I think both Russia and the US are in the wrong in the situation. Especially if the Nordstream pipeline was completely done by the US without involving the Europeans.

I do find it funny that our leadership is crying and warning China that they better support Russia in exactly the same way we are supporting Ukraine though.

twk said:

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Now that we have crippled the Russian military,

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Have we though? While I don't keep up with the war thread here, the headlines I'm reading in the news is that Russia is gaining back ground they lost in East Ukraine.

Interesting. Thanks.

FWIW, I don't think any of us are in favor of endless aid to Ukraine because that would mean endless war. We want to see Ukraine armed to defend themselves and push Russia out of all occupied territories and force them to come to grips with their own failures as a nation. Russia and other aggressive actors need to know that the cost is simply not worth it if they think about conquering their neighbors.

Urban Ag said:

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Probably the biggest gripe I have ever had with this board (in reading and posting here for almost two decades) is how anyone that questions or opposes US support for Ukraine is labeled as pro-Putin or pro-Russia, For the record I despise both, always have. Likely always will in what years I have left on this planet.

Russia sucks. But Ukraine is one of the most absolutely corrupt nations on this globe. Mexico level corruption. After the fall of the USSR they sold untold amounts of weapons and munitions to some of the worst regimes and groups out there out their vast stockpiles sitting around. Ukrainians have been in bed with the absolute worst and most corrupt US politicians (hello Bidens) and businesses we have to offer. No one gave a sh** about this country prior to the Russian invasion. And let's be honest, the only reason the American left gives a rat's ass is a continuation of the Russia Russia Russia bullsh** lib narrative against Trump. And Zelynsky was just another eastern Euro trash grifter until it became cool for him to zoom meeting in to film festivals packed with libs.

I genuinely feel for the folks in Ukraine who have had their lives disrupted and destroyed by Putin's madness. I also genuinely feel for the young Russian men, mostly conscripts, who find themselves being slaughtered in a completely immoral military conflict against a people they have absolutely no desire to bring harm to.

The whole thing is a colossal sh** show. The type of thing I truly hoped civilized peoples would be beyond by 2023. Horrible.

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There are 2 groups quick to use the "putin apolgist" argument. The liberals who have been wrong about nearly every political issue. Then the patriotic Republicans who fail to dissociate American freedoms vs what existed and will exist under a "free" Ukraine.

Urban Ag said:

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Probably the biggest gripe I have ever had with this board (in reading and posting here for almost two decades) is how anyone that questions or opposes US support for Ukraine is labeled as pro-Putin or pro-Russia, For the record I despise both, always have. Likely always will in what years I have left on this planet.

Russia sucks. But Ukraine is one of the most absolutely corrupt nations on this globe. Mexico level corruption. After the fall of the USSR they sold untold amounts of weapons and munitions to some of the worst regimes and groups out there out their vast stockpiles sitting around. Ukrainians have been in bed with the absolute worst and most corrupt US politicians (hello Bidens) and businesses we have to offer. No one gave a sh** about this country prior to the Russian invasion. And let's be honest, the only reason the American left gives a rat's ass is a continuation of the Russia Russia Russia bullsh** lib narrative against Trump. And Zelynsky was just another eastern Euro trash grifter until it became cool for him to zoom meeting in to film festivals packed with libs.

I genuinely feel for the folks in Ukraine who have had their lives disrupted and destroyed by Putin's madness. I also genuinely feel for the young Russian men, mostly conscripts, who find themselves being slaughtered in a completely immoral military conflict against a people they have absolutely no desire to bring harm to.

The whole thing is a colossal sh** show. The type of thing I truly hoped civilized peoples would be beyond by 2023. Horrible.

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There is a big difference between Ukraine in 2014 and Ukraine in 2023. Is there still a ton of corruption? Yup. Worse than most of Africa? No. Worse than the US? Probably.

Now historically a lot of people will also conflate a lot the port of Odessa and the Ukraine as a whole. Odessa is a crazy smuggling town and Moldova/Transnistria also did a TON of smuggling of arms and such through Odessa.

The war has been going on barely a year, this will probably go on for at least another year. Peer/near peer conflicts are incredibly expensive. The modern world/the West hasn't really experienced this since Korea. Vietnam was a big conflict but not peer/near peer. Korea was also riding on the back of post WWII supply.

Everyone knows this is a complete **** show. I think at this point we need to avoid putting in a ton more in arms. Ammunition is a different matter. I would use this to push our production up because we will likely need to build out our capacity and production for China. Hopefully it's a sunk cost we never need, but I don't think that's realistic.

Quote:

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1) dirty American politicans want another ****hole to launder money through

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That is what liberals said in 2001, 1990, and 1968.

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2) we helped instigate this war

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We did not invade Russia. The Ukraine did not invade Russia. This is not a Ukrainian army operating in Russia killing people, destroying cities and capturing territory. Libs cried that that US policy in the middle east instigated 9/11. No, radical muz-zies hate us and want us dead. That is on them, not us. Russian invaded Ukraine for a warm water port in 2014, the west was quiet, he wanted more. If Trump was in office, this would not be happening.

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3) negotiations would end it quickly and help Ukraine citizens who want to join Russia do that.

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The only people running to Russia for freedom are people running from their crimes in the west.
There are not mass refugees desperately trying to get into Russia. This was also the case during the Soviet Union days. As Reagan said "They put up walls to keep people in."

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4) knowing the events that set off this whole thing were directly orchestrated by George soros.

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Yeah, one guy did this. And the CEO of P&G was a satanist in the 1980s. I have a bridge for sale, cheap.


Why does it seem the Ukrainians are fighting hard than the Afghans?
We dropped a Trillion debt dollars into Afghanistan.
Sadly Trump will never get the credit for approaching that mess with a sober mind.

Why is the Wagner Group exempt from criticism for their actions in Ukraine?
Murder, rape, torture on women and children is all good, right?

Stalin said "There is quality in quantity". The communist play book of throwing massive numbers of bodies has not overrun the Ukraine yet. Come on now, those 1961 tanks are still great, right? His solders don't want to fight, hard to win when your team does not want to be there.

NATO is seeing how bad Russia's post-soviet structure and assets are. They are doing it without their/our soldiers dying. Putin is a criminal dictator who can only threaten to nuke. He recently whacked (allegedly) the medical doctor that delivered his recent mistress' love child. Hard to do coke and bed chicks in a post nuke MadMax world. His status quo is more comfortable.

We have seen the outdated, poor quality of their stuff. He could push the nuclear launch button and half his assets probably would not work thanks to garbage maintenance since the hammer and sickle days. Russia does not have an economy to ramp arms up like they did during the soviet days so when their assets are gone, their replenishment rate is a pittance of what it used to be.

Economic war was the easiest and best lever to win the war. The left refused that option for political optics. Which tells me they don't give a **** about Ukraine. With that in mind I can only help but attribute nefarious reasons for the lefts desire to funnel more and more money.

Also the impact of USA pulling aide would most likely lead the europeans to follow suit rather quickly. At which point Ukraine would lose. Russia is likely to get Ukraine in the current path. Once a recession hits in America, its coming, we won't be funding Ukraine anymore. Same for western europe.

Get excited WW3 enthusiasts.

Some Ukrainian saboteurs made it past Russian borders and the first thing they did was murder a civilian. https://t.co/ovlCLHXLyp

— Ian Miles Cheong (@stillgray) March 3, 2023

Actually they hold that Russia will take over all of Europe if Ukraine falls but is also on the verge of complete collapse and Ukraine is about to win in 2 weeks. It is logically inconsistent.

TWK, if Russia demographics are so weak then NATO has nothing to fear and therefore Ukraine isn't important. So why does it matter as a strategic point

Well played comrade. Your quoted twitter source is a soviet (censored)

❤️🇷🇺 pic.twitter.com/vZeZyaQzHs

— Jason 🇷🇺 (@Jason90331299) March 3, 2023

twk said:

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NATO has never been a threat to Russia. Period. That's a Russian propaganda line pure and simple.

Giving arms to Ukraine was precisely the right thing to do. An unchecked Russia would be a threat to the rest of the old Warsaw Pact countries had Putin succeeded in rolling over Ukraine. Now that we have crippled the Russian military, how long we want to send aid, and how much, is very much a legitimate question. My view is that we should send them enough to give them a chance for a breakthrough this year. After that, it it's going to be a long term struggle, the Europeans need to carry the bulk of the load.

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But what happens when the year runs out and what we're giving is still 'not enough'? Because that's what will likely happen. My concern is that this becomes a boondoggle that just further distracts us from the real threat....China.

Of course, with such poor leadership for the U.S. right now...maybe that doesn't matter.

I just hope we can get some adults back in charge in the next couple of years, because right now there are no good scenarios. We just keep digging ourselves deeper and deeper into a hole.

Gigem314 said:

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twk said:

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NATO has never been a threat to Russia. Period. That's a Russian propaganda line pure and simple.

Giving arms to Ukraine was precisely the right thing to do. An unchecked Russia would be a threat to the rest of the old Warsaw Pact countries had Putin succeeded in rolling over Ukraine. Now that we have crippled the Russian military, how long we want to send aid, and how much, is very much a legitimate question. My view is that we should send them enough to give them a chance for a breakthrough this year. After that, it it's going to be a long term struggle, the Europeans need to carry the bulk of the load.

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But what happens when the year runs out and what we're giving is still 'not enough'? Because that's what will likely happen. My concern is that this becomes a boondoggle that just further distracts us from the real threat....China.

Of course, with such poor leadership for the U.S. right now...maybe that doesn't matter.

I just hope we can get some adults back in charge in the next couple of years, because right now there are no good scenarios. We just keep digging ourselves deeper and deeper into a hole.

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There are no guarantees that the Ukrainians can break through, but they have a chance to do so with what is in the pipeline right now. They deserve that chance. Whether it will succeed or not is anyone's guess. The alternative is that we just let the Russians consolidate their gains, and, at best, have a brief interregnum, only to do this all over again 8-10 years from now.

Old Army Ghost said:

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its not that im pro russia i just against defending against there illegal invation of ukraone
lol come on op

if nato ever needed to expand post cold war putin proves it daily and his fan boys seem to love it

nato is only a threat to russia because they invade theire neighbors
nato only needs nuclear weapons because russia invade their neighbors
ukraine only wants to join nato because russia invades it's neighbors

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So why just Ukraine? Countries are continually invaded yet nobody cares. We have done it for years, yet the pro war crowd claims "we dont occupy".

You're right. It's really important to try not to see or understand different perspectives, especially with anyone who isn't really excited about ww3.

When the war in Ukraine erupted, YouTube banned Stone's film, which mostly covers the events of 2013 and 2014, with a heavy emphasis on Victoria Nuland's role in choosing the new Ukrainian leaders.

Rumble hosted it, and has now been viewed there by more than 6 million people: pic.twitter.com/MSLjR5vWMN

— Glenn Greenwald (@ggreenwald) March 2, 2023

Reminder for those who haven't watched Stone's movie