Russia/Ukraine from Another Perspective (Relaunch Part Deux)

529,960 Views | 9446 Replies | Last: 2 hrs ago by nortex97
Ags4DaWin
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The rabid pro-war posters on here who support endless checks written to Ukraine have asked repeatedly why this is a bad thing and how people can be against supporting Ukraine and also not pro Russia.

Here is why:

1) NATO has expanded ever eastward since the Soviet bloc broke up. We pledged not to. This provokes Russia. Additionally there are now NATO countries on Russia's borders.
2) For people who have said the US has not provoked Russia or given it any reasons to be concerned about their security- NATO under W tried to put nuclear capable missile systems in Poland capable of carrying nuclear loads.
3) 2014 Obama and SOROS NGO'S funded disruptors to overthrow Ukraine's government and then sent in officials to hand pick replacements that were proAmerica.
4) At this time Biden is VP and in charge of Ukraine policy. This is when Burisma who had ties to old Russian leadership decided to get in bed with Biden so they could get in with the Biden hand picked government.
5) Trump wanted this investigated and this is one of the big reasons why he was impeached. The dems did not want him uncovering the shady **** going on there or screwing with their new money laundering playground.
6) before this started, Harris and the current administration joked about getting Ukraine to join NATO. Putin made it clear this was a hard line and America pursued it anyway.
7) Ukraine initially wanted to negotiate with Russia as the America/soros led coup in 2014 had alienated a large western region (the donbas region) of ethnic Russians. Rhis region was unstable and wants to join Russia. Putin wanted Ukraine to give this region up and pledge to not join NATO. Ukraine was okay with this until Biden and the West got involved.

I am not proRussia or proPutin but how with this knowledge can you be in favor of continuously cutting checks and support continuing a war with a nuclear power when this war is being fought because 1) dirty American politicans want another ****hole to launder money through 2) we helped instigate this war 3) negotiations would end it quickly and help Ukraine citizens who want to join Russia do that. 4) knowing the events that set off this whole thing were directly orchestrated by George soros.


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Franklin Comes Alive!
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Quiet Ivan

Cornpop stealing your money is a bargain


Arguing against this country fueling war is treason
InfantryAg
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AG
Ags4DaWin said:

I am not proRussia or proPutin but how with this knowledge can you be in favor of continuously cutting checks and support continuing a war with a nuclear power when this war is being fought because 1) dirty American politicans want another ****hole to launder money through 2) we helped instigate this war 3) negotiations would end it quickly and help Ukraine citizens who want to join Russia do that. 4) knowing the events that set off this whole thing were directly orchestrated by George soros.
I haven't heard anyone supporting giving unlimited, unchecked money to the ukrainians.
I haven't heard anyone supporting biden escalating this by the dumbs**t way he's handling this.

This isn't an either/or choice, there are other options or combinations thereof.

I support giving very limited money. (also sending IRS agents over there to conduct audits there, instead of on Americans).

I support givng all the munitions ukrain can expend on killing russians, hopefully over the next ten years or until putin is offed or russia goes bankrupt again.

I also support biden + family being investigated and jailed.

The only good communists are dead communists. And a crippled russia allows us to concentrate on defeating (or at least countering) china.
2%er/New Army
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InfantryAg said:

Ags4DaWin said:

I am not proRussia or proPutin but how with this knowledge can you be in favor of continuously cutting checks and support continuing a war with a nuclear power when this war is being fought because 1) dirty American politicans want another ****hole to launder money through 2) we helped instigate this war 3) negotiations would end it quickly and help Ukraine citizens who want to join Russia do that. 4) knowing the events that set off this whole thing were directly orchestrated by George soros.
I haven't heard anyone supporting giving unlimited, unchecked money to the ukrainians.
I haven't heard anyone supporting biden escalating this by the dumbs**t way he's handling this.

This isn't an either/or choice, there are other options or combinations thereof.

I support giving very limited money. (also sending IRS agents over there to conduct audits there, instead of on Americans).

I support givng all the munitions ukrain can expend on killing russians, hopefully over the next ten years or until putin is offed or russia goes bankrupt again.

I also support biden + family being investigated and jailed.

The only good communists are dead communists. And a crippled russia allows us to concentrate on defeating (or at least countering) china.


Less aid more ammo.

Charlie Wilson's War those commies again. (I know it's not that simple)
Old Army Ghost
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Old Army has gone to hell.
twk
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NATO has never been a threat to Russia. Period. That's a Russian propaganda line pure and simple.

Giving arms to Ukraine was precisely the right thing to do. An unchecked Russia would be a threat to the rest of the old Warsaw Pact countries had Putin succeeded in rolling over Ukraine. Now that we have crippled the Russian military, how long we want to send aid, and how much, is very much a legitimate question. My view is that we should send them enough to give them a chance for a breakthrough this year. After that, it it's going to be a long term struggle, the Europeans need to carry the bulk of the load.
Definitely Not A Cop
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I think both Russia and the US are in the wrong in the situation. Especially if the Nordstream pipeline was completely done by the US without involving the Europeans.

I do find it funny that our leadership is crying and warning China that they better support Russia in exactly the same way we are supporting Ukraine though.
CDUB98
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twk said:

Now that we have crippled the Russian military,


Have we though? While I don't keep up with the war thread here, the headlines I'm reading in the news is that Russia is gaining back ground they lost in East Ukraine.
Señor Chang
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Thank you for the cliff notes. This is the correct way to start a thread.
Urban Ag
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Probably the biggest gripe I have ever had with this board (in reading and posting here for almost two decades) is how anyone that questions or opposes US support for Ukraine is labeled as pro-Putin or pro-Russia, For the record I despise both, always have. Likely always will in what years I have left on this planet.

Russia sucks. But Ukraine is one of the most absolutely corrupt nations on this globe. Mexico level corruption. After the fall of the USSR they sold untold amounts of weapons and munitions to some of the worst regimes and groups out there out their vast stockpiles sitting around. Ukrainians have been in bed with the absolute worst and most corrupt US politicians (hello Bidens) and businesses we have to offer. No one gave a sh** about this country prior to the Russian invasion. And let's be honest, the only reason the American left gives a rat's ass is a continuation of the Russia Russia Russia bullsh** lib narrative against Trump. And Zelynsky was just another eastern Euro trash grifter until it became cool for him to zoom meeting in to film festivals packed with libs.

I genuinely feel for the folks in Ukraine who have had their lives disrupted and destroyed by Putin's madness. I also genuinely feel for the young Russian men, mostly conscripts, who find themselves being slaughtered in a completely immoral military conflict against a people they have absolutely no desire to bring harm to.

The whole thing is a colossal sh** show. The type of thing I truly hoped civilized peoples would be beyond by 2023. Horrible.
twk
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CDUB98 said:

twk said:

Now that we have crippled the Russian military,


Have we though? While I don't keep up with the war thread here, the headlines I'm reading in the news is that Russia is gaining back ground they lost in East Ukraine.
They are gaining small bits of ground at a terrible cost, using WWI tactics. If they were to try this against NATO, they would be obliterated, and everyone knows it, now. That was not the case pre-invasion, as intelligence assessments thought that the Russians had modernized and were a more capable adversary. They have lost most of their modern armor, and shown that their air force is not capable of handling the kind of complex operations that would be required in any contest with NATO.
nortex97
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We should withdraw from Nato, post-haste. Europe is a mess and will be a bigger mess as it dies off and islamizes. There will be a bunch of bloody uprisings/resistance battles, but it's fait is sealed at this point.

The profiteering going on in the exploitation of hundreds of thousands of needless deaths in Ukraine is disgusting. Meanwhile, I'm waiting for the next daily aid package details, yes today. It's been almost 24 hours I believe.
CDUB98
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AG
Interesting. Thanks.
Urban Ag
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"Now" is the key word. You are correct. Pretty much everyone thought this was a one week war and the Ukes would fold.

Russia's air force is not even a factor in this conflict. US/NATO tech is wiping their armor off the battlefield at a fraction of the cost to Russia. They learned early on they can't take the economic hit on their aircraft. As terrible as this whole thing is it is fascinating to watch.
No Spin Ag
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twk said:

NATO has never been a threat to Russia. Period. That's a Russian propaganda line pure and simple.

Giving arms to Ukraine was precisely the right thing to do. An unchecked Russia would be a threat to the rest of the old Warsaw Pact countries had Putin succeeded in rolling over Ukraine. Now that we have crippled the Russian military, how long we want to send aid, and how much, is very much a legitimate question. My view is that we should send them enough to give them a chance for a breakthrough this year. After that, it it's going to be a long term struggle, the Europeans need to carry the bulk of the load.


Agreed all around, and you're right, there is plenty of Russian propaganda to go around, but to see it on F16 just goes to show how well Putin has done to get Russian ideas supported by Americans against their own people and government. Times really have changed
LMCane
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While the OP thinks he is breaking some kind of "news", all of that has been known for years.

so what? NATO is a national security interest of the United States.

Defeating the Russian empire was the MAIN OBJECTIVE of 40 years of American policy. including likely over a trillion dollars in spending.

now we finally have the chance to demolish their military- send them to a second rate country which is unable to threaten it's neighbors or the world. and with NO AMERICAN CASUALTIES

those who want Russia to win are upset over 100 billion to wreck the aggressor Russian military which was the second greatest world power behind the USA-

when the USG just spent TWO TRILLION DOLLARS on @#$@#$ covid!!
Waffledynamics
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AG
FWIW, I don't think any of us are in favor of endless aid to Ukraine because that would mean endless war. We want to see Ukraine armed to defend themselves and push Russia out of all occupied territories and force them to come to grips with their own failures as a nation. Russia and other aggressive actors need to know that the cost is simply not worth it if they think about conquering their neighbors.
Secolobo
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texagbeliever
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Urban Ag said:

Probably the biggest gripe I have ever had with this board (in reading and posting here for almost two decades) is how anyone that questions or opposes US support for Ukraine is labeled as pro-Putin or pro-Russia, For the record I despise both, always have. Likely always will in what years I have left on this planet.

Russia sucks. But Ukraine is one of the most absolutely corrupt nations on this globe. Mexico level corruption. After the fall of the USSR they sold untold amounts of weapons and munitions to some of the worst regimes and groups out there out their vast stockpiles sitting around. Ukrainians have been in bed with the absolute worst and most corrupt US politicians (hello Bidens) and businesses we have to offer. No one gave a sh** about this country prior to the Russian invasion. And let's be honest, the only reason the American left gives a rat's ass is a continuation of the Russia Russia Russia bullsh** lib narrative against Trump. And Zelynsky was just another eastern Euro trash grifter until it became cool for him to zoom meeting in to film festivals packed with libs.

I genuinely feel for the folks in Ukraine who have had their lives disrupted and destroyed by Putin's madness. I also genuinely feel for the young Russian men, mostly conscripts, who find themselves being slaughtered in a completely immoral military conflict against a people they have absolutely no desire to bring harm to.

The whole thing is a colossal sh** show. The type of thing I truly hoped civilized peoples would be beyond by 2023. Horrible.


There are 2 groups quick to use the "putin apolgist" argument. The liberals who have been wrong about nearly every political issue. Then the patriotic Republicans who fail to dissociate American freedoms vs what existed and will exist under a "free" Ukraine.
twk
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No Spin Ag said:

twk said:

NATO has never been a threat to Russia. Period. That's a Russian propaganda line pure and simple.

Giving arms to Ukraine was precisely the right thing to do. An unchecked Russia would be a threat to the rest of the old Warsaw Pact countries had Putin succeeded in rolling over Ukraine. Now that we have crippled the Russian military, how long we want to send aid, and how much, is very much a legitimate question. My view is that we should send them enough to give them a chance for a breakthrough this year. After that, it it's going to be a long term struggle, the Europeans need to carry the bulk of the load.


Agreed all around, and you're right, there is plenty of Russian propaganda to go around, but to see it on F16 just goes to show how well Putin has done to get Russian ideas supported by Americans against their own people and government. Times really have changed
I think some of it is just the inverse of Trump derangement syndrome. If Biden is for it, then it must be wrong. For me, this is an example of a broken clock being correct twice a day. I would give Biden some credit for not cutting and running (although his incremental approach to dishing out aid has probably not been the best move), but he's got a lot to answer for as to why we even got to this point (Afghanistan, approval of Nordstream 2, pre-invasion statements about Russia taking a slice of Ukraine).
aezmvp
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Urban Ag said:

Probably the biggest gripe I have ever had with this board (in reading and posting here for almost two decades) is how anyone that questions or opposes US support for Ukraine is labeled as pro-Putin or pro-Russia, For the record I despise both, always have. Likely always will in what years I have left on this planet.

Russia sucks. But Ukraine is one of the most absolutely corrupt nations on this globe. Mexico level corruption. After the fall of the USSR they sold untold amounts of weapons and munitions to some of the worst regimes and groups out there out their vast stockpiles sitting around. Ukrainians have been in bed with the absolute worst and most corrupt US politicians (hello Bidens) and businesses we have to offer. No one gave a sh** about this country prior to the Russian invasion. And let's be honest, the only reason the American left gives a rat's ass is a continuation of the Russia Russia Russia bullsh** lib narrative against Trump. And Zelynsky was just another eastern Euro trash grifter until it became cool for him to zoom meeting in to film festivals packed with libs.

I genuinely feel for the folks in Ukraine who have had their lives disrupted and destroyed by Putin's madness. I also genuinely feel for the young Russian men, mostly conscripts, who find themselves being slaughtered in a completely immoral military conflict against a people they have absolutely no desire to bring harm to.

The whole thing is a colossal sh** show. The type of thing I truly hoped civilized peoples would be beyond by 2023. Horrible.
There is a big difference between Ukraine in 2014 and Ukraine in 2023. Is there still a ton of corruption? Yup. Worse than most of Africa? No. Worse than the US? Probably.

Now historically a lot of people will also conflate a lot the port of Odessa and the Ukraine as a whole. Odessa is a crazy smuggling town and Moldova/Transnistria also did a TON of smuggling of arms and such through Odessa.

The war has been going on barely a year, this will probably go on for at least another year. Peer/near peer conflicts are incredibly expensive. The modern world/the West hasn't really experienced this since Korea. Vietnam was a big conflict but not peer/near peer. Korea was also riding on the back of post WWII supply.

Everyone knows this is a complete **** show. I think at this point we need to avoid putting in a ton more in arms. Ammunition is a different matter. I would use this to push our production up because we will likely need to build out our capacity and production for China. Hopefully it's a sunk cost we never need, but I don't think that's realistic.
FIDO95
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AG


This is the most informative conversation I've ever seen on the conflict. Working so I don't have time to post cliff notes for the TLDW crowd. If you want to understand the conflict, watch the video. This war was/is not avoidable. NATO and Nazis are just convenient excuses.

What we should do about it is an important conversation that we need to have and I don't know the right answer for that.

What we shouldn't do is blame, as Kotin put it, "the victim for being raped because she dressed in a provocative way". Ukraine is a corrupt place; So is most of the world. But that doesn't give Russia the right to claim land and kill hundreds of thousands over a concocted excuse. If you think Russia will stop at Ukraine, you are not a student of history.
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TxTarpon
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Quote:

1) dirty American politicans want another ****hole to launder money through
That is what liberals said in 2001, 1990, and 1968.
Quote:

2) we helped instigate this war
We did not invade Russia. The Ukraine did not invade Russia. This is not a Ukrainian army operating in Russia killing people, destroying cities and capturing territory. Libs cried that that US policy in the middle east instigated 9/11. No, radical muz-zies hate us and want us dead. That is on them, not us. Russian invaded Ukraine for a warm water port in 2014, the west was quiet, he wanted more. If Trump was in office, this would not be happening.
Quote:

3) negotiations would end it quickly and help Ukraine citizens who want to join Russia do that.
The only people running to Russia for freedom are people running from their crimes in the west.
There are not mass refugees desperately trying to get into Russia. This was also the case during the Soviet Union days. As Reagan said "They put up walls to keep people in."
Quote:

4) knowing the events that set off this whole thing were directly orchestrated by George soros.
Yeah, one guy did this. And the CEO of P&G was a satanist in the 1980s. I have a bridge for sale, cheap.


Why does it seem the Ukrainians are fighting hard than the Afghans?
We dropped a Trillion debt dollars into Afghanistan.
Sadly Trump will never get the credit for approaching that mess with a sober mind.

Why is the Wagner Group exempt from criticism for their actions in Ukraine?
Murder, rape, torture on women and children is all good, right?

Stalin said "There is quality in quantity". The communist play book of throwing massive numbers of bodies has not overrun the Ukraine yet. Come on now, those 1961 tanks are still great, right? His solders don't want to fight, hard to win when your team does not want to be there.

NATO is seeing how bad Russia's post-soviet structure and assets are. They are doing it without their/our soldiers dying. Putin is a criminal dictator who can only threaten to nuke. He recently whacked (allegedly) the medical doctor that delivered his recent mistress' love child. Hard to do coke and bed chicks in a post nuke MadMax world. His status quo is more comfortable.

We have seen the outdated, poor quality of their stuff. He could push the nuclear launch button and half his assets probably would not work thanks to garbage maintenance since the hammer and sickle days. Russia does not have an economy to ramp arms up like they did during the soviet days so when their assets are gone, their replenishment rate is a pittance of what it used to be.
texagbeliever
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Ahh so we are rapist enablers if we aren't pro Ukraine. I hate it when people setup these gotcha strawmans meant to emotionally manipulate people to support their side.

The better argument is that USA and Russia both abuse Ukraine and are using it as a pawn with no regard to the well being of Ukrainians. If America really cared we could end the war. We don't care enough to release our O&G industry to crush Russia. We don't care enough to bribe NOPEC to help out. We don't care enough to lose a single American life. We do care enough to send the middle classes money though. Lucky. Us.
twk
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AG
texagbeliever said:

Ahh so we are rapist enablers if we aren't pro Ukraine. I hate it when people setup these gotcha strawmans meant to emotionally manipulate people to support their side.

The better argument is that USA and Russia both abuse Ukraine and are using it as a pawn with no regard to the well being of Ukrainians. If America really cared we could end the war. We don't care enough to release our O&G industry to crush Russia. We don't care enough to bribe NOPEC to help out. We don't care enough to lose a single American life. We do care enough to send the middle classes money though. Lucky. Us.
The only way America could end the war right now is to actively intervene; our air force could probably cripple the Russians in an afternoon, and leave the mopping up to the Ukrainians, but I don't know of too many people arguing for that. Conversely, if we were to cut off the flow of aid today, the war would carry on for a very long time, as Ukraine will receive enough aid from Europe to fight a defensive battle. They need our help if they want to conduct offensive operations.

The Russians are only interested in negotiating a temporary cessation of hostilities once they have achieved their objectives, or all they think they can accomplish in the short term. They are perfectly fine with taking Ukraine one slice at a time. The only thing that might change that thinking is if the Russians believed they were about to face a long term set back, like being run out of Crimea.
texagbeliever
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Economic war was the easiest and best lever to win the war. The left refused that option for political optics. Which tells me they don't give a **** about Ukraine. With that in mind I can only help but attribute nefarious reasons for the lefts desire to funnel more and more money.

Also the impact of USA pulling aide would most likely lead the europeans to follow suit rather quickly. At which point Ukraine would lose. Russia is likely to get Ukraine in the current path. Once a recession hits in America, its coming, we won't be funding Ukraine anymore. Same for western europe.
oh no
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AG
Get excited WW3 enthusiasts.


W
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one frustrating thing about the pro-Ukraine crowd...

they have not changed their opinion about the "might" of the Russian army after one year of actual data & observation from the battlefield.

still promoting fear about how the Russian army will roll up Poland and the Baltics next and so forth



texagbeliever
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Actually they hold that Russia will take over all of Europe if Ukraine falls but is also on the verge of complete collapse and Ukraine is about to win in 2 weeks. It is logically inconsistent.

TWK, if Russia demographics are so weak then NATO has nothing to fear and therefore Ukraine isn't important. So why does it matter as a strategic point
TxTarpon
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Well played comrade. Your quoted twitter source is a soviet (censored)


Gigem314
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AG
twk said:

NATO has never been a threat to Russia. Period. That's a Russian propaganda line pure and simple.

Giving arms to Ukraine was precisely the right thing to do. An unchecked Russia would be a threat to the rest of the old Warsaw Pact countries had Putin succeeded in rolling over Ukraine. Now that we have crippled the Russian military, how long we want to send aid, and how much, is very much a legitimate question. My view is that we should send them enough to give them a chance for a breakthrough this year. After that, it it's going to be a long term struggle, the Europeans need to carry the bulk of the load.
But what happens when the year runs out and what we're giving is still 'not enough'? Because that's what will likely happen. My concern is that this becomes a boondoggle that just further distracts us from the real threat....China.

Of course, with such poor leadership for the U.S. right now...maybe that doesn't matter.

I just hope we can get some adults back in charge in the next couple of years, because right now there are no good scenarios. We just keep digging ourselves deeper and deeper into a hole.
twk
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AG
Gigem314 said:

twk said:

NATO has never been a threat to Russia. Period. That's a Russian propaganda line pure and simple.

Giving arms to Ukraine was precisely the right thing to do. An unchecked Russia would be a threat to the rest of the old Warsaw Pact countries had Putin succeeded in rolling over Ukraine. Now that we have crippled the Russian military, how long we want to send aid, and how much, is very much a legitimate question. My view is that we should send them enough to give them a chance for a breakthrough this year. After that, it it's going to be a long term struggle, the Europeans need to carry the bulk of the load.
But what happens when the year runs out and what we're giving is still 'not enough'? Because that's what will likely happen. My concern is that this becomes a boondoggle that just further distracts us from the real threat....China.

Of course, with such poor leadership for the U.S. right now...maybe that doesn't matter.

I just hope we can get some adults back in charge in the next couple of years, because right now there are no good scenarios. We just keep digging ourselves deeper and deeper into a hole.
There are no guarantees that the Ukrainians can break through, but they have a chance to do so with what is in the pipeline right now. They deserve that chance. Whether it will succeed or not is anyone's guess. The alternative is that we just let the Russians consolidate their gains, and, at best, have a brief interregnum, only to do this all over again 8-10 years from now.
IslanderAg04
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Old Army Ghost said:

its not that im pro russia i just against defending against there illegal invation of ukraone
lol come on op

if nato ever needed to expand post cold war putin proves it daily and his fan boys seem to love it

nato is only a threat to russia because they invade theire neighbors
nato only needs nuclear weapons because russia invade their neighbors
ukraine only wants to join nato because russia invades it's neighbors


So why just Ukraine? Countries are continually invaded yet nobody cares. We have done it for years, yet the pro war crowd claims "we dont occupy".
oh no
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AG
You're right. It's really important to try not to see or understand different perspectives, especially with anyone who isn't really excited about ww3.
oh no
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AG


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