Russia/Ukraine from Another Perspective (Relaunch Part Deux)

483,237 Views | 9115 Replies | Last: 3 hrs ago by Ag with kids
GAC06
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Well this is the "other perspective" thread so I guess we can listen to Russians about what got shot down.

https://www.ivanovonews.ru/news/1343454/



nortex97
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Sure, a BBC correspondent from Kiev followed by Rob Lee and ISW, that is…credible. Quite the "pro-Russian" perspective you dug up there. C'mon, man.
PlaneCrashGuy
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Could you articulate why you think that Twitter account belongs to a Russian? The profile location is Kyiv, Ukraine....
GAC06
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He's citing a Russian source.

Like the Russian news outlet I linked above.

They're probably all covering up the countermeasure equipped civilian transport that was flying an AWACS track got smoked though.
Mongolian Christmas
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I for one don't believe it unless it's on video set to death metal.
John Armfield
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GAC06 said:

Well this is the "other perspective" thread so I guess we can listen to Russians about what got shot down.

https://www.ivanovonews.ru/news/1343454/




Ok and this wont stop Russia from advancing.
John Armfield
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PlaneCrashGuy said:

Could you articulate why you think that Twitter account belongs to a Russian? The profile location is Kyiv, Ukraine....
Anything negative about UKE is RusSSian ProPagAnDA to UKE fan boys
GAC06
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John Armfield said:

GAC06 said:

Well this is the "other perspective" thread so I guess we can listen to Russians about what got shot down.

https://www.ivanovonews.ru/news/1343454/




Ok and this wont stop Russia from advancing.


It didn't happen.

Ok it happened but who cares.

Next up:

Russia is actually stronger now because of the loss
nortex97
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GAC06 said:

He's citing a Russian source.

Like the Russian news outlet I linked above.

They're probably all covering up the countermeasure equipped civilian transport that was flying an AWACS track got smoked though.
A russian source in Cyrillic from 2 days ago before the propaganda press was revealed. Sorry, I don't actually speak Russian, despite what some might claim. If someone tracks down a credible source I am happy to confirm/agree, but right now all the 'neutral' and 'pro-Russian' ones I have seen indicate this was probably a friendly fire takedown of the IL-76, non A-50 version. And for the third time, I posted a video of an IL-76 similar model using flares demonstratively, which obviously no one doubts, as that has been studiously ignored.

But again, I concede it's not a real big deal even if I'm wrong about that, and it was an A-50. After all, it's never been explained to me what the A-50 actually does effectively? Guide defenses against cruise missiles? Not really. Assist with some anti-air defenses (against Ukrainian Air Force?). I guess, but the UAF doesn't really even try to compete in the air today with MiG-29's etc. especially near the front lines. Detect attacks into Russia to give time to move assets/civilians? I haven't seen the Russians react to actual drone/missile strikes on the basis of such alerts 'in the air.' Their ground based interceptors (s300/S400 etc) are operated locally/regionally, from what I have seen, without actual datalinks/targeting from an airborne system.



PlaneCrashGuy
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I guess the "stalemate" narrative is officially over. Lines must be moving too quickly. "Russia has no ability to mount an offensive" but also 'we need to pass this aid right now.' Yeah ok bud

nortex97
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That two week break is because Xiden refuses to even meet with Speaker Johnson to discuss the American border.
docb
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nortex97 said:

That two week break is because Xiden refuses to even meet with Speaker Johnson to discuss the American border.
Which is ridiculous since the two are totally unrelated and should not hinge on each other. I am all for securing our border. Just build a freaking wall and be done with it.
Teslag
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Quote:

Russia is actually stronger now because of the loss

Oh you can be sure that one will happen.


nortex97
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docb said:

nortex97 said:

That two week break is because Xiden refuses to even meet with Speaker Johnson to discuss the American border.
Which is ridiculous since the two are totally unrelated and should not hinge on each other. I am all for securing our border. Just build a freaking wall and be done with it.
Demanding legislative mass amnesty, continued invasion, and 5K+ per day free entry well past Xiden's current term, in exchange for "Ukraine" aid is what the Democrats are all, in unison, doing. I do agree that is a ridiculous negotiating position, which actually Lankford/McConnell agreed to as well.

Finally, note today Zelensky the wonderful light worker is demanding soldiers now make 5x civilian pay (and of course wants American taxpayers to pay it all). Forever war$!
Stat Monitor Repairman
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Get the sense that France is softening its stance on Ukraine.

Chatter of EU members becoming more involved as of late.

Wonder whats prompted this shift?
nortex97
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It's not really unusual for the French to talk a lot. What they don't have is an ability to project and deploy military forces on the ground, and sustain it anywhere, certainly clear to Ukraine. The same is true of the rest of the Euro powers, to be frank, outside of perhaps a small capability from the UK, but their entire standing army is only around 70K I believe.

The folks closest to Ukraine in the EU have zero intent/desire to send their actual military folks/units there. The bloviators to the west also can't, and further are facing a political insurrection at home by farmers and the right wing domestically (in the UK, France, Denmark, and Germany see the farmer protests etc) so they just want to show some sort of verbal strength. Also note Italian PM just lost a big regional election with more to come this summer. Keep in mind the EU is only going to hit around 1/3 of their revised 155mm shell commitment by April, per saint zelensky himself this week.

Quote:

Quote:

The Czech Republic is not going to send its military personnel to Ukraine.

This was stated by Czech Prime Minister Petr Fiala, who is taking part in a conference in support of Ukraine taking place in Paris.

Earlier today, Slovak Prime Minister Robert Fico said that some EU and NATO countries are thinking about sending their military to Ukraine on the basis of bilateral agreements.
Quote:

Read between the lines.

So yesterday, all day long, we discussed the message leaked by Slovak Prime Minister Fico that EU countries are thinking about sending their military contingents to Ukraine.

Many leaders of European countries began to deny, but then French President Macron said that this topic was discussed, but did not come to a common conclusion, but they discussed the case of increasing the rapid supply of ammunition and weapons to Kyiv.

Since the Europeans are starting to discuss this scenario, it means things are bad at the front and many in the EU are already talking about Kyiv's capitulation, and many forces in the EU are proposing to get involved in the case of cutting Ukraine apart by introducing "certain contingents" there, mainly to the western part of Ukraine.

The source also adds that this is POSSIBLY an attempt by the EU to bargain with the Russian Federation on the case of the terms of a future peace treaty in the Ukrainian crisis. The Kremlin's conditions were announced behind the scenes to the Europeans, but they cannot fulfill them, so they are publicly raising the stakes.

Oh well 'bilateral agreements' sounds like a commitment but it isn't. It's not a treaty, and it's not a group of countries (which would need to be led by the US) providing a combined force. It's the diplomatic equivalent of trash talking from the bench in a basketball game.

Anyway, Americans owe Ukraine nothing;

Quote:

Harvard professor Graham Allison, famous for his theory of the "Thucydides Trap," which posits that a rising global power will challenge the existing global leader for preeminence, writes in The National Interest that the United States owes Ukraine and its courageous people much more than the $75 billion in military and non-military assistance we have provided in the last two years for Ukraine's weakening of Russia's military threat to Europe for at least a decade. All of that, Allison cheers, "[w]ithout the loss of a single American soldier." Never mind the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians who have suffered and died as a result of a war that Allison and others in the U.S. and Europe apparently want to continue until Russia leaves Ukrainian territory. And Allison chides Republicans in the House of Representatives who oppose "essential assistance to Ukraine" for trying to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Victory, according to Allison, is fighting Russia until it will negotiate with Ukraine to end the war. How many more Ukrainian lives will have to be sacrificed for securing the independence of its eastern provinces and Crimea? From his safe and secure perch in Cambridge, Massachusetts, Allison calls upon Congress, much to the glee of the military-industrial complex, to pour billions more into the fight against Russia so that Vladimir Putin's "military threat to NATO" can be further diminished.

None of this, of course, fits within Professor Allison's "Thucydides Trap" formula. Russia is not the rising power that threatens America's leadership of the "rules-based international order" --whatever that is. China, not Russia, is the world's rising power, and it is China, not Russia, that poses the greatest challenge to American security. Russia's "military threat" to Europe and NATO has been exaggerated to justify the ongoing efforts to fuel the Ukraine war. How is a country whose armed forces are having a difficult time holding on to Ukraine's eastern provinces and Crimea going to overrun Western Europe? Allison and other Ukraine war champions appear to be locked in a Cold War mindset where Europe and the United States need to keep watch on the Fulda Gap for Russian tanks attempting to sweep across Europe to the English Channel. Presumably, even Vladimir Putin knows that scenario is a fantasy.

What is not a fantasy is the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian and Russian dead, the physical destruction of parts of Ukraine, and the very real danger of escalation--including nuclear escalation--if the war continues to grind on. Allison mentions none of that in his article. Instead, he invokes CIA Director and former Ambassador to Moscow William Burns (whom he calls "our nation's most insightful Russia watcher") to support his call for continuing to fuel the war--the same William Burns who in 1995 as a political officer in our embassy in Moscow warnedWashington that "hostility to early NATO expansion is almost universally felt across the political spectrum, and who later as Ambassador to Russia in 2008 wrote in a memo that "Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for the Russian elite (not just Putin)." "In more than two and a half years of conversations with key Russian players . . .," Burns noted, "I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests." "Russia," Burns explained, "would view further eastward expansion [of NATO] as a potential military threat. NATO enlargement, particularly to Ukraine, remains 'an emotional and neuralgic' issue for Russia, but strategic policy considerations also underlie strong opposition to NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia." Burns admitted in 2019 that he viewed NATO expansion as early as the mid-1990s as "needlessly provocative" as evidenced by Boris Yeltsin's strong opposition voiced in 1994.
Proxy war pimp Gen. Ben Hodges being mocked in Time magazine is pretty funny;









nortex97
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What a fascinating turn of events this year has been, so far.
PlaneCrashGuy
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GIF map
willtackleforfood
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PlaneCrashGuy
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willtackleforfood said:





"Unprovoked invasion"
Teslag
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PlaneCrashGuy said:

willtackleforfood said:





"Unprovoked invasion"


Ukraine has a right to host whatever foreign government they want without fear of hostile invasion.
PlaneCrashGuy
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Teslag said:

PlaneCrashGuy said:

willtackleforfood said:





"Unprovoked invasion"


Ukraine has a right to host whatever foreign government they want without fear of hostile invasion.


FAFO
Teslag
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PlaneCrashGuy said:

GIF map


Wow. If Russia maintains this pace they may be rolling into Kiev for my grand great kids to see.
Ags4DaWin
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Teslag said:

PlaneCrashGuy said:

willtackleforfood said:





"Unprovoked invasion"


Ukraine has a right to host whatever foreign government they want without fear of hostile invasion.
policy that caused the Cuban Missile crisis says differently.

Once again- ur position which I admire for its consistent hypocrisy is that the US can invade and meddle and do whatever it wants inside other countries in the name of national security and its okay

If Russia does so they are in the moral wrong and we should start stacking Russian bodies.
Teslag
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We also don't have the right to invade foreign countries simply because they host foreign intelligence agencies. Do you think we would be justified in sending in the 82nd Airborne and 1st Cav into Mexico and then launching cruise missiles into Mexico City if they hosted Chinese spy agencies?

I don't.
Teslag
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For those following along at home. This line circled in red shows Russia's "offensive" advance since October.

PlaneCrashGuy
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Teslag said:

For those following along at home. This line circled in red shows Russia's "offensive" advance since October.




Thanks for posting. Does this mean Uke has stopped the advance?
Ags4DaWin
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Teslag said:

We also don't have the right to invade foreign countries simply because they host foreign intelligence agencies. Do you think we would be justified in sending in the 82nd Airborne and 1st Cav into Mexico and then launching cruise missiles into Mexico City if they hosted Chinese spy agencies?

I don't.


Cool. Now do every middle east incursion since the 80's
Teslag
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PlaneCrashGuy said:

Teslag said:

For those following along at home. This line circled in red shows Russia's "offensive" advance since October.




Thanks for posting. Does this mean Uke has stopped the advance?

Doesn't look like there's much to stop...
Teslag
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Ags4DaWin said:

Teslag said:

We also don't have the right to invade foreign countries simply because they host foreign intelligence agencies. Do you think we would be justified in sending in the 82nd Airborne and 1st Cav into Mexico and then launching cruise missiles into Mexico City if they hosted Chinese spy agencies?

I don't.


Cool. Now do every middle east incursion since the 80's

You mean the Gulf War? The one where we (and basically the entire UN) only got involved AFTER Iraq invaded a sovereign nation?
PlaneCrashGuy
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Teslag said:

PlaneCrashGuy said:

Teslag said:

For those following along at home. This line circled in red shows Russia's "offensive" advance since October.




Thanks for posting. Does this mean Uke has stopped the advance?

Doesn't look like there's much to stop...


Then zoom in so you can pay closer attention.
Teslag
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PlaneCrashGuy said:

Teslag said:

PlaneCrashGuy said:

Teslag said:

For those following along at home. This line circled in red shows Russia's "offensive" advance since October.




Thanks for posting. Does this mean Uke has stopped the advance?

Doesn't look like there's much to stop...


Then zoom in so you can pay closer attention.

I'll make sure my great grand kids are giving yours credit when Russia finally rolls into Kiev. Congrats.
Ags4DaWin
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Teslag said:

Ags4DaWin said:

Teslag said:

We also don't have the right to invade foreign countries simply because they host foreign intelligence agencies. Do you think we would be justified in sending in the 82nd Airborne and 1st Cav into Mexico and then launching cruise missiles into Mexico City if they hosted Chinese spy agencies?

I don't.


Cool. Now do every middle east incursion since the 80's

You mean the Gulf War? The one where we (and basically the entire UN) only got involved AFTER Iraq invaded a sovereign nation?


Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq 2, Yemen bombings....take ur pick

Additionally u deflected on the Cuban Missile crisis.

Was the US right to threaten war and nukes over Cuba allowing Russia bases there? Or do u still hold that a foreign country is allowed to host whoever they want, your national security concerns be damned.
Teslag
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Ags4DaWin said:

Teslag said:

Ags4DaWin said:

Teslag said:

We also don't have the right to invade foreign countries simply because they host foreign intelligence agencies. Do you think we would be justified in sending in the 82nd Airborne and 1st Cav into Mexico and then launching cruise missiles into Mexico City if they hosted Chinese spy agencies?

I don't.


Cool. Now do every middle east incursion since the 80's

You mean the Gulf War? The one where we (and basically the entire UN) only got involved AFTER Iraq invaded a sovereign nation?


Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq 2, Yemen bombings....take ur pick

We should not be in Syria. It's a civil war and they have a right to align with whoever they want to.

Iraq 1 was justified. 2 was not.

Afghanistan was justified as they were hosting a terrorist organization that directly attacked us and caused thousands of American lives.

Yemen was also hosting hostile groups that are directly attacking us and our allies.
Teslag
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AG

Quote:

Was the US right to threaten war and nukes over Cuba allowing Russia bases there?

We were in the wrong. Cuba had a right to seek an alliance to protect their interests in whatever way they wished.
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