GAC06 said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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GAC06 said:

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I've only defended the US. If posting online constitutes "defending" then you deserve the order of Lenin

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Posting online = speak or write in favor of

What is so hard about this for you?

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So why are you so prolific in your defense of Russia?

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He always has been. I wrote this poster off as a Russian bot or propagandist a long time ago. At this point, I think he just loves to hear himself type BS. Speaking of keyboard warfare. Maybe he get paid by the post.

You obviously have to define losing and winning here.

Bottom line: Russia gained much more land than they had when this started and Ukraine depleted a lot of their population to contain Russia to what they got.

So the net effect is that Russia "won" regardless of what their ultimate goal was because they ended up with more land and resources while significantly depleting their adversary. That isn't really arguable.

There are all kinds of secondary objectives we could argue from a pros and cons standpoint but Russia attacked and conquered more land that won't be going back to Ukraine.

That's really all there is to it. That sucks for Ukraine but that is the reality.

If you listen to people who are "in the know"

One of the things the west was trying to do was tap into unexploited natural gas in eastern Ukraine and get that piped to Europe and disrupt Russia's ability to sell to Europe.

From that perspective it is a mixed bag.

Russia is gonna get the untapped natural gas.

But the US blew up their pipeline to Europe and now Europe has pledged to buy more of their NG from the US.

So a mixed bag here.

Additionally Russia makes their borders easier to defend, and is extending their access to the black sea by retaining Crimea.

So that's a win for them as well.

All around Russia is accomplishing a fairly large portion of their cultural, defensive, and strategic goals so an overall win for them.

The real losers here are the Ukrainian people who needlessly saw their lives turned upside down because their corrupt leaders were willing to sacrifice their own people to get rich quick in a proxy war on behalf of NATO.

And Ukraine "won" because they still exist with their capital, many of their largest cities, including the port of Odessa, and most importantly a Trump brokered deal that will ensure their survival free of Russia interference for the foreseeable future. And regardless of the hopium here, a future path to NATO.

And Russia "lost" because they are now unquestionably weaker and embarrassed on the world stage. They are a shell of what they were.

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The real losers here are the Ukrainian people

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They consider themselves winners because they remain Ukrainian people instead of becoming Russians.

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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The real losers here are the Ukrainian people

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They consider themselves winners because they remain Ukrainian people instead of becoming Russians.

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Interesting that you feel you speak for Ukrainians even as the Ukrainian soldiers are deserting their own military in droves.

Aside from that, at this point, Russia has more land now than they would have had if Ukraine would have proceeded with negotiations at the outset of the invasion.

So....Ukraine lost more land. Ukraine lost ALOT of their own citizens.

Ukrainian cities are in ruin.

But that's okay.....because they didn't peaceably concede an ethnically Russian territory that they had been committing human rights abuses against immediately at the war's outset.....so moral victory?

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soldiers are deserting their own military in droves.

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Pure Russian propaganda

🇷🇺🇺🇦 Ukraine Update: Signs Russian Attrition are Working

Russian forces have continued encircling Pokrovsk - the image below indicates progress from December 1-15 2024.

The red line indicates where the line of contact was as of December 1.

Russian gains continue along the… pic.twitter.com/t9yqwBrYbF

— Brian Berletic (@BrianJBerletic) December 15, 2024

Teslag said:

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soldiers are deserting their own military in droves.

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Pure Russian propaganda

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Didn't know Russia had this kind of power. They have been playing the long game. Who knew Russia controlled so many news outlets in America and Ukraine.

https://apnews.com/article/deserters-awol-ukraine-russia-war-def676562552d42bc5d593363c9e5ea0

https://www.euronews.com/2024/11/30/tens-of-thousands-of-soldiers-have-deserted-from-ukraines-army

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-desertion-russia-war-1993760

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/depleted-by-war-ukraine-gives-absconding-soldiers-second-chance-2024-12-04/

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/09/08/europe/ukraine-military-morale-desertion-intl-cmd/index.html

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/39622

Psycho Bunny said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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soldiers are deserting their own military in droves.

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Pure Russian propaganda

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Didn't know Russia had this kind of power. They have been playing the long game. Who knew Russia controlled so many news outlets in America and Ukraine.

https://apnews.com/article/deserters-awol-ukraine-russia-war-def676562552d42bc5d593363c9e5ea0

https://www.euronews.com/2024/11/30/tens-of-thousands-of-soldiers-have-deserted-from-ukraines-army

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-desertion-russia-war-1993760

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/depleted-by-war-ukraine-gives-absconding-soldiers-second-chance-2024-12-04/

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/09/08/europe/ukraine-military-morale-desertion-intl-cmd/index.html

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/39622

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Not a single one of these says it's "in droves" or anything similar.

And it's pretty pathetic the if Ukrainians are and Russia can only advance in tiny areas in zoomed in maps.

And one of your links even describes entire units now being raised because so many Ukrainians are returning from awol status.

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"Our aim is to give every soldier the opportunity to come back into the fold and realise his potential," the post announced. In the first two days, the brigade said, over a hundred applications came in.
"There was a tsunami of applications; so many that we still aren't able to process them all before new ones come in," Viacheslav Smirnov, the 47th's head of recruitment, said two weeks after the announcement.

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nortex97 said:

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🇷🇺🇺🇦 Ukraine Update: Signs Russian Attrition are Working

Russian forces have continued encircling Pokrovsk - the image below indicates progress from December 1-15 2024.

The red line indicates where the line of contact was as of December 1.

Russian gains continue along the… pic.twitter.com/t9yqwBrYbF

— Brian Berletic (@BrianJBerletic) December 15, 2024

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For those following along at home, Pokrovsk is about about 15 miles from Adviika, the city Russia took a year ago this time when the war was declared to be over in two weeks by this same poster.

15 miles in a year of fighting. That's the power of a zoomed in map. For reference, Pokrovsk is hundreds of miles from Kiev.

Consummate Pro-Kiev regime folks seem to have curtailed their enthusiasm.

Just to add, there’s no doubt that limited and delayed aid, along with indecisiveness, played a significant role in this. However, if the war ends under very unfavorable conditions, simply blaming Biden won’t fix the situation.

But internal changes still can

— Tatarigami_UA (@Tatarigami_UA) December 15, 2024

Teslag said:

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Psycho Bunny said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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soldiers are deserting their own military in droves.

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Pure Russian propaganda

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Didn't know Russia had this kind of power. They have been playing the long game. Who knew Russia controlled so many news outlets in America and Ukraine.

https://apnews.com/article/deserters-awol-ukraine-russia-war-def676562552d42bc5d593363c9e5ea0

https://www.euronews.com/2024/11/30/tens-of-thousands-of-soldiers-have-deserted-from-ukraines-army

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-desertion-russia-war-1993760

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/depleted-by-war-ukraine-gives-absconding-soldiers-second-chance-2024-12-04/

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/09/08/europe/ukraine-military-morale-desertion-intl-cmd/index.html

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/39622

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Not a single one of these says it's "in droves" or anything similar.

And it's pretty pathetic the if Ukrainians are and Russia can only advance in tiny areas in zoomed in maps.

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Not a single one of these says it's "pure Russian propaganda" or anything similar, either. So he's still more right than wrong, and more right than you.

False

Teslag said:

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False

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Well I think tens of thousands deserting could be considered droves. I also do not think Euro News is Russian propaganda.

Those articles reference the entire period from 2022. That's not a terrible number. Suggesting it's in droves is propaganda, as certain twitter accounts do.

And if Russia can't advance more than 15 miles in a year in one tiny spot on the map with desertions in "droves" they have big problems.

Teslag said:

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Those articles reference the entire period from 2022. That's not a terrible number. Suggesting it's in droves is propaganda, as certain twitter accounts do.

And if Russia can't advance more than 15 miles in a year in one tiny spot on the map with desertions in "droves" they have big problems.

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Not sure what you're reading, maybe you can share. Here's what I found from EuroNews:

"Desertion is starving the Ukrainian army of desperately needed manpower and crippling its battle plans at a crucial time in its war with Russia.
Facing every imaginable shortage, tens of thousands of Ukrainian troops, tired and bereft, have walked away from combat and front-line positions to slide into anonymity, according to soldiers, lawyers and Ukrainian officials. Entire units have abandoned their posts, leaving defensive lines vulnerable and accelerating territorial losses, according to military commanders and soldiers.
Some take medical leave and never return, haunted by the traumas of war and demoralised by bleak prospects for victory. Others clash with commanders and refuse to carry out orders, sometimes in the middle of firefights.
"This problem is critical," said Oleksandr Kovalenko, a Kyiv-based military analyst. "This is the third year of war, and this problem will only grow.""

Bolder portion meets the burden of proof for droves, and again is coming from EuroNews.

An "entire unit" could be a company sized element which could be as few as 60 or so troops.

So not droves.

Again, false.

If things get much worse, Ukraine might have an entire PMC mutiny and march on Kiev

Teslag said:

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Those articles reference the entire period from 2022. That's not a terrible number. Suggesting it's in droves is propaganda, as certain twitter accounts do.

And if Russia can't advance more than 15 miles in a year in one tiny spot on the map with desertions in "droves" they have big problems.

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Let's review how many times you moved the goalposts after i said that soldiera were deserting in droves.

First it was they are not deserting.

Got proved wrong

Then it was Okay there are desertions but not in droves

Got shown that there are tens of thousands of desertions.

Well if you consider tens of thousands droves....sure....but look at how pathetic Russia is if they can only take fifteen miles after tens of thousands deserted!

Sad man.....it's just sad to see you twisted into so many knots because you are so committed to this narrative of stacking Russian bodies at all costs.

Where did I say they weren't deserting?

And tens of thousands since 2022, as your article states, is not an issues, and certainly not "droves" in the present tense. Especially, as your article states, that many of them are returning and forming new units.

Teslag said:

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An "entire unit" could be a company sized element which could be as few as 60 or so troops.

So not droves.

Again, false.

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But we know it is so much more than that:
"More than 100,000 soldiers have been charged under Ukraine's desertion laws since Russia invaded in February 2022, according to the country's General Prosecutor's Office."

And we know its not two years ago:
"Nearly half have gone AWOL in the last year alone, after Kyiv launched an aggressive and controversial mobilisation drive that government officials and military commanders concede has largely failed."

And we know it could be higher:
"It's a staggeringly high number by any measure, as there were an estimated 300,000 Ukrainian soldiers engaged in combat before the mobilisation drive began. And the actual number of deserters may be much higher. One lawmaker with knowledge of military matters estimated it could be as high as 200,000."

And this is quoting EuroNews, not Russian media. So again, you're just plain wrong.

AWOL and desertion are two different things

And there's of "may" and "could be" in your quotes.

So again, tens of thousands, since 2022. Not droves in the present tense. As many were awol and have returned, per his article.

Teslag said:

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AWOL and desertion are two different things

And there's of "may" and "could be" in your quotes.

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There's 1 of each in the last quote where I literally said it."could be" more than 200,000

But either way we've definitely crushed your assertion "it might only be 60 people"

And as usual the proof is in the results. If Ukrainians were deserting in "droves" the Russians should be able to gain more than 15 miles in one tiny area of the front in a year.

They haven't. Why?

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Teslag said:

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AWOL and desertion are two different things

And there's of "may" and "could be" in your quotes.

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There's 1 of each in the last quote where I literally said it."could be" more than 200,000

But either way we've definitely crushed your assertion "it might only be 60 people"

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And could not be.

Where did I say it was only 60? I said a unit can be as low as 60. Using a unit as a source of measurement means nothing.

Teslag said:

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And as usual the proof is in the results. If Ukrainians were deserting in "droves" the Russians should be able to gain more than 15 miles in one tiny area of the front in a year.

They haven't. Why?

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Actually, tonight the proof is western media sources proving you wrong.

If Ukrainians are deserting in droves, how long could they possibly hold out? Weeks, maybe?

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Teslag said:

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And as usual the proof is in the results. If Ukrainians were deserting in "droves" the Russians should be able to gain more than 15 miles in one tiny area of the front in a year.

They haven't. Why?

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Actually, tonight the proof is western media sources proving you wrong.

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False.

GAC06 said:

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If Ukrainians are deserting in droves, how long could they possibly hold out? Weeks, maybe?

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Or two. Maybe. Per that same poster, Russia was also supposed to have taken Odessa by now.

Teslag said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Teslag said:

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And as usual the proof is in the results. If Ukrainians were deserting in "droves" the Russians should be able to gain more than 15 miles in one tiny area of the front in a year.

They haven't. Why?

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Actually, tonight the proof is western media sources proving you wrong.

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False.

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Now you're just harming Ukraine, per actual Ukrainians

" "Being quiet about a huge problem only harms our country," said Serhii Hnezdilov "

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Teslag said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Teslag said:

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And as usual the proof is in the results. If Ukrainians were deserting in "droves" the Russians should be able to gain more than 15 miles in one tiny area of the front in a year.

They haven't. Why?

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Actually, tonight the proof is western media sources proving you wrong.

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False.

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Now you're just harming Ukraine, per actual Ukrainians

" "Being quiet about a huge problem only harms our country," said Serhii Hnezdilov "

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Harming them would be purposely invading their country, murdering and raping them in the street, launching cruise missiles in their homes and power stations to freeze them to death, and killing their sons and husbands because they dare oppose your attempt to subjugate them.

I've never done those things. Nor have I supported those that do. But I know someone who does…

Bro why are you dEfeNdinG uKraIne

Teslag said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Teslag said:

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PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Teslag said:

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And as usual the proof is in the results. If Ukrainians were deserting in "droves" the Russians should be able to gain more than 15 miles in one tiny area of the front in a year.

They haven't. Why?

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Actually, tonight the proof is western media sources proving you wrong.

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False.

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Now you're just harming Ukraine, per actual Ukrainians

" "Being quiet about a huge problem only harms our country," said Serhii Hnezdilov "

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Harming them would be purposely invading their country, murdering and raping them in the street, launching cruise missiles in their homes and power stations to freeze them to death, and killing their sons and husbands because they dare oppose your attempt to subjugate them.

I've never done those things. Nor have I supported those that do. But I know someone who does…

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Not saying I disagree, but the quote from an actual Ukrainian is pretty clear to me. "Being quite about a huge problem only harms our country" and that is exactly what you're doing.