Russia/Ukraine from Another Perspective (Relaunch Part Deux)

525,966 Views | 9433 Replies | Last: 1 day ago by PlaneCrashGuy
nortex97
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A whole lot of Russian/Chinese/Ukrainian connections, as expected.



I am surprised/didn't know they used so many Romanian banks/payments.
nortex97
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Sigh…



Yep. About right.



I know, the documentation of the corruption is hard to handle.

This one is CNN so I think it is officially approved as a source(c).



nortex97
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The steady lies about expectations for the mythologized 'counter offensive' are sort of funny to review.

Ah, strategery brilliance from the Ukes has…backfired/failed once again.

Russia struck Ukrainian port facilities as one would expect after the bridge attack.

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We also know that Tu-22M3s specifically were up in the air, which typically launch Kh-22s, rather than the Kh-101s the Tu-95 Bears launch. So, all in all, last night was a smorgasbord of missiles which probably included: Kh-59s, Kh-22s, Kh-101s, Kalibrs, Onyx/P-800s, sub-launched P-120s and P-700s, and possibly even others like Kh-35s or Iskander-M or K (R-500) variant, as well as a mass of drones led by Gerans/Shaheds.

In short: it appears Russia has finished off Ukraine's port and grain future.

And presidential advisor Podolyak explains that it's not the carriers but the insurers who won't take up the risk on insuring ships crossing the contested warzone waters:
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Not a single cargo ship will call at the ports of Ukraine on the Black Sea after the termination of the grain deal, Mikhail Podolyak, adviser to the head of the office of the President of Ukraine, admitted on the air of the Rada TV channel.
"No country will dare to send its ships [to the ports of Ukraine]. And this is not a question of ships, this is a question of insurance companies," Podolyak said.

Meanwhile, Russian grain prices logically have leapt:

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Seeing that Ukraine is now doomed and stands no chance, with options running out, the U.S. intelligence state will push to accelerate the above developments so that they can unify Europe under one rule and then preferably use them as the next fodder with which to attempt to dismantle Russia.

In fact, in his new article, MK Bhadrakumar notes that "CDU's leading foreign and defence expert Roderich Kiesewetter (an ex-colonel who headed the Association of Reservists of the Bundeswehr from 2011 to 2016) suggested that if conditions warrant in the Ukraine situation, the Nato should consider to "cut off Kaliningrad from the Russian supply lines. We see how Putin reacts when he is under pressure."

The point being that, slowly, the powers are converging to continue their war on Russia in any way possible once Ukraine is used up and discarded like a wet rag. Unfortunately for them, Russia at that point will be by far the most experienced, powerful, and technologically advanced military nation in the world, having sharpened its teeth on NATO's latest and best thrown into the cauldron of the Ukrainian war.
We've seen them testing the waters before, with Lithuania attempting to blockade Kaliningrad last year by banning Russian trains, as well as the Baltic Sea nations, like Estonia and Finland, threatening to blockade the passage of Russian ships, which I wrote about extensively long ago. They have several means to do this, by extending their maritime economic zone borders and playing other such geographic 'technicality' tricks.

Now, Poland (as well as all of NATO in general) is setting up more and more troops near the Belarus and Kaliningrad border, and the Russian Duma Defense Committee chair already let the cat out the bag, as I mentioned here, about Wagner being positioned in Belarus for the purpose of defending the Suwalki corridor.

My prediction is the following: there are huge tectonic shifts currently underway for which the Ukrainian war serves only as a surface level symbolic playing field. The true play happening beneath the surface are the major moves that BRICS are making. Now that a lot of the long awaited summits and other milestones of the past few months have passed, the next big milestone to look forward to is the BRICS summit on August 24th in South Africa.


Zerohedge: the media and Ukraine, where truth takes a holiday. More are noticing, obviously:

Quote:

Though we may not know about the prevalence of covert information operations for some time, a pair of stories published last month offer a window into some more overt efforts to shape our perception of the war in Ukraine. First, Thomas Gibbons-Neff, a Ukraine correspondent for the New York Times, wrote a viral story detailing how Ukrainian press officers and some Western journalists have tried to downplay, justify, or cover up the use of Nazi symbols by Ukrainian soldiers.

One specific passage tells of Western photojournalists asking their subjects to remove patches with Nazi emblems before taking photos. By doing so, these journalists crossed the line from documenting their subjects to staging them.

On the same day, former New York Times media columnist Ben Smith published an article reporting that many Western journalists have grown frustrated with how the Ukrainian government uses access and accreditation to shape war coverage. For example, the Ukrainian military threatened to revoke a photojournalist's credentials after he took pictures of conscripted soldiers in a trench without the presence or permission of a military press officer.

In another example, an NBC News crew traveled to Crimea to interview residents about the war. After reporting that most people they talked to preferred that Crimea belonged to Russia, the Ukrainian government revoked NBC's credentials and confined their in-country crew to a hotel.

Smith even brings up Thomas Gibbons-Neff from above, who had his access and credentials revoked after reporting on Ukraine's use of banned cluster munitions. There's no question that, at least to some extent, the continual threat of a loss of access affects everyone reporting over there in an official capacity.

This is not a new or unusual technique. The US government used similar tactics to help shape the narrative of its wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Most professional journalists struggle endlessly to find sources. So, by granting extensive access that can always be revoked, governments can run an effective carrot-and-stick ploy to control media coverage.

Our views of war are warped by design. Sure, the Russian regime is mounting a similar effort to control how the Russian people view the war, but it would be absurd to say that the Kremlin holds an influence over the American public that's even comparable to the US or Ukrainian governments.

Despite what the media, the government, or your middle school civics teacher wants you to think, you don't need to frantically keep up with the hourly developments in Eastern Europe to be a good citizen. But if you choose to follow this war, understand which parties have a hand in delivering whatever information you're consuming because not everyone is trying to tell you the truth.
Amen to that. Clown world;


Teslag
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Quote:

We have tried, for 17mo, to help Ukraine defeat Russia w military means. Those efforts have not yielded results.


If it weren't for military means Ukraine wouldn't exist at all today. Those are the only result that matter to them.
texagbeliever
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When I hear generals reporting on massively favorable conditions and then reality failing against it all I can think of is Passchendale. That French general basically slaughtered thousands and thousands of French (his army) because he wanted to win the war before the Americans came. He intentionally lied and decieved the war cabinet to be able to launch his assault. I fear much of the same is happening here.

I think this is worse because it is generals of other countries gladly sending the Ukranians to die for what is really their war too. Those ignorant of history passionately celebrating the needless loss of life as if that makes them brave and courageous are a sad sight to behold (cough trolls on this thread cough).
Teslag
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Quote:

Those ignorant of history passionately celebrating the needless loss of life as if that makes them brave and courageous are a sad sight to behold

Good point. Let's take down the cenotaph in San Antonio and lament that Travis did not roll the red carpet out for Santa Anna.
texagbeliever
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Teslag said:


Quote:

Those ignorant of history passionately celebrating the needless loss of life as if that makes them brave and courageous are a sad sight to behold

Good point. Let's take down the cenotaph in San Antonio and lament that Travis did not roll the red carpet out for Santa Anna.

Thanks for proving my point. The Alamo was more like a victory based on the impact of moral on Texans and Mexicans. It certainly dislocated the mind of Santa Ana which led him to blunder at the battle of San Jacinto.

You narrowly pericve war based on body counts and territory. When history of war shows it more heavily falls on the moral. "The physical is to the moral but 3 to 1" - Napoleon
Teslag
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Do you think the morale of the Ukrainian military is higher today than it was in say, February of 2022 when he entire world expected them to get rolled by the end of March? They fought back, were successful enough that the West decided to go all in, and here they are after a year of taking back a significant portion of land the Russians took last year.

Many posters on this thread believed they should have simply dropped their weapons at the first site of a Russian, and capitulated entirely to Russian occupation.
ravingfans
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Many believe, as I do that the peace negotiated near the first month of this war should have gone through and all would be reasonably well by now. The US "neocons"/Biden, etc wanted the war because it lines their pockets, and have stoked the fires this whole time.
nortex97
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Teslag
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ravingfans said:

Many believe, as I do that the peace negotiated near the first month of this war should have gone through and all would be reasonably well by now. The US "neocons"/Biden, etc wanted the war because it lines their pockets, and have stoked the fires this whole time.

And what were the specifics of that "peace"?
texagbeliever
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Teslag said:

Do you think the morale of the Ukrainian military is higher today than it was in say, February of 2022 when he entire world expected them to get rolled by the end of March? They fought back, were successful enough that the West decided to go all in, and here they are after a year of taking back a significant portion of land the Russians took last year.

Many posters on this thread believed they should have simply dropped their weapons at the first site of a Russian, and capitulated entirely to Russian occupation.

Yes it is weaker. I wrote about this probably tens of pages ago. Though Russia is the aggressor, Ukraine had more urgency to win the war and have decisive moments.

The USA never suspended elections. Even during the Civil War where the greatest chance of losing would come from Lincoln losing the office the USA didn't suspend elections. The fact Ukraine isn't willing to vote on if the people actually will this war should be a huge red flag. It is an admission by Ukraine leadership that the moral is very weak despite the random tweets or war hawking articles you read.

Those posters likely had the foresight to see that the destruction of all industry and economy on top of substantial young adult population would defeat Ukraine even if Ukraine "won". Right now Ukraine is at best going to win a country the inhabitants want to leave.
nortex97
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Correct. This war has already foreclosed a long term future for an independent Ukraine. It has nothing to do with freedom. The emigration, deaths, and utter collapse of live births mean it is over already, this is just other powers playing politics with what is left and their totalitarian (corrupt) government.

There's no point in arguing with some though. True believers can't be reasoned with, they only belittle/disparage heretics.
Teslag
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The lengths people will go to defend, and outright praise, cowardice is something that still fascinates me a year later.
J. Walter Weatherman
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texagbeliever said:

When I hear generals reporting on massively favorable conditions and then reality failing against it all I can think of is Passchendale. That French general basically slaughtered thousands and thousands of French (his army) because he wanted to win the war before the Americans came. He intentionally lied and decieved the war cabinet to be able to launch his assault. I fear much of the same is happening here.

I think this is worse because it is generals of other countries gladly sending the Ukranians to die for what is really their war too. Those ignorant of history passionately celebrating the needless loss of life as if that makes them brave and courageous are a sad sight to behold (cough trolls on this thread cough).


Who is doing this?
texagbeliever
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Sometimes you respond not because you change the posters mind but you perhaps bring a readers mind to ponder the idea.

Tesla, an honest observation from me, unsolicited. You clearly have a strong desire for certainty and a bias for safety. That combination will make you vulnerable to being deceived and misled. Your takes on covid vaccine being exhibit A. Your posting on this thread exhibit B. Covid was dangerous. Russia is dangerous. So in your need to be safe you wanted to be certain in "victory" a vaccine or defeating Russia. It is a very poor prism with which to understand and interact with the world.
texagbeliever
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Anyone who argues this is the "Ukrainians war" and they have a right to die for their country if that's what they want. We have to support them in their struggle because they are heroes. Just is cowardice.
Teslag
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texagbeliever said:

Sometimes you respond not because you change the posters mind but you perhaps bring a readers mind to ponder the idea.

Tesla, an honest observation from me, unsolicited. You clearly have a strong desire for certainty and a bias for safety. That combination will make you vulnerable to being deceived and misled. Your takes on covid vaccine being exhibit A. Your posting on this thread exhibit B. Covid was dangerous. Russia is dangerous. So in your need to be safe you wanted to be certain in "victory" a vaccine or defeating Russia. It is a very poor prism with which to understand and interact with the world.

Thanks doc, I'll make sure and pay the receptionist on the way out.
J. Walter Weatherman
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texagbeliever said:

Anyone who argues this is the "Ukrainians war" and they have a right to die for their country if that's what they want. We have to support them in their struggle because they are heroes. Just is cowardice.


Quite a stretch to call that viewpoint "passionately celebrating the needless loss of life", no? Are you saying Ukrainians don't have a right to die for their country?
nortex97
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From the comments at simplicius' update I linked above today:

Quote:

FYI: The **** is hitting the fan at an astonishing pace in Germany. The state of Lower Saxony (which is the heartland of Social Democrats of whom Chancelor Scholtz is a member and the seat of Volkswagen) has made a strident appeal to the federal government to lower energy prices ASAP but no later than the end of the year. The letter is cosigned by all unions and the representatives of industry. By German standards this is close to an insurrection. For whoever reads German:

https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/plus246444530/Energiepreise-Die-Sorge-vor-dem-wirtschaftlichen-GAU-und-der-laute-Hilferuf-an-Scholz.html

The federal government will not for long be able to continue with its green fantasies. That is supplant Russian gas with renewables and fracking gas from the US. I know from a participant that Peer Steinbrck, a leading member of the ruling SPD, told a gathering of bankers in Munich last summer that soon there will be Russian gas again. Then the pipelines were blown up... Remember what NATO is for: US in, Germany down and Russia out. The US empire in action...
This is all very interesting to watch play out politically in Europe. Surface level/long time ruling party decisions like with the SPD in Germany I think are under great strain for change. I don't know how it will play out, but I don't think the status quo will persist.
Teslag
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J. Walter Weatherman said:

texagbeliever said:

Anyone who argues this is the "Ukrainians war" and they have a right to die for their country if that's what they want. We have to support them in their struggle because they are heroes. Just is cowardice.


Quite a stretch to call that viewpoint "passionately celebrating the needless loss of life", no? Are you saying Ukrainians don't have a right to die for their country?

Where this faux concern for the Ukrainian always falls apart is when the pusher of such falls right in line with Kremlin talking points, pro-Russian viewpoints on the cause of the war, etc.

As I have always said, there are just criticisms for our involvement and financial contribution. There is however no excuse to echo Russian propaganda and outright supporting their occupation.
FJB24
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Teslag said:

J. Walter Weatherman said:

texagbeliever said:

Anyone who argues this is the "Ukrainians war" and they have a right to die for their country if that's what they want. We have to support them in their struggle because they are heroes. Just is cowardice.


Quite a stretch to call that viewpoint "passionately celebrating the needless loss of life", no? Are you saying Ukrainians don't have a right to die for their country?

Where this faux concern for the Ukrainian always falls apart is when the pusher of such falls right in line with Kremlin talking points, pro-Russian viewpoints on the cause of the war, etc.

As I have always said, there are just criticisms for our involvement and financial contribution. There is however no excuse to echo Russian propaganda and outright supporting their occupation.
Such BS. No one is obligated to clear what they read with you.

When you've trolled this thread for months, and repeatedly said you want to see 'Russian bodies stacked far and wide' don't pretend you have some sort of moral high ground to demand others exclaim to your satisfaction concern for UFA lives. Seriously, get a life. You convince no one, and just make more and more folks hate whatever it is you adopt as your cause celebre with your incessant over the top cheerleading and patronizing insults.

The quicker the UFA is utterly crushed the better/safer we all will be, and it will save us money too.

https://www.rt.com/russia/579897-europes-black-hole-ukraine/
Teslag
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We just outright quoting Russia Today now?


Quote:

The quicker the UFA is utterly crushed

And no one here is wanting Russia to win...
texagbeliever
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J. Walter Weatherman said:

texagbeliever said:

Anyone who argues this is the "Ukrainians war" and they have a right to die for their country if that's what they want. We have to support them in their struggle because they are heroes. Just is cowardice.


Quite a stretch to call that viewpoint "passionately celebrating the needless loss of life", no? Are you saying Ukrainians don't have a right to die for their country?

Not really. They are fake risk taking at the expense of others. Any measure of hyperbole is warranted calling out such selfishness. I have read sufficient number of posts celebrating death on this thread that I would say calling it hyperbole is a stretch. You have too but are choosing to stick your head in the sand and claim the I didn't see it argument.
ABATTBQ11
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texagbeliever said:

Anyone who argues this is the "Ukrainians war" and they have a right to die for their country if that's what they want. We have to support them in their struggle because they are heroes. Just is cowardice.


Capitulation in the face of aggression is cowardice. I'm sure if someone broke into your home, raped your wife, door your kids, and kicked you out at gunpoint you'd just say, "Hey, it's ok. You take the house and all the stuff. Here's the deed, too. Hope you enjoy it!"
texagbeliever
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It is undeniable that the FACT this thread staff allows discussion and varying viewpoints (also trolling) but the rah rah Ukraine thread gets you banned and comments deleted ala Covid board even when reasonable if they aren't pro-ukraine.

You guys have your safe space then come and cry here that this space isn't safe enough for you. Grow up. Please.
ABATTBQ11
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texagbeliever said:

J. Walter Weatherman said:

texagbeliever said:

Anyone who argues this is the "Ukrainians war" and they have a right to die for their country if that's what they want. We have to support them in their struggle because they are heroes. Just is cowardice.


Quite a stretch to call that viewpoint "passionately celebrating the needless loss of life", no? Are you saying Ukrainians don't have a right to die for their country?

Not really. They are fake risk taking at the expense of others. Any measure of hyperbole is warranted calling out such selfishness. I have read sufficient number of posts celebrating death on this thread that I would say calling it hyperbole is a stretch. You have too but are choosing to stick your head in the sand and claim the I didn't see it argument.


"Fake risk taking at the expense of others?" Is this serious? The Ukrainians are certainly not, "fake risk taking." You're sitting here talking about how they should be turning tail and giving up because there's too much "needless death" and then saying that the risk they're taking is fake?
texagbeliever
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ABATTBQ11 said:

texagbeliever said:

Anyone who argues this is the "Ukrainians war" and they have a right to die for their country if that's what they want. We have to support them in their struggle because they are heroes. Just is cowardice.


Capitulation in the face of aggression is cowardice. I'm sure if someone broke into your home, raped your wife, door your kids, and kicked you out at gunpoint you'd just say, "Hey, it's ok. You take the house and all the stuff. Here's the deed, too. Hope you enjoy it!"

You are bad at metaphors.

This is more likely someone breaking into your neighbors house and you saying fight to the death even though you are outnumbered 100-1. Maybe you send him some bullets via a drone.
The smarter choice is to concede the house because losing is inevitable and wait for a more strategic opportunity to get it back. There is this thing called the FUTURE it follows the present. You hyper prioritize the present with no regard to the future. Very short sided.

Also notice the bravado of this vulgar post. If you aren't with us you are a weakling who would be cool with wife being raped and kids being killed. You are insecure.
texagbeliever
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ABATTBQ11 said:

texagbeliever said:

J. Walter Weatherman said:

texagbeliever said:

Anyone who argues this is the "Ukrainians war" and they have a right to die for their country if that's what they want. We have to support them in their struggle because they are heroes. Just is cowardice.


Quite a stretch to call that viewpoint "passionately celebrating the needless loss of life", no? Are you saying Ukrainians don't have a right to die for their country?

Not really. They are fake risk taking at the expense of others. Any measure of hyperbole is warranted calling out such selfishness. I have read sufficient number of posts celebrating death on this thread that I would say calling it hyperbole is a stretch. You have too but are choosing to stick your head in the sand and claim the I didn't see it argument.


"Fake risk taking at the expense of others?" It's this serious? The Ukrainians are certainly not, "fake risk taking." You're sitting here talking about how they should be turning tail and giving up because there's too much "needless death" and then saying that the risk they're taking is fake?

They is obviously the posters on this thread. At least try to not show your reading comprehension is so poor.
fka ftc
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Teslag said:

texagbeliever said:

Sometimes you respond not because you change the posters mind but you perhaps bring a readers mind to ponder the idea.

Tesla, an honest observation from me, unsolicited. You clearly have a strong desire for certainty and a bias for safety. That combination will make you vulnerable to being deceived and misled. Your takes on covid vaccine being exhibit A. Your posting on this thread exhibit B. Covid was dangerous. Russia is dangerous. So in your need to be safe you wanted to be certain in "victory" a vaccine or defeating Russia. It is a very poor prism with which to understand and interact with the world.

Thanks doc, I'll make sure and pay the receptionist on the way out.


You should have to pay for their counsel and advice but they were nice and provided it for free.

Your entire contribution to this thread is a trolling retort of "support Ukraine at all costs and if you don't you are a pro Putin puppet parroting Soviet propaganda. Viva Ukraine! God save Zelensky, rah rah rah!".

I have yet to see any response that attempts to engage in actual discussion of any article or update or opinion that is anywhere remotely critical of Ukraine.

That's just bizarre. But you be you. Just know you push people further away from even considering support for Ukraine when you take such extreme positions.
Teslag
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The idea that you believe fighting against subjugation from a hostile invasion is an "extreme position" calls into question who is really doing the "trollng" here.

Teslag
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Quote:

The smarter choice is to concede the house because losing is inevitable

But it wasn't. Everyone thought Ukraine would "lose the house" to Russia. They didn't. They still have a country and are regaining more of it every day. I'd rather have my home burned to the ground and the ruins be mine than leave it be in the hands of another by force.

You may differ.
nortex97
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Support continues to drop for the endless war for corruption:

Quote:

Rep. Dan Bishop, R-N.C., a member of the ultraconservative House Freedom Caucus, told USA TODAY he will not support a Ukraine funding supplemental bill.

"There's been zero accountability, zero strategy and zero plan to end the conflict from the Biden administration," Bishop said. "They want to ratchet up our involvement and make the taxpayers foot the bill.

"It's alarming, and I don't see how anyone rational can continue to support this blank-check policy."




There's more work to do, of course.
fka ftc
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Yes another nonsensical response. Congrats…?
ABATTBQ11
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texagbeliever said:

ABATTBQ11 said:

texagbeliever said:

Anyone who argues this is the "Ukrainians war" and they have a right to die for their country if that's what they want. We have to support them in their struggle because they are heroes. Just is cowardice.


Capitulation in the face of aggression is cowardice. I'm sure if someone broke into your home, raped your wife, door your kids, and kicked you out at gunpoint you'd just say, "Hey, it's ok. You take the house and all the stuff. Here's the deed, too. Hope you enjoy it!"

You are bad at metaphors.

This is more likely someone breaking into your neighbors house and you saying fight to the death even though you are outnumbered 100-1. Maybe you send him some bullets via a drone.
The smarter choice is to concede the house because losing is inevitable and wait for a more strategic opportunity to get it back. There is this thing called the FUTURE it follows the present. You hyper prioritize the present with no regard to the future. Very short sided.

Also notice the bravado of this vulgar post. If you aren't with us you are a weakling who would be cool with wife being raped and kids being killed. You are insecure.


I'm bad at metaphors? No one is telling the Ukrainians they have to fight. They're the ones asking for more weapons to continue. If you want to go with the someone breaking into your neighbor's house metaphor, or would be more accurate to say they came over asking for bullets and a gun to shoot some intruders and you handed them over. The second the Ukrainians don't want to fight anymore, they'll stop.

There is not going to be a more strategically favorable point to take back their land. Capitulating now gives Russia all the time it needs to build more defenses, build permanent military infrastructure, rearm, and replenish its stockpiles. This is not rocket science. What you're advocating is simply the denial of reality and cowardice.

Nice ad hominem there at the end, too.
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