I will have to take some time to respond to your walls of text.

I'm currently pretty busy writing a couple documents on design/certification and liability of "driverless" vehicles. And I'm 100% serious on that. That's what's amusing me so much about this thread.

Embry-Riddle UNSY 503, if you want to go check up on it.

hph6203 said:

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How are you defining "functionality?" It's possible your definition and mine are not the same thing. That is the crux of this disagreement.

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Since I don't have time to go through all of your posts, I'll at least answer this question...

Here's a quick primer from the SAE J3016 (you can download it free from ANSI: https://webstore.ansi.org/standards/sae/sae30162018).

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This SAE Recommended Practice describes motor vehicle driving automation systems that perform part or all of the dynamic driving task (DDT) on a sustained basis. It provides a taxonomy with detailed definitions for six levels of driving automation, ranging from no driving automation (level 0) to full driving automation (level 5), in the context of motor vehicles (hereafter also referred to as "vehicle" or "vehicles") and their operation on roadways. These level definitions, along with additional supporting terms and definitions provided herein, can be used to describe the full range of driving automation features equipped on motor vehicles in a functionally consistent and coherent manner. "On-road" refers to publicly accessible roadways (including parking areas and private campuses that permit public access) that collectively serve users of vehicles of all classes and driving automation levels (including no driving automation), as well as motorcyclists, pedal cyclists, and pedestrians.

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The levels apply to the driving automation feature(s) that are engaged in any given instance of on-road operation of an equipped vehicle. As such, although a given vehicle may be equipped with a driving automation system that is capable of delivering multiple driving automation features that perform at different levels, the level of driving automation exhibited in any given instance is determined by the feature(s) that are engaged.

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Quote:

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5. LEVELS OR CATEGORIES OF DRIVING AUTOMATION

As discussed above, the level of driving automation is based on the functionality of the driving automation system, as determined by an allocation of roles in DDT and DDT fallback performance between that system and the (human) user (if any).

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I'll only post a little on Level 2 and 3 since that's what we've been discussing.

(For informational purposes: object and event detection and response (OEDR))

Quote:

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5.3 LEVEL or CATEGORY 2 - PARTIAL DRIVING AUTOMATION

The sustained and ODD-specific execution by a driving automation system of both the lateral and longitudinal vehicle motion control subtasks of the DDT with the expectation that the driver completes the OEDR subtask and supervises the driving automation system.

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Quote:

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5.4 LEVEL or CATEGORY 3 - CONDITIONAL DRIVING AUTOMATION

The sustained and ODD-specific performance by an ADS of the entire DDT with the expectation that the DDT fallback-ready user is receptive to ADS-issued requests to intervene, as well as to DDT performance-relevant system failures in other vehicle systems, and will respond appropriately

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THAT is how the functionality is defined.

Note that there is no mention of any liability anywhere in there.

Medaggie said:

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I have driven te mercedes supposed Level 3. Only Highway, its essentially lane assist.

I have had a Tesla FSD when it first came out. I had high hopes when it was first turned on via the Beta Version. It was quite disappointment and rarely used it even when no one was around me on the highway. Phantom stops, odd lane changes.

Fast forward 2 years and FSD on the highway is close if not better than the average driver. I drive on the highway 90% with FSD on.

City still needs some work but much improved.

Anyone who thinks that Mercedes level 3 is better than Tesla Level 2, then they are uninformed or just lying. This makes these levels of Autonomy categroies invalid

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While I love seeing new tech come out, this does concern me a bit.

I'm a member of the Apple Beta Software Program so I can get beta updates on my Macs, iPhone, and watch early and test them out. It's kinda cool, but you do see the bugs up front and center at times.

Sounds like you saw those on the vehicle...it's one thing if my phone ****s up. But, my car? That not just bad for me, that could be bad for others.

I understand the need for testing (I do that for a living) but do they require the owners to undergo any kind of training prior to downloading it? I honestly don't know.

If not, it seems very risky (hey, here's hph's liability that he loves so much). First, you can have operators that don't fully understand the system and therefore might not do what is necessary in the event of an incident. Second, you have operators that may be incapable of giving a proper AAR of any incidents that occur.

BTW, just because you don't understand what the levels mean doesn't mean they're invalid.

The levels define functionality (I've given a taste up above) and make no qualification of "good", "bad", or "better".

I DO look forward to the tech improving and becoming more ubiquitous, though. Autonomy is actually a large part of my job, so I'm a HUGE proponent of it.

FWIW, all those terms that those companies use are just marketing buzzwords...Autopilot, FSD, DrivePilot...Sound great but don't really tell you what you're actually getting.

Teslag said:

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Medaggie said:

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I have driven te mercedes supposed Level 3. Only Highway, its essentially lane assist.

I have had a Tesla FSD when it first came out. I had high hopes when it was first turned on via the Beta Version. It was quite disappointment and rarely used it even when no one was around me on the highway. Phantom stops, odd lane changes.

Fast forward 2 years and FSD on the highway is close if not better than the average driver. I drive on the highway 90% with FSD on.

City still needs some work but much improved.

Anyone who thinks that Mercedes level 3 is better than Tesla Level 2, then they are uninformed or just lying. This makes these levels of Autonomy categroies invalid

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Same. I can't imagine sitting in traffic now without Autopilot.

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They can take my manual transmission when they pry it from my cold, dead feet.

These threads just keep tempting me to buy a TRX.

When I read functionality, I read utility/tasks the vehicle can complete rather than level of autonomy and that's the source of the confusion. I never intended to mean that Tesla operated at level 3, rather that they could if they removed the driver attention requirement and submitted for approval because their system is robust enough to match the error rate/complete the tasks that Drive Pilot completes. They don't intend to, because of the exposure to lawsuits/responsibility for potential damages. Tesla has two orders of magnitude (at least) more vehicles on the road with FSD capability than Mercedes has vehicles with Drive Pilot capabilities. If they assume liability like Mercedes has they would be exposed to substantially more costs while having similar levels of profitability as a business. The exposure relative to the business is not worth it. That's what I mean by liability.

Even so, the reality of Mercedes deployment is that most drivers won't ever use it. In part because it costs $2500, replaces a system that can already do those driving tasks and the only marginal benefit is removal of attention in those narrow circumstances and if the environment deviates from those circumstances the driver has to resume attention. It is a marketing ploy that allows them to show they have advanced driver assistance, and the average consumer does not know the difference between level 2 and 3 other than 3 is higher than 2. And they do have advanced driver assistance, but the consumer doesn't have to pay extra for it as their Intelligent Drive system does more tasks with driver attention than Drive Pilot does without.

Ag with kids said:

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Teslag said:

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Medaggie said:

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I have driven te mercedes supposed Level 3. Only Highway, its essentially lane assist.

I have had a Tesla FSD when it first came out. I had high hopes when it was first turned on via the Beta Version. It was quite disappointment and rarely used it even when no one was around me on the highway. Phantom stops, odd lane changes.

Fast forward 2 years and FSD on the highway is close if not better than the average driver. I drive on the highway 90% with FSD on.

City still needs some work but much improved.

Anyone who thinks that Mercedes level 3 is better than Tesla Level 2, then they are uninformed or just lying. This makes these levels of Autonomy categroies invalid

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Same. I can't imagine sitting in traffic now without Autopilot.

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They can take my manual transmission when they pry it from my cold, dead feet.

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as a stick driver, I'll outlive all of those idiots sleeping in their driver seat.

TexasRebel said:

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Ag with kids said:

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Teslag said:

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Medaggie said:

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I have driven te mercedes supposed Level 3. Only Highway, its essentially lane assist.

I have had a Tesla FSD when it first came out. I had high hopes when it was first turned on via the Beta Version. It was quite disappointment and rarely used it even when no one was around me on the highway. Phantom stops, odd lane changes.

Fast forward 2 years and FSD on the highway is close if not better than the average driver. I drive on the highway 90% with FSD on.

City still needs some work but much improved.

Anyone who thinks that Mercedes level 3 is better than Tesla Level 2, then they are uninformed or just lying. This makes these levels of Autonomy categroies invalid

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Same. I can't imagine sitting in traffic now without Autopilot.

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They can take my manual transmission when they pry it from my cold, dead feet.

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as a stick driver, I'll outlive all of those idiots sleeping in their driver seat.

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I own 2 vehicles (not including the GFs).

A 2 dr Jeep JL Rubicon w/6 speed.

A Dodge Challenger Scat Pack w/6 speed.

It's no fun when you're not shifting. I even looked at a Hellcat, but they only come in auto, so I stepped down.

hph6203 said:

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When I read functionality, I read utility/tasks the vehicle can complete rather than level of autonomy and that's the source of the confusion. I never intended to mean that Tesla operated at level 3, rather that they could if they removed the driver attention requirement and submitted for approval because their system is robust enough to match the error rate/complete the tasks that Drive Pilot completes. They don't intend to, because of the exposure to lawsuits/responsibility for potential damages. Tesla has two orders of magnitude (at least) more vehicles on the road with FSD capability than Mercedes has vehicles with Drive Pilot capabilities. If they assume liability like Mercedes has they would be exposed to substantially more costs while having similar levels of profitability as a business. The exposure relative to the business is not worth it. That's what I mean by liability.

Even so, the reality of Mercedes deployment is that most drivers won't ever use it. In part because it costs $2500, replaces a system that can already do those driving tasks and the only marginal benefit is removal of attention in those narrow circumstances and if the environment deviates from those circumstances the driver has to resume attention. It is a marketing ploy that allows them to show they have advanced driver assistance, and the average consumer does not know the difference between level 2 and 3 other than 3 is higher than 2. And they do have advanced driver assistance, but the consumer doesn't have to pay extra for it as their Intelligent Drive system does more tasks with driver attention than Drive Pilot does without.

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Again...I'll have to get back to this tomorrow or Wednesday.

Your posts take more time to respond to and I want to get to the other 2 first.

BREAKING: Tesla in a new advertisement at their San Diego store says the Cybertruck has an SMC (sheet molded composite) bed, 11,000lb tow rating, and 2,500lb payload rating.

"Designed to be the world's toughest truck." https://t.co/69bTunM3RF pic.twitter.com/iJ6LRJ8Adx

— Sawyer Merritt (@SawyerMerritt) November 20, 2023

Yeah.

My 2008 F-250 XL reg cab, std box has better numbers.

At this point I have three 6-speeds (F250, Mustang, Fat Bob) and a (C10) TH-350 that's destined to be replaced by a ZF6.

You can ignore them. I don't care at this point. A lot of it is misunderstanding in terminology usage. I don't care about the levels, because they are not important to the consumer experience which is what I am primarily concerned about. I will admit to using imprecise language that contributed to misunderstandings. Tesla operates at level 2.

The only point I was trying to make was that FSD operates in more environments and can recognize more aspects of driving than Drive Pilot, and that they require the driver to pay attention because telling a driver they don't have to increases exposure to lawsuits and damages. They have demonstrated that the attentiveness requirement, generally, shields them from those lawsuits, removing the attention may remove that shield.

The vehicle they're targeting with its capabilities is the F-150, which those specs are comparable to. There was a story a week or so ago that originated with Jim Cramer that the payload capacity of the Cybertruck was less than a Ford Maverick. Not sure if that was posted on this thread or another one of the threads.

I'd put it at less than a Ranchero.

Look at how the rear end is squatted down in this pic and front end is lifted up with this ATV, which is relatively light compared to many loads.. Unless it has some sort of air/hydraulic leveling for loading causing it to lower, this thing is way overloaded and the back wheels are going to bottom out every time it hits a bump in the road, not to mention the wonky steering. Looks like a truck with ElCamino suspension.

Thing looks like something they plucked out of an early battletech TRO

It has adaptive air suspension that allows the vehicle to be raised or lowered 4" from its default ride height. That photo is from the announcement/pre-order photos from 2019. The design of the truck has since changed (that ramp has seemingly been removed, we will see next week) they discussed "load mode" at the announcement where the front end is raised and back end is lowered. Whether that feature is making it into production who knows. Again, next week. The adaptive air suspension is definitely making it to production as it has been demonstrated on the production test vehicles.

Speaking of steering, it also has rear wheel steering.



You can see the adjustable suspension settings in the below photos.

Some new Tesla Cybertruck pics @WholeMarsBlog @ray4tesla @MatthewDR pic.twitter.com/3QURx8PT80

— YYDS (@ya78756632) November 21, 2023

Better view of the size of the bed.

Step into my office 😈 Cybertruck bed lighting is insanely cool!
(IG teslacybert) pic.twitter.com/2YTzZY1wxG

— Greggertruck (@greggertruck) November 16, 2023

Based on how many people have a strong opportunity noon on this I bet they sell as many as they can produce.

Ag87H2O said:

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Look at how the rear end is squatted down in this pic and front end is lifted up with this ATV, which is relatively light compared to many loads.. Unless it has some sort of air/hydraulic leveling for loading causing it to lower, this thing is way overloaded and the back wheels are going to bottom out every time it hits a bump in the road, not to mention the wonky steering. Looks like a truck with ElCamino suspension.

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I wouldn't take too much from that picture since its a several years old concept vehicle.

Don't think that is anywhere near correct. The max tow package for the maverick tops out at 4000 and payload is 1500. The cybertruck has 11000 and 2500.

I like the no wheel well in the CT

Ag87H2O said:

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Look at how the rear end is squatted down in this pic and front end is lifted up with this ATV, which is relatively light compared to many loads.. Unless it has some sort of air/hydraulic leveling for loading causing it to lower, this thing is way overloaded and the back wheels are going to bottom out every time it hits a bump in the road, not to mention the wonky steering. Looks like a truck with ElCamino suspension.

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El Camino is Mexican for "the camino".

hph6203 said:

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It has adaptive air suspension that allows the vehicle to be raised or lowered 4" from its default ride height.

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Cholo mode!?

Nobody makes a good step side anymore.

BigRobSA said:

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Ag87H2O said:

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Look at how the rear end is squatted down in this pic and front end is lifted up with this ATV, which is relatively light compared to many loads.. Unless it has some sort of air/hydraulic leveling for loading causing it to lower, this thing is way overloaded and the back wheels are going to bottom out every time it hits a bump in the road, not to mention the wonky steering. Looks like a truck with ElCamino suspension.

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El Camino is Mexican for "the camino".

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In the 70's some people thought the Gremlin was neat. My dad said it look like a little old lady squatting over a cliff. Only time will tell

Hanrahan said:

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seen a few driving around austin. they are bizarre looking thats for sure, but also kinda cool to look at, but in a not want to own kind of way

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More of a "look how much that guy spent just to compensate" vibe.

Muy said:

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Hanrahan said:

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seen a few driving around austin. they are bizarre looking thats for sure, but also kinda cool to look at, but in a not want to own kind of way

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More of a "look how much that guy spent just to compensate" vibe.

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So it's like the guy driving an F250 that doesn't tow anything? Or a man that buys his wife a Tahoe/Expedition instead of a minivan?

Teslag said:

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Muy said:

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Hanrahan said:

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seen a few driving around austin. they are bizarre looking thats for sure, but also kinda cool to look at, but in a not want to own kind of way

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More of a "look how much that guy spent just to compensate" vibe.

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So it's like the guy driving an F250 that doesn't tow anything? Or a man that buys his wife a Tahoe/Expedition instead of a minivan?

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The former for sure. As a former 2-time minivan owner, replacing them with an SUV was a necessity.

If they don't make it dance to Lowrider, I don't want it.

Quote:

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As a former 2-time minivan owner, replacing them with an SUV was a necessity.

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What were you towing?

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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As a former 2-time minivan owner, replacing them with an SUV was a necessity.

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What were you towing?

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We have a hitch on our Sienna and have towed uhauls plenty of times.

Trust me I understand why the Mercedes is level 3 and Tesla is level 2 but you will never be convinced that Mercedes is nothing compared to Tesla because you sit on top of your high all might soapbox of expertise.

I guess my personal experience just completely is meaningless

Deere and Cat have been level 4 for years.