Russia/Ukraine from Another Perspective (Relaunch Part Deux)

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Teslag
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docb said:

Honestly this thread has some of the most bizarre posters on it. I don't even know where they find all of this weird **** but it is sort of entertaining since most of it is so stupid. I guess with the sheer number of Aggie grads there is just going to be some outliers out there. Or maybe they have Russian mail order brides?
MarkTwain
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nortex97 said:

Goldman's new piece is excellent.



Quote:

Short of trained personnel and ammunition, one speaker argued, Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky might consider a Chinese peace plan, especially after Beijing's successful mediation of the Iran-Saudi dispute.

The several dozen attendees, many of whom had held cabinet or sub-cabinet positions, met under Chatham House rules, which forbid identification of individual participants but allow the content itself to be presented.

Overwhelmingly, the sentiment of participants leaned towards escalation in the form of providing additional weapons to Ukraine. One prominent analyst proposed the formation of a "foreign legion" of fighters from other countries to supplement Ukraine's shrinking pool of trained manpower.

The great majority of participants favored risking everything for absolute victory over Russia. None of the attendees mentioned the qualms that former president Donald Trump voiced on May 17 about the risk of nuclear escalation in Ukraine.

The question of how the Russia-Ukraine war might escalate into a broader conflict received no attention. Their frustration, rather, was that Ukraine seems less likely to defeat Russia, even if the West makes the maximum effort and risks escalation.

We should not be surprised, one of the lead presenters said at the end of the conclave, if Ukraine's President Zelensky takes up China's peace plan. No one in the West anticipated that China would mediate between Saudi Arabia and Iran.

Although Washington has dismissed China's peace plan for Ukraine, Zelensky has not. Russia would keep the Sea of Azov and most of the Donbas, a settlement that might be forced on Ukraine as it runs out of manpower and ammunition. America's view of China is "primitive," the expert added, and tends to underestimate Chinese sophistication.

A spokesman for the National Security Council dismissed the Chinese initiative, which calls for an immediate ceasefire, noting that a ceasefire would allow Russia to remain in place on territory it seized from Ukraine.

Ukraine has sustained two-thirds as many casualties as Russia, but with a third to a quarter of Russia's population, is far less able to sustain them, according to one expert who spent many months on the ground in Ukraine.

The entire army that NATO trained between 2014 and 2022 in preparation for a Russian attack is dead, and recruits are being thrown into battle lines with three weeks of training.

Quote:

There is a lot of anti-Russian sentiment in China, he added, and the Chinese people won't like the idea of accepting hardship to help Russia. Ukraine and China, he added, "have a robust partnership going back decades."

I am at liberty to report what I told the group. The Ukraine war has set in motion a global realignment, including the China-Iran-Saudi agreement. Looking at America's blunders in Ukraine, the Saudis have concluded that America won't put boots on the ground in the Middle East and are looking for other friends.
Turkey has flourished as a trade intermediary between China and Russia, and has patched up relations with the Gulf States as well as Israel. India, supposedly an ally against China, has become Russia's biggest customer for oil and has vastly expanded its trade with China, which now provides 30% of its non-oil imports.

The United States is losing influence catastrophically by underestimating Russia. It doesn't have the industrial capacity to provide artillery ammunition to Ukraine. The best policy is an immediate ceasefire, I argued.

Goldman is 100% dead on target!! All those so called foreign policy "experts" helped cause this war by trying to push Ukraine into NATO. They underestimated Putin and thought Russia was too weak. And now everyone can see if they are paying attention they were wrong. Again!!!

The hundreds of thousands of needless deaths falls on the shoulders of policy failures by all you so called "experts".

Here's a novel idea STOP funding unwinnable wars just to pad your own pockets with kickbacks for your buddy's NGO's . Stop printing money for the sake of printing money to fill your coffers while the rest of the US taxpayers are circling the drain.
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience" - Mark Twain
Ag with kids
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Foreverconservative said:

nortex97 said:

Goldman's new piece is excellent.



Quote:

Short of trained personnel and ammunition, one speaker argued, Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky might consider a Chinese peace plan, especially after Beijing's successful mediation of the Iran-Saudi dispute.

The several dozen attendees, many of whom had held cabinet or sub-cabinet positions, met under Chatham House rules, which forbid identification of individual participants but allow the content itself to be presented.

Overwhelmingly, the sentiment of participants leaned towards escalation in the form of providing additional weapons to Ukraine. One prominent analyst proposed the formation of a "foreign legion" of fighters from other countries to supplement Ukraine's shrinking pool of trained manpower.

The great majority of participants favored risking everything for absolute victory over Russia. None of the attendees mentioned the qualms that former president Donald Trump voiced on May 17 about the risk of nuclear escalation in Ukraine.

The question of how the Russia-Ukraine war might escalate into a broader conflict received no attention. Their frustration, rather, was that Ukraine seems less likely to defeat Russia, even if the West makes the maximum effort and risks escalation.

We should not be surprised, one of the lead presenters said at the end of the conclave, if Ukraine's President Zelensky takes up China's peace plan. No one in the West anticipated that China would mediate between Saudi Arabia and Iran.

Although Washington has dismissed China's peace plan for Ukraine, Zelensky has not. Russia would keep the Sea of Azov and most of the Donbas, a settlement that might be forced on Ukraine as it runs out of manpower and ammunition. America's view of China is "primitive," the expert added, and tends to underestimate Chinese sophistication.

A spokesman for the National Security Council dismissed the Chinese initiative, which calls for an immediate ceasefire, noting that a ceasefire would allow Russia to remain in place on territory it seized from Ukraine.

Ukraine has sustained two-thirds as many casualties as Russia, but with a third to a quarter of Russia's population, is far less able to sustain them, according to one expert who spent many months on the ground in Ukraine.

The entire army that NATO trained between 2014 and 2022 in preparation for a Russian attack is dead, and recruits are being thrown into battle lines with three weeks of training.

Quote:

There is a lot of anti-Russian sentiment in China, he added, and the Chinese people won't like the idea of accepting hardship to help Russia. Ukraine and China, he added, "have a robust partnership going back decades."

I am at liberty to report what I told the group. The Ukraine war has set in motion a global realignment, including the China-Iran-Saudi agreement. Looking at America's blunders in Ukraine, the Saudis have concluded that America won't put boots on the ground in the Middle East and are looking for other friends.
Turkey has flourished as a trade intermediary between China and Russia, and has patched up relations with the Gulf States as well as Israel. India, supposedly an ally against China, has become Russia's biggest customer for oil and has vastly expanded its trade with China, which now provides 30% of its non-oil imports.

The United States is losing influence catastrophically by underestimating Russia. It doesn't have the industrial capacity to provide artillery ammunition to Ukraine. The best policy is an immediate ceasefire, I argued.

Goldman is 100% dead on target!! All those so called foreign policy "experts" helped cause this war by trying to push Ukraine into NATO. They underestimated Putin and thought Russia was too weak. And now everyone can see if they are paying attention they were wrong. Again!!!

The hundreds of thousands of needless deaths falls on the shoulders of policy failures by all you so called "experts".

Here's a novel idea STOP funding unwinnable wars just to pad your own pockets with kickbacks for your buddy's NGO's . Stop printing money for the sake of printing money to fill your coffers while the rest of the US taxpayers are circling the drain.
Why Russia won't invade Ukrainistan by David P Goldman...

Did he acknowledge that he was dead ****ing wrong about his prior assessments?
GAC06
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Russia invading Ukraine, getting embarrassed and forced into a humiliating large scale withdrawal, then grinding out two plus years of trench warfare at the expense of hundreds of thousands killed, most of their frontline equipment, and millions of their desperately needed skilled workforce to settle for not much more than they already possessed before the war, while the US lost nothing but some hand me down equipment and a fraction of one year's defense budget would be a humiliation of…

The United States?

That certainly is "another perspective"
TRADUCTOR
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$250BB aid to prop up comedian, launder, and bleed out countrymen to keep the grift going.

This an unAmerican FJB way to participate in this half measure and historically on point for corrupted Democrats.
Logos Stick
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"The entire army that NATO trained between 2014 and 2022 in preparation for a Russian attack is dead"



Wow. Seems it's time for a ceasefire and peace agreement.
FJB24
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Wow.

Quote:

Question: It is interesting to see the correlation between these two events. Since we've already mentioned the United States... I will not ask whom Russia would like to see as president of the United States. But Donald Trump said in one of his comments that if he were president, he would end the war in Ukraine in 24 hours. We are also seeing a growing reluctance among Republicans in the U.S. Congress to continue funding Ukraine. President Joe Biden has asked the U.S. Congress to allocate $75 billion in aid to Ukraine. Do you think Russia has more common ground with the Republicans?
Sergey Lavrov: President of Russia Vladimir Putin has already answered the question of who we would prefer to see in the White House. And more than once. But the most important thing about his response was that we are ready to work with any president that the American people elect, as long as that elected official is willing to act on the basis of equality and fairness. Without trying to "win" some concessions on our part, and in return not to change anything in their policy.
On February 29, Vladimir Putin commented on the US proposal to resume a dialogue on strategic stability based on the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty. But the preamble of the treaty says that it was concluded on the principles of equality, mutual respect, transparency, trust and many other good things. And then everything else. The Americans propose to resume the dialogue on strategic stability in order to resume visits to our strategic facilities, since the agreement provides for inspections.
First, the inspections were agreed in the context of the relationship reflected in the preamble to the treaty. The United States believes that the preamble is irrelevant. Why? Without the preamble, there would be nothing else.
Secondly, how can the Americans seriously "ask" to visit our strategic facilities when several attacks carried out by the Ukrainians using long-range weapons against our strategic airfields could not have taken place without the participation of American specialists? Including in the form of modernizing the missiles themselves to add range to them. President Vladimir Putin described this approach in his Address to the Federal Assembly on February 29, when he said that the United States would try to achieve what it wanted in different ways: through the Russian Foreign Ministry and other agencies. All this is just to get a one-sided benefit.
We are not waiting for the changes that the elections in the United States will bring. As for Donald Trump, he has already been president. During his leadership, some of the heaviest sanctions were adopted, as it seemed at the time. But the Biden administration has outdone everyone.
But it was President Barack Obama who started it. At the end of his term of office, three weeks before Donald Trump's inauguration, the US President expelled our diplomats along with their families and children. In total, there were 120 of them. He did it on New Year's Eve. He ordered them to go home on a day when there were no direct flights between Washington and Moscow. And our employees with children, belongings, suitcases were going to New York by bus in bad weather. This was done with special "finesse" by the Obama administration. And their followers continued the work.
I forgot this particular instance of Obama being a petty jackass.
Teslag
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Logos Stick said:

"The entire army that NATO trained between 2014 and 2022 in preparation for a Russian attack is dead"


Wow. Seems it's time for a ceasefire and peace agreement.



Russia doesn't want peace. Russia wants Ukraine to be a part of Russia.

And if the entire Uke army is dead why is Russia only able to take 2 miles in one tiny part of the front in 6 months?
Teslag
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I also find it ironic that the same people claiming Ukraine isn't a sovereign country are also saying that Russia should enter a peace deal with…




a sovereign country.
Ag with kids
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Logos Stick said:

"The entire army that NATO trained between 2014 and 2022 in preparation for a Russian attack is dead"



Wow. Seems it's time for a ceasefire and peace agreement.
Same author told us confidently that Russia wouldn't invade Ukraine - right before Russia invaded Ukraine.

So, take his assessments with a boulder of salt.
Logos Stick
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Teslag said:

Logos Stick said:

"The entire army that NATO trained between 2014 and 2022 in preparation for a Russian attack is dead"


Wow. Seems it's time for a ceasefire and peace agreement.



Russia doesn't want peace. Russia wants Ukraine to be a part of Russia.

And if the entire Uke army is dead why is Russia only able to take 2 miles in one tiny part of the front in 6 months?


Not per the original peace deal that's been reported on.

Who said the entire army is dead?
Ag with kids
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Logos Stick said:

Teslag said:

Logos Stick said:

"The entire army that NATO trained between 2014 and 2022 in preparation for a Russian attack is dead"


Wow. Seems it's time for a ceasefire and peace agreement.



Russia doesn't want peace. Russia wants Ukraine to be a part of Russia.

And if the entire Uke army is dead why is Russia only able to take 2 miles in one tiny part of the front in 6 months?


Not per the original peace deal that's been reported on.

Who said the entire army is dead?

"The entire army that NATO trained between 2014 and 2022 in preparation for a Russian attack is dead"

Somebody that this poster quoted...
nortex97
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The basic math says every day Ukraine doesn't reach a truce/ceasefire it gets weaker/smaller.
Logos Stick
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That's not Goldmans assessment.
Logos Stick
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Ag with kids said:

Logos Stick said:

Teslag said:

Logos Stick said:

"The entire army that NATO trained between 2014 and 2022 in preparation for a Russian attack is dead"


Wow. Seems it's time for a ceasefire and peace agreement.



Russia doesn't want peace. Russia wants Ukraine to be a part of Russia.

And if the entire Uke army is dead why is Russia only able to take 2 miles in one tiny part of the front in 6 months?


Not per the original peace deal that's been reported on.

Who said the entire army is dead?

"The entire army that NATO trained between 2014 and 2022 in preparation for a Russian attack is dead"

Somebody that this poster quoted...


LOL. So exclude the part of the same sentence that clearly proves I am correct.

Just BOLD what you want.
Logos Stick
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nortex97 said:



The basic math says every day Ukraine doesn't reach a truce/ceasefire it gets weaker/smaller.


With the current US strategy, they are screwed. Everyone with a brain cell knows it.
Ags4DaWin
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Ag with kids said:

Logos Stick said:

Teslag said:

Logos Stick said:

"The entire army that NATO trained between 2014 and 2022 in preparation for a Russian attack is dead"


Wow. Seems it's time for a ceasefire and peace agreement.



Russia doesn't want peace. Russia wants Ukraine to be a part of Russia.

And if the entire Uke army is dead why is Russia only able to take 2 miles in one tiny part of the front in 6 months?


Not per the original peace deal that's been reported on.

Who said the entire army is dead?

"The entire army that NATO trained between 2014 and 2022 in preparation for a Russian attack is dead"

Somebody that this poster quoted...


Reading comprehension skills are important.

It means that all the experienced troops that NATO trained to counter a Ruddian invasion have been killed.

It might be a slight overstatement.

But the gist is that the majority of the regular, professional soldiers are dead and fighting units are mostly comprised of hastily trained conscripts and volunteers with less experience.

Ukraine is basically in the same shape the confederacy was I before they capitulated and the US was before they won the revolutionary war.

Once ur manufacturing is gone and ur regular troops and command are mostly killed and ur relying solely on international support either u hit a Tipping point and win a major decsive battle that breaks the enemies will to occupy ur land or u start to bleed at a higher level accelerating the decline of ur army.


Considering the fact that no European country is willing to give Ukraine offensive weaponry the odds of them striking a significant victory are zilch.

This entire war has been set up as a slow bleed that will go on for a decade and a decade long means to excuse constant monetary aid that will go to US military contractors and politicians and corrupt Ukranian officials.
PlaneCrashGuy
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Ags4DaWin said:

Ag with kids said:

Logos Stick said:

Teslag said:

Logos Stick said:

"The entire army that NATO trained between 2014 and 2022 in preparation for a Russian attack is dead"


Wow. Seems it's time for a ceasefire and peace agreement.



Russia doesn't want peace. Russia wants Ukraine to be a part of Russia.

And if the entire Uke army is dead why is Russia only able to take 2 miles in one tiny part of the front in 6 months?


Not per the original peace deal that's been reported on.

Who said the entire army is dead?

"The entire army that NATO trained between 2014 and 2022 in preparation for a Russian attack is dead"

Somebody that this poster quoted...


Reading comprehension skills are important.

It means that all the experienced troops that NATO trained to counter a Ruddian invasion have been killed.

It might be a slight overstatement.

But the gist is that the majority of the regular, professional soldiers are dead and fighting units are mostly comprised of hastily trained conscripts and volunteers with less experience.

Ukraine is basically in the same shape the confederacy was I before they capitulated and the US was before they won the revolutionary war.

Once ur manufacturing is gone and ur regular troops and command are mostly killed and ur relying solely on international support either u hit a Tipping point and win a major decsive battle that breaks the enemies will to occupy ur land or u start to bleed at a higher level accelerating the decline of ur army.


Considering the fact that no European country is willing to give Ukraine offensive weaponry the odds of them striking a significant victory are zilch.

This entire war has been set up as a slow bleed that will go on for a decade and a decade long means to excuse constant monetary aid that will go to US military contractors and politicians and corrupt Ukranian officials.


Everything in this post is correct, and after it happens they will still pretend it was a victory for Ukraine.
nortex97
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Yes, but note these reports. F-35's don't just happen to stray into Russian airspace by accident.



A large 'patriotic' war against the 'evil Russians' might be what Biden needs this November.

Another Abrams lost, btw. This one struck a mine, and was abandoned apparently.
Ag with kids
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Logos Stick said:

That's not Goldmans assessment.
Yes it is. He's the author of that article (Spengler).
Ag with kids
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Ags4DaWin said:

Ag with kids said:

Logos Stick said:

Teslag said:

Logos Stick said:

"The entire army that NATO trained between 2014 and 2022 in preparation for a Russian attack is dead"


Wow. Seems it's time for a ceasefire and peace agreement.



Russia doesn't want peace. Russia wants Ukraine to be a part of Russia.

And if the entire Uke army is dead why is Russia only able to take 2 miles in one tiny part of the front in 6 months?


Not per the original peace deal that's been reported on.

Who said the entire army is dead?

"The entire army that NATO trained between 2014 and 2022 in preparation for a Russian attack is dead"

Somebody that this poster quoted...


Reading comprehension skills are important.

It means that all the experienced troops that NATO trained to counter a Ruddian invasion have been killed.

It might be a slight overstatement.

But the gist is that the majority of the regular, professional soldiers are dead and fighting units are mostly comprised of hastily trained conscripts and volunteers with less experience.

Ukraine is basically in the same shape the confederacy was I before they capitulated and the US was before they won the revolutionary war.

Once ur manufacturing is gone and ur regular troops and command are mostly killed and ur relying solely on international support either u hit a Tipping point and win a major decsive battle that breaks the enemies will to occupy ur land or u start to bleed at a higher level accelerating the decline of ur army.


Considering the fact that no European country is willing to give Ukraine offensive weaponry the odds of them striking a significant victory are zilch.

This entire war has been set up as a slow bleed that will go on for a decade and a decade long means to excuse constant monetary aid that will go to US military contractors and politicians and corrupt Ukranian officials.
Well, Goldman said it was the ENTIRE ARMY that was trained from 2014-2022. So you agree he was full of *****

But, you're now saying that it means that MOST are dead...can you give a link to a source that shows greater than 50% KIA?
J. Walter Weatherman
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nortex97 said:

Yes, but note these reports. F-35's don't just happen to stray into Russian airspace by accident.



A large 'patriotic' war against the 'evil Russians' might be what Biden needs this November.

Another Abrams lost, btw. This one struck a mine, and was abandoned apparently.


That's not Russian airspace.
Logos Stick
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That's not what the guy said. It's clear what he is saying if you can calm down and read. Based on what I read there were about 25,000 soldiers that were trained by NATO during that time. Those were the best, most highly trained soldiers that Ukraine had. Those soldiers are gone.
Teslag
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Logos Stick said:

That's not what the guy said. It's clear what he is saying if you can calm down and read. Based on what I read there were about 25,000 soldiers that were trained by NATO during that time. Those were the best, most highly trained soldiers that Ukraine had. Those soldiers are gone.


Gone accord to who?
John Armfield
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docb said:

Honestly this thread has some of the most bizarre posters on it. I don't even know where they find all of this weird **** but it is sort of entertaining since most of it is so stupid. I guess with the sheer number of Aggie grads there is just going to be some outliers out there. Or maybe they have Russian mail order brides?
great post except you should have ended it by calling us Ivans troll better next time, also you wish you had a Russian mail order bride vs what you probably have.
Logos Stick
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See above.
Teslag
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Logos Stick said:

See above.


Ah the guy that was full of **** and dead ass wrong two years ago. Carry on.
nortex97
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Yep.





I had forgotten that the creation of the Warsaw Pact was a response to NATO's own formation. Glad Elon and I agree though.
PlaneCrashGuy
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nortex97
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Good podcast (get around to it around halfway in):



China Joe and family to pay China back $1 million?



Russia, China, and the Biden crime familia again have worked together hand in hand;









Forever proxy war!





nortex97
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A probable/plausible future state;



John Armfield
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Pulled this delusional post from the other thread...UKE fan boys been saying this for 2 years now and Russia keeps fighting. pure propaganda.


Quote:

Quote:

They are losing a reinforced battalion A DAY in men and equipment. No military can sustain that today and continue to function effectively for very long.

Their capabilities will continue to degrade as they continue to lose and body of trained and experienced veterans to wasteful attrition, though I am sure they do concentrate some of those on special units that are effective.




Teslag
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Careful. Staff doesn't take kindly to cross posting on threads and calling out posters and it's how we get the thread locked again.
LMCane
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Teslag said:

docb said:

Honestly this thread has some of the most bizarre posters on it. I don't even know where they find all of this weird **** but it is sort of entertaining since most of it is so stupid. I guess with the sheer number of Aggie grads there is just going to be some outliers out there. Or maybe they have Russian mail order brides?

not everyone is an Aggie grad
nortex97
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John Armfield said:

Pulled this delusional post from the other thread...UKE fan boys been saying this for 2 years now and Russia keeps fighting. pure propaganda.
Quote:

Quote:

They are losing a reinforced battalion A DAY in men and equipment. No military can sustain that today and continue to function effectively for very long.

Their capabilities will continue to degrade as they continue to lose and body of trained and experienced veterans to wasteful attrition, though I am sure they do concentrate some of those on special units that are effective.


I dunno what the point of such an assertion would be, as the ISW/British intelligence teen team of keyboard fighters themselves concluded Russia is recruiting/training/replacing at more than a 1:1 rate for KIA/injuries, and rotating forces as well last week. When ISW points that out, even when couched in some other talking points, it's pretty damning.
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