…..just wait.

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LS swap all the things!

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Dodge will go...

Can we put a Hellcat in that 2014 Model S???

Jack Squat 83 said:

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Bat signal must be powered by a dead EV battery today.

I predict some dude will start buying these things for 25 cents on the dollar, and hold them until the Chinese come out with the Harbor Freight version of batteries for $6-7000 and then roll them for a nice profit. Government safety standards will go out the window since 'green!'. They'll be fine for a couple years and then start burning down houses, etc.

If a buck can be made…..just wait.

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They kinda do this in Eastern Europe already. We had a story on the big thread how they'll scoop up totaled Teslas over here on the cheap, slap some paint on them and resell in Ukraine and elsewhere.

Elon musk may be the greatest scammer ever.

Old May Banker said:

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The EV market will crash... not a matter of "if," but when.

There's no appetite for spending $25k to replace batteries on used vehicles.

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The public is also worried that EV owners will be fined and given a suspended sentence if Trump is elected.

WolfCall said:

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Old May Banker said:

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The EV market will crash... not a matter of "if," but when.

There's no appetite for spending $25k to replace batteries on used vehicles.

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The public is also worried that EV owners will be fined and given a suspended sentence if Trump is elected.

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Sadly, this post doesn't even stand out as being particularly unhinged compared to the rest of the thread.

Ag with kids said:

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GAC06 said:

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What is the failure rate of batteries? Merely stating the length of the warranty and the possible cost of replacement doesn't mean much. ICE vehicles have a warranty that expires and engines and transmissions are also expensive. It doesn't mean all these vehicles explode when they're out of warranty.

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No...but, the likelihood of failure goes way up. Batteries DO have a lifetime.

It's one thing to buy an ICE car that is 10 years old with 150K miles on it and know you'll have to replace the alternator and may the power steering pump in a few years. That will cost 5% of what you're paying for the vehicle.

It's another to know you'll probably have to replace the battery that will cost 75% of the vehicle.

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Yes batteries will eventually fail. So will engines, transmissions, etc. My dad's Yukon just but the dust at 270k because it's not worth the cost to fix.

Is there an epidemic of batteries failing? If there was, wouldn't they lead with that?

Or is there a glut of crappy "first try" EV's hitting the market largely because the government made manufacturers that suck at making EV's make EV's? I sure wouldn't buy a used GM or Ford EV. They sucked when they were new.

Well eventually there will be more used batteries available as the market grows and stabilizes. When someone's engine or transmission dies in a 150,000 mile car, they aren't typically buying a new one.

But that's not the point. It's a clickbait article that offered nothing to support the claim that batteries are dying and it's hurting used EV prices. What's hurt them is the crappy EV's government interference resulted in, and Tesla dropping prices while continually improving their vehicles.

Oh, and the EV subsidy started when? 2022? Could that affect the used market a couple years down the road?

kb2001 said:

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sanangelo said:

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DrEvazanPhD said:

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sanangelo said:

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Here are 8-year-old Teslas. Still holding value.

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Is there a way to see how many have actually sold?

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I just looked on Car Gurus to see if the advertising aligns with the contents of the OP's quoted article. Apparently not. I have no idea what is selling or not selling. Hertz just dumped all of their EVs so I guess we can keep count of the EVs on sale at the Hertz used car website.

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Those prices are 25-30% of what they cost new. That's not what I consider holding value. For comparison, my 2015 ICE SUV is valued at about 60% of what it cost me new.

Looks like your searches proved the article to be accurate more than anything. Buy one of those, plus another $20k for a battery replacement, and it seems to compare pretty well.

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But I was looking for a $500 beater! That's what I expected, especially if the battery dies in 10 years.

Have no doubt that used EV prices are lower in part due to fears of battery failures, the question is whether those fears are justified.

It doesn't seem like they are based upon preliminary information, but the market will have to bear that out. There's a guy in Germany with 1,000,000 miles on his Model S. He's on his 4th battery with one of the batteries being a refurbished battery that was replaced before failure, meaning he's averaging more than 250,000 miles per pack.

If that's the norm the average driver is going to take 17 years to expend a battery, battery prices have fallen by 90% in the last 10, with an expected further fall of another 45% by the end of the decade. What do the batteries of 17 years from now look like and how much will they cost. Probably better and cheaper than current batteries.

Screenshotted every mention of a near or above 200,000 mile vehicle on the Tesla High Mileage Club on Facebook I found in 15 minutes of scrolling. All noted they were on the original battery with the peak mileage being 500,000 miles (800,000 km)

Charpie said:

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Part of the issue with the value of Teslas is how much the new ones don't cost. Elon drove the price of the newer ones down. The market is flooded with them now.

I don't get the obsession with electric vehicles.

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Elon drove the price by managing the age old practice of being able to more closely satisfy demand with supply. Basically people buying Teslas were paying a lack of Supply premium not a product premium. Essentially a "limited edition" fee of sorts. So of course that value goes away once the small market of people looking for an electric car is satisfied.

How a market is "flooded" when it has such a small foot print and nearly non-existent outside of major urban areas and their surrounding suburbs says alot about how big that market is.

sanangelo said:

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kb2001 said:

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sanangelo said:

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DrEvazanPhD said:

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sanangelo said:

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Here are 8-year-old Teslas. Still holding value.

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Is there a way to see how many have actually sold?

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I just looked on Car Gurus to see if the advertising aligns with the contents of the OP's quoted article. Apparently not. I have no idea what is selling or not selling. Hertz just dumped all of their EVs so I guess we can keep count of the EVs on sale at the Hertz used car website.

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Those prices are 25-30% of what they cost new. That's not what I consider holding value. For comparison, my 2015 ICE SUV is valued at about 60% of what it cost me new.

Looks like your searches proved the article to be accurate more than anything. Buy one of those, plus another $20k for a battery replacement, and it seems to compare pretty well.

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But I was looking for a $500 beater! That's what I expected, especially if the battery dies in 10 years.

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$500 beaters are sold by dealers and wouldn't go on a website - they'd head straight to auction and be on a tote-the-note lot after that.

Logos Stick said:

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well, there you have it folks....

HPH has some screenshots!

Move along now.

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Just when you thought his walls of text were a tad much, he's now adding pictures!!!

sanangelo said:

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Used Teslas seem pretty pricey on Car Gurus.

I thought I could get a deal when I read this thread.

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Asking price is different than actual sales price. Knock 10-15% off and that is what you could buy it for. Still a bad deal considering battery issues.

A bunch of FUD on battery life, with scant evidence backing it up. At this would be for batteries generations ago, in which the batteries themselves, as well as the software managing them has gotten quite a bit better.

Logos Stick said:

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well, there you have it folks....

HPH has some screenshots!

Move along now.

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Better than a blog extrapolating a presumed failure based upon a warranty agreement. I also have data from Tesla's fleet, but it's provided by Tesla, and commentary from Nissan's CEO stating that their Nissan Leaf batteries failed at a lower rate than anticipated.

You have a blog. I feel retro.

There also probably aren't that many around San Angelo, because most folks there tend to have a few long distance drives a year that are impractical/much less convenient for EV's, imho (more than the typical urban/suburban American).

One of my relatives owned a very slightly used Nissan Leaf in greater Atlanta, GA. The Leaf had been shortly owned by a company that was taken over by another. She had free EV charging stations at her work and charged it at home too. Said it cost about $20 more in electric bills monthly. It was never really low on its charge ever. She said commute in was a lot of "stop" over little "go"! She burnt no charge at stop, other than heater in winter.
In limited situations the EV is "Ok"!

A real economic analysis of the cost of replacing the batteries after 10 years would include the cost savings of operating an EV for that period of time. How much does gas vs electricity cost? Oil changes and other drivetrain maintenance that isn't required for an EV. I haven't even pretended to do that analysis so I won't comment either way. The accurate thing to do would be to compare 10 years of ownership of a Tesla with a comparable ICE sedan whatever the at vehicle is.

Extremely rough math says an ICE car getting 25 MPG with $3 gas is going to cost $150/ just for gas. I've seen people on here say they spend $20/month on electricity for their Tesla so let's raise that to $25. The fuel delta is this $125/month of $15k over a 10 year span. Add in $300/year in oil changes and you're at $18k for an ICE vehicle for items that don't exist in an EV which seems awfully comparable to the cost of the new batteries. This is all based on what I think is an average of 15k miles/year by the way. It doesn't include the fact that every vehicle I've ever owned needed a transmission right around 150k miles, by the way.

Point is I'm thinking the costs are similar over the life of the vehicle.

Ag with kids said:

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sanangelo said:

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Used Teslas seem pretty pricey on Car Gurus.

I thought I could get a deal when I read this thread.

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That 2019 Model 3 in the top right retailed for $56190 in 2019...

To further that example, in 2019 a Dodge Hellcat was $60695 and now retails for around $53000...

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How about we compare something a little more apples to apples.

Like a cadillac sedan to Tesla, or a BMW.

If that's true then lower maintenance cost shouldn't be a selling point for EVs. Also, someone is going to get caught paying for previous owner(s) maintenance.

I don't see either as a positive selling point.

nortex97 said:

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In before "But the batteries are guaranteed for 8 years."

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I agree. I'm not sure why that would ever be a selling point. Unless people always buy a new car every 3-5 years this is just dumb. Who's going to buy a used car that's only going to last 3 more years before its just dead?

At least with ICB, alot of them will run for 150K without any repairs that cost more than buying a new vehicle and it would still hold some resale value.

EV's are a fun novelty still. Until you can replace the batteries cheaply, it will remain that.