Teslag said:

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Quote:

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The smarter choice is to concede the house because losing is inevitable

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But it wasn't. Everyone thought Ukraine would "lose the house" to Russia. They didn't. They still have a country and are regaining more of it every day. I'd rather have my home burned to the ground and the ruins be mine than leave it be in the hands of another by force.

You may differ.

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This. They were supposed to lose a year and half ago.

Conscription. Someone is literally telling Ukrainians they have to fight.

Also why did Ukraine suspend elections. Wouldn't a national election be the best opportunity for the people to vote if they want the war to continue? Not to mention the media control that is taking place there.

And yes blah blah Russia is doing the same thing. But we aren't supporting Russia so it isn't relevant.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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texagbeliever said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Anyone who argues this is the "Ukrainians war" and they have a right to die for their country if that's what they want. We have to support them in their struggle because they are heroes. Just is cowardice.

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Capitulation in the face of aggression is cowardice. I'm sure if someone broke into your home, raped your wife, door your kids, and kicked you out at gunpoint you'd just say, "Hey, it's ok. You take the house and all the stuff. Here's the deed, too. Hope you enjoy it!"

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You are bad at metaphors.

This is more likely someone breaking into your neighbors house and you saying fight to the death even though you are outnumbered 100-1. Maybe you send him some bullets via a drone.
The smarter choice is to concede the house because losing is inevitable and wait for a more strategic opportunity to get it back. There is this thing called the FUTURE it follows the present. You hyper prioritize the present with no regard to the future. Very short sided.

Also notice the bravado of this vulgar post. If you aren't with us you are a weakling who would be cool with wife being raped and kids being killed. You are insecure.

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Nice ad hominem there at the end, too.

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You try to emotionally destabilize me by having me picture my wife being raped and kids killed. Emotional arguments of such nature are a sign of insecurity.

ABATTBQ11 said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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The smarter choice is to concede the house because losing is inevitable

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But it wasn't. Everyone thought Ukraine would "lose the house" to Russia. They didn't. They still have a country and are regaining more of it every day. I'd rather have my home burned to the ground and the ruins be mine than leave it be in the hands of another by force.

You may differ.

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This. They were supposed to lose a year and half ago.

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And putin was going to be overthrown by other oligarchs.
And the Ruble was going to crash.
And Ukraine was going to win the war in the winter when Russia had just a mere foothold.

texagbeliever said:

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Conscription. Someone is literally telling Ukrainians they have to fight.

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They fight awfully hard for an army full of conscripts.

Teslag said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Conscription. Someone is literally telling Ukrainians they have to fight.

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They fight awfully hard for an army full of conscripts.

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Gladiators fought hard to. That doesn't make their battles just or something to cheer on.

NEW FOOTAGE: An unverified video being circulated on Telegram appears to show the moment a Russian cruise missile impacted a residential area close to Odesa’s city center. pic.twitter.com/fwatsjr6Ke

— Forster Monitoring (@forster_intel) July 19, 2023

texagbeliever said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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The smarter choice is to concede the house because losing is inevitable

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But it wasn't. Everyone thought Ukraine would "lose the house" to Russia. They didn't. They still have a country and are regaining more of it every day. I'd rather have my home burned to the ground and the ruins be mine than leave it be in the hands of another by force.

You may differ.

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This. They were supposed to lose a year and half ago.

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And putin was going to be overthrown by other oligarchs.
And the Ruble was going to crash.
And Ukraine was going to win the war in the winter when Russia had just a mere foothold.

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Russia ran out of gasoline by the 2nd Sunday of the war.
Russian trucks were unable to move due to tire rot by the first month.
Russia ran out of missiles after the 2nd month.
Russia ran out of artillery after the 6th month.


Maybe Tesla & Ros stop with the Western media propaganda, just maybe.

UKE gaining more and more land where is the evidence for this?

texagbeliever said:

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Anyone who argues this is the "Ukrainians war" and they have a right to die for their country if that's what they want. We have to support them in their struggle because they are heroes. Just is cowardice.

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Quite a stretch to call that viewpoint "passionately celebrating the needless loss of life", no? Are you saying Ukrainians don't have a right to die for their country?

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Not really. They are fake risk taking at the expense of others. Any measure of hyperbole is warranted calling out such selfishness. I have read sufficient number of posts celebrating death on this thread that I would say calling it hyperbole is a stretch. You have too but are choosing to stick your head in the sand and claim the I didn't see it argument.

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Seems like all of the posts "celebrating death" basically come from one poster right? Or at least until the one on this page openly hoping Ukraine gets "utterly crushed." Kind of strange you didn't seem to have a problem with that.

J. Walter Weatherman said:

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texagbeliever said:

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Anyone who argues this is the "Ukrainians war" and they have a right to die for their country if that's what they want. We have to support them in their struggle because they are heroes. Just is cowardice.

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Quite a stretch to call that viewpoint "passionately celebrating the needless loss of life", no? Are you saying Ukrainians don't have a right to die for their country?

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Not really. They are fake risk taking at the expense of others. Any measure of hyperbole is warranted calling out such selfishness. I have read sufficient number of posts celebrating death on this thread that I would say calling it hyperbole is a stretch. You have too but are choosing to stick your head in the sand and claim the I didn't see it argument.

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Seems like all of the posts "celebrating death" basically come from one poster right? Or at least until the one on this page openly hoping Ukraine gets "utterly crushed." Kind of strange you didn't seem to have a problem with that.

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you missed StAckInG RusSSin boDies posts everyday on here? Meanwhile majority of those are some poor young guy who just wants to go home??

J. Walter Weatherman said:

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texagbeliever said:

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Anyone who argues this is the "Ukrainians war" and they have a right to die for their country if that's what they want. We have to support them in their struggle because they are heroes. Just is cowardice.

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Quite a stretch to call that viewpoint "passionately celebrating the needless loss of life", no? Are you saying Ukrainians don't have a right to die for their country?

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Not really. They are fake risk taking at the expense of others. Any measure of hyperbole is warranted calling out such selfishness. I have read sufficient number of posts celebrating death on this thread that I would say calling it hyperbole is a stretch. You have too but are choosing to stick your head in the sand and claim the I didn't see it argument.

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Seems like all of the posts "celebrating death" basically come from one poster right? Or at least until the one on this page openly hoping Ukraine gets "utterly crushed." Kind of strange you didn't seem to have a problem with that.

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Well see I ignore posters with few posts and "dick" in their habdle. They don't seem to take themselves seriously so I don't take their posts seriously. Further if you can't see the difference between the most frequent dissident poster on this thread and some random drive by troll on impact of tone I can't help you.

You can keep digging or you can admit that you should be distancing yourself from teslaag more seriously and be open to ideas that what is a desirable end game. With a focus on reasonable possibilities. That is what most of the quality posters on this thread want to have. The Best end for Ukranians that is based on reality. Which is not the same as beating Russia or winning the war necessarily.

LarryElder said:

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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texagbeliever said:

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Anyone who argues this is the "Ukrainians war" and they have a right to die for their country if that's what they want. We have to support them in their struggle because they are heroes. Just is cowardice.

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Quite a stretch to call that viewpoint "passionately celebrating the needless loss of life", no? Are you saying Ukrainians don't have a right to die for their country?

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Not really. They are fake risk taking at the expense of others. Any measure of hyperbole is warranted calling out such selfishness. I have read sufficient number of posts celebrating death on this thread that I would say calling it hyperbole is a stretch. You have too but are choosing to stick your head in the sand and claim the I didn't see it argument.

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Seems like all of the posts "celebrating death" basically come from one poster right? Or at least until the one on this page openly hoping Ukraine gets "utterly crushed." Kind of strange you didn't seem to have a problem with that.

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you missed StAckInG RusSSin boDies posts everyday on here? Meanwhile majority of those are some poor young guy who just wants to go home??

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Like I said, one poster is more aggressive than I would be but I don't really see many others like that, so just trying to figure out how being fine with the US providing aid that amounts to a very small percentage of our military budget = "passionately celebrating the needless loss of life".

On a similar note from the other direction - posting literal paid Russian propaganda or implying Ukraine getting invaded is their fault is also much different than simply having the opinion that it's not the US's fight to be involved with.

Simple question: Has Ukraine been engaged in killing their ethnic Russian citizenry since 2014?

Yes or no. Two keystrokes or three.

LarryElder said:

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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texagbeliever said:

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J. Walter Weatherman said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Anyone who argues this is the "Ukrainians war" and they have a right to die for their country if that's what they want. We have to support them in their struggle because they are heroes. Just is cowardice.

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Quite a stretch to call that viewpoint "passionately celebrating the needless loss of life", no? Are you saying Ukrainians don't have a right to die for their country?

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Not really. They are fake risk taking at the expense of others. Any measure of hyperbole is warranted calling out such selfishness. I have read sufficient number of posts celebrating death on this thread that I would say calling it hyperbole is a stretch. You have too but are choosing to stick your head in the sand and claim the I didn't see it argument.

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Seems like all of the posts "celebrating death" basically come from one poster right? Or at least until the one on this page openly hoping Ukraine gets "utterly crushed." Kind of strange you didn't seem to have a problem with that.

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you missed StAckInG RusSSin boDies posts everyday on here? Meanwhile majority of those are some poor young guy who just wants to go home??

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As soon as he returns home I wish him nothing but long life and happiness. As long as he's on the battlefield for an enemy nation, and Russia is our enemy, then I wish him a quick and painless death.

All the corruption is related and has cost hundreds of thousands of lives and jobs and trillions in inflation.

BREAKING: Senator Chuck Grassley has released the FD-1023 form claiming Joe Biden and Hunter Biden coerced Burisma CEO Mykola Zlochevsk to pay them $5,000,000 to get Ukrainian prosecutor Viktor Shokin fired.

Zlochevsk hired Hunter despite thinking he was "was stupid" and his… pic.twitter.com/iYlXmmrBNP

— Collin Rugg (@CollinRugg) July 20, 2023

LarryElder said:

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UKE gaining more and more land where is the evidence for this?

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Has anyone seen the evidence? I missed it.

I'm sure you could find some on Russia Today. Should be in your browser favorites.

texagbeliever said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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texagbeliever said:

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ABATTBQ11 said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Anyone who argues this is the "Ukrainians war" and they have a right to die for their country if that's what they want. We have to support them in their struggle because they are heroes. Just is cowardice.

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Capitulation in the face of aggression is cowardice. I'm sure if someone broke into your home, raped your wife, door your kids, and kicked you out at gunpoint you'd just say, "Hey, it's ok. You take the house and all the stuff. Here's the deed, too. Hope you enjoy it!"

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You are bad at metaphors.

This is more likely someone breaking into your neighbors house and you saying fight to the death even though you are outnumbered 100-1. Maybe you send him some bullets via a drone.
The smarter choice is to concede the house because losing is inevitable and wait for a more strategic opportunity to get it back. There is this thing called the FUTURE it follows the present. You hyper prioritize the present with no regard to the future. Very short sided.

Also notice the bravado of this vulgar post. If you aren't with us you are a weakling who would be cool with wife being raped and kids being killed. You are insecure.

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Nice ad hominem there at the end, too.

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You try to emotionally destabilize me by having me picture my wife being raped and kids killed. Emotional arguments of such nature are a sign of insecurity.

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Well that's what the Ukrainians have had to live through, so it's a very valid point when you're telling them to turn the other cheek. If you're advocating just rolling over in the face of everything Russia has done, then maybe you might want to admit you'd either take a different tone if it was done to you or that you would in fact do exactly what you're advocating and roll over in such a situation.

I never advocated for turning the other cheek. I just don't advocate for fighting a war when the winners will be big banks and billionaires who will buy up Ukraine on the cheap. You seem to confuse being strategic and getting the best possible outcome with surrender. Meanwhile you hold out for some mythical gallant victory that will not happen and at this point will amount to little gain.

Ukraine is losing its culture and ethos by losing its population through death, low birth rates and mass emigration. Winning the war gives them rights to a wasteland they will be applying to other countries to escape. Not to mention the fascist regime they now live under.

Sorry I live in real world. I get war is ugly. I also get that humans are ugly and evil especially those in power. I can't understand the whole war should be nice and honorable crowd. It is nonsensical to the actual idea of war. Oh kill each other but only kill these people and do it humanely.

Quote:

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Winning the war gives them rights to a wasteland

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Russia sure seems to want that "wasteland" pretty badly...

Oh and I would have gotten my family out of the Ukraine along with myself. The idea that Ukraine is some beacon of freedom and opportunity worth fighting for is laughable. A concept lost on you and other Ukraine war fans.

Quote:

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Meanwhile you hold out for some mythical gallant victory

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Who is saying this? Ukraine has already achieved a sizeable victory by simply existing today. I think the most realistic outcome for them is holding on to what they have plus a little more. They will never retake Crimea. They will never retake most of the Donbass.

texagbeliever said:

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Oh and I would have gotten my family out of the Ukraine along with myself. The idea that Ukraine is some beacon of freedom and opportunity worth fighting for is laughable. A concept lost on you and other Ukraine war fans.

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My home and local community is more important than my government. And I sure as hell wouldn't cede it to foreign invader. You think your average civil war soldier fought for Jefferson Davis? Or did he fight for his home and neighbor?

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Winning the war gives them rights to a wasteland

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Russia sure seems to want that "wasteland" pretty badly...

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Well for them it is a strategic defense barrier. It is a moral victory over the socialist left wing Europe. It has the potential to signal strength and rally support with centrist (politically and geographically) Europe. It also hurt the European and American economy following a recession.

So you see they have more objectives then being able to live their life. Which is the Ukranian rally but that is pointless if a means of life is destroyed thre which is and has happened.

Quote:

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Well for them it is a strategic defense barrier.

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And in doing so they invited NATO into Finland and opened more? It seems you want to reward Russia with a land grab after laying waste to a sovereign neighbor. Why should we allow that?

Teslag said:

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texagbeliever said:

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Oh and I would have gotten my family out of the Ukraine along with myself. The idea that Ukraine is some beacon of freedom and opportunity worth fighting for is laughable. A concept lost on you and other Ukraine war fans.

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My home and local community is more important than my government. And I sure as hell wouldn't cede it to foreign invader. You think your average civil war soldier fought for Jefferson Davis? Or did he fight for his home and neighbor?

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Your argument is fantastic. The elite plantation ruling class of the south waged a war with the north over their economic livelihood and sent the poor working class southerners to fight it for them. Now the elite political class are waging a war using the poor working class Ukranians to shed their blood for the elite's potential riches. Wow now I'm convinced I should be cheering for war. Eyeroll

Teslag said:

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I'm sure you could find some on Russia Today. Should be in your browser favorites.

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Go on, post your source. Lets see it.

Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Meanwhile you hold out for some mythical gallant victory

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Who is saying this? Ukraine has already achieved a sizeable victory by simply existing today. I think the most realistic outcome for them is holding on to what they have plus a little more. They will never retake Crimea. They will never retake most of the Donbass.

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That's like saying A&M won when they were up by 35 at half time. Oh the sumlin Era and the many scars it left.

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sent the poor working class southerners to fight it for them

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Sent? It is estimate that only 6% of confederate soldiers were conscripted. Almost all were volunteers.

PlaneCrashGuy said:

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Teslag said:

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I'm sure you could find some on Russia Today. Should be in your browser favorites.

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Go on, post your source. Lets see it.

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https://liveuamap.com/

You can follow here daily. Ukraine has been steadily advancing, while in very small increments. Now, where do you get yours?

texagbeliever said:

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Teslag said:

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Quote:

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Meanwhile you hold out for some mythical gallant victory

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Who is saying this? Ukraine has already achieved a sizeable victory by simply existing today. I think the most realistic outcome for them is holding on to what they have plus a little more. They will never retake Crimea. They will never retake most of the Donbass.

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That's like saying A&M won when they were up by 35 at half time. Oh the sumlin Era and the many scars it left.

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Russia has no ability to retake sizeable parts of Ukraine. It simply doesn't and won't exist.

ravingfans said:

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Many believe, as I do that the peace negotiated near the first month of this war should have gone through and all would be reasonably well by now. The US "neocons"/Biden, etc wanted the war because it lines their pockets, and have stoked the fires this whole time.

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So, Ukraine should have given up everything in that type right pic? Because, Russia wouldn't have "negotiated" giving them back. Why would they? They already held that land.

Ukraine, surprisingly, doesn't want to give up ANY of that land, though. It's very odd why they feel that way apparently.

They feel that way. Well once they are done feeling perhaps they can start thinking and realizing logic and truth is more important then the feelz.

So you think that Ukraine should just give Russia whatever they want to end the war? Where is the line in which Ukraine should reject and keep fighting?